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The REF

Dillon Brooks Has to Go

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2 hours ago, My man Allen said:

George Hill was never as good as Dillon.

 

Yeah, looking at the numbers you are probably right, I just remember the spurs being torn about whether to trade him or make some moves to be able to extend him without going into the tax. But the point still remains it was a risk to give up a productive player that they had drafted and developed and was Pop's favorite player at the time, but the risk paid off and had they not ****** off Kawhi and his uncle over how they handled his injury they might have even more trophies in their case as a result of taking that risk, but as it stands he still brought them one more than we currently have.

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5 minutes ago, KyleB said:

Yeah, looking at the numbers you are probably right, I just remember the spurs being torn about whether to trade him or make some moves to be able to extend him without going into the tax. But the point still remains it was a risk to give up a productive player that they had drafted and developed and was Pop's favorite player at the time, but the risk paid off and had they not ****** off Kawhi and his uncle over how they handled his injury they might have even more trophies in their case as a result of taking that risk but as it stands he brought them one more than we currently have,

It's always difficult to trade a player that has promise, especially for a rookie who played at a mid-major school. Pops made a gutsy call there but he clearly liked more of what he saw in Kawhi than he did in what he knew from Hill. Friendship and affection are one thing but titles and wins are more important to Pops. 

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6 hours ago, KyleB said:

You gotta take risks. Lets say Brooks plus pick # 29 is enough to get the 15th pick from Charlotte. Kawhi was taken at 15 and San Antonio had to take a risk in giving up George Hill to get that pick, Hill was as good a player at the time as Brooks is now. What if Tari Eason is the next Kawhi and we could have had him at 15 and all it would have cost us is a guy in the last year of his contract who we had our best season ever with him out injured for most of the year?

Now if it would require us to use our cap space and take Hayward back then you could say it cost us Tyus and Kyle too because we would have to denounce rights on both of them to clear the cap space but do we even want to resign Kyle and does Tyus even want to resign with us? If no then I'd do the deal in a heartbeat. And Hayward if he manages to stay healthy is a player who can help us win now too, I wouldn't count on him being healthy but if he were it would be another bonus to the trade.

Imagine we do this deal and pick up Eason at 15 and then Jalen Williams or Dalen Terry is still there for us at 22, that would be one hell of a draft. All through the Timberwolves series there was talk about how we need more size/length in the backcourt and on the wing, if this trade and draft were to play out where we got Eason at 15 and Williams or Terry at 22 that need would be addressed significantly. 

 

5 hours ago, My man Allen said:

George Hill was never as good as Dillon.

 

I agree with this mainly because I value Dillon's defense more than George Hill's steadiness. Plus George Hill is a PG, one of the easiest positions to find serviceable player. Where Dillon is a big wing who can defend and make 3's, the hardest thing to find. Throw in the fact that George Hill was the backup to Tony Parker, who only started 5 of the 76 games he appeared in the prior season, and the George Hill scenario is more like trading Tyus Jones for a mid lottery pick, which I would do if we could but we can't.

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8 hours ago, My man Allen said:

George Hill was never as good as Dillon.

 

I know they play different positions, and are quite different players, but i disagree with this one.

If you're looking at points scored, he's never scored as many as Dillon, but he's always been much more efficient (he had a quite a few seasons where he shot >40% from 3 and has only had one season below 55% TS%)

Alot of the advanced stats aren't available for the period covering the early part of Hill's career, but even in more recent years when Hill's been past his best he's rated pretty well compared to Dillon as a defender.

Over Hill's whole career, there's only been one season where he has had a negative VORP (2020-21), whereas Dillon is yet to have a positive VORP his whole career.

I know he gets the hard assignments, and he gets an A for effort from me, but I've never seen any stat that supports this narrative that Dillon is a really good defender. He's OK to good, but I think that because he is about all the Grizz have on the roster to match-up with the big wings he gets alot more credit on that end than his play deserves.

I like Dillon and his competiveness and effort (and most of the time even his irrational confidence in his own ability) , but for me it's the one spot on the roster that would really move the needle if they could get an upgrade. ZW is showing some promise, but has a way to go.

It's a tough spot to fill though. Most teams in the league want the same type of player.

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6 hours ago, MisterT said:

I know they play different positions, and are quite different players, but i disagree with this one.

If you're looking at points scored, he's never scored as many as Dillon, but he's always been much more efficient (he had a quite a few seasons where he shot >40% from 3 and has only had one season below 55% TS%)

Alot of the advanced stats aren't available for the period covering the early part of Hill's career, but even in more recent years when Hill's been past his best he's rated pretty well compared to Dillon as a defender.

Over Hill's whole career, there's only been one season where he has had a negative VORP (2020-21), whereas Dillon is yet to have a positive VORP his whole career.

I know he gets the hard assignments, and he gets an A for effort from me, but I've never seen any stat that supports this narrative that Dillon is a really good defender. He's OK to good, but I think that because he is about all the Grizz have on the roster to match-up with the big wings he gets alot more credit on that end than his play deserves.

I like Dillon and his competiveness and effort (and most of the time even his irrational confidence in his own ability) , but for me it's the one spot on the roster that would really move the needle if they could get an upgrade. ZW is showing some promise, but has a way to go.

It's a tough spot to fill though. Most teams in the league want the same type of player.

I hope ZW takes the step like Bane did for year 2 

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3 hours ago, grizzgolf said:

I hope ZW takes the step like Bane did for year 2 

Me too..He surprised me a bit later in the season with how much he improved after being pretty terrible at the start of the year.

His shooting seemed to be coming good, he seemed to be figuring things out on defence (although still lots to work on on that end), and was just generally looking more confident and comfortable. Promising signs he could end up really good.

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12 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

@lsugrizzfan I was with you up to the pg is the easiest to find…

Look around the league, no position is more loaded top to bottom. Very few teams are searching for a PG. They are all looking for big wings and versatile big men.

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

 

We were better than the Warriors, they just happened to be healthier. We didn't have our starting lineup once against them. Adams missed the first 3, Ja missed the last 3, Dillon missed 2 full games essentially, Bane was injured for the first 4 games. And we lost two games by a combined 4 points despite that, with shots to take the lead in both with under 20 seconds left. 

Just goes back to my point that we certainly don't need to make major changes. Not even major tweaks. We were right there. We could've beat the Warriors in 5 games, and if we had Ja and Adams the entire time, we most likely do that. I firmly believe with Adams in game one, they're aren't about to out-rebound us, and that game probably isn't that close. And in game 4, Ja would've taken away shots from Dillon and Jaren (mostly Dillon), who weren't very efficient. The Warriors couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that night and we just couldn't score. 

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1 minute ago, Rdk4121 said:

We were better than the Warriors, they just happened to be healthier. We didn't have our starting lineup once against them. Adams missed the first 3, Ja missed the last 3, Dillon missed 2 full games essentially, Bane was injured for the first 4 games. And we lost two games by a combined 4 points despite that, with shots to take the lead in both with under 20 seconds left. 

Just goes back to my point that we certainly don't need to make major changes. Not even major tweaks. We were right there. We could've beat the Warriors in 5 games, and if we had Ja and Adams the entire time, we most likely do that. I firmly believe with Adams in game one, they're aren't about to out-rebound us, and that game probably isn't that close. And in game 4, Ja would've taken away shots from Dillon and Jaren (mostly Dillon), who weren't very efficient. The Warriors couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that night and we just couldn't score. 

Warriors couldn't hit anything cuz DB and Jaren were locking em down. DB still has best defensive rtg against Curry then anyone else in Playoffs i believe.   

I think only tweaks we need to make are simply replacing Tyus and Kyle rotation spots with either a better scorer or shooter.   No more Tyus+Ja or Kyle +BC lineup madness.    I don't think its very hard to upgrade their positions via  either FA or Trade.   I think it is much harder to replace Dillon.  I also think Ja Bane Dillon Adams and Jaren will be on a MISSION come next season and our starting lineup will  terrorize the league.       

I really wish Melton would learn to play PG because that would make upgrading the bench SO MUCH SIMPLER.  I don't think we need to some all-in type deal either for like a Lavine or Beal.   All we need is a bench scorer type - TJ Warren comes to mind. 

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6 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

 

And we will again 

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4 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Warriors couldn't hit anything cuz DB and Jaren were locking em down. DB still has best defensive rtg against Curry then anyone else in Playoffs i believe.   

I think only tweaks we need to make are simply replacing Tyus and Kyle rotation spots with either a better scorer or shooter.   No more Tyus+Ja or Kyle +BC lineup madness.    I don't think its very hard to upgrade their positions via  either FA or Trade.   I think it is much harder to replace Dillon.  I also think Ja Bane Dillon Adams and Jaren will be on a MISSION come next season and our starting lineup will  terrorize the league.       

I really wish Melton would learn to play PG because that would make upgrading the bench SO MUCH SIMPLER.  I don't think we need to some all-in type deal either for like a Lavine or Beal.   All we need is a bench scorer type - TJ Warren comes to mind. 

Great post. I agree. It makes for a dull offseason though.

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6 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Warriors couldn't hit anything cuz DB and Jaren were locking em down. DB still has best defensive rtg against Curry then anyone else in Playoffs i believe.   

I think only tweaks we need to make are simply replacing Tyus and Kyle rotation spots with either a better scorer or shooter.   No more Tyus+Ja or Kyle +BC lineup madness.    I don't think its very hard to upgrade their positions via  either FA or Trade.   I think it is much harder to replace Dillon.  I also think Ja Bane Dillon Adams and Jaren will be on a MISSION come next season and our starting lineup will  terrorize the league.       

I really wish Melton would learn to play PG because that would make upgrading the bench SO MUCH SIMPLER.  I don't think we need to some all-in type deal either for like a Lavine or Beal.   All we need is a bench scorer type - TJ Warren comes to mind. 

I really don't see how you can call those lineups/pairings "madness" when we tied the franchise season win total doing it.  Seems a rather foolish assumption.

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3 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

I really don't see how you can call those lineups/pairings "madness" when we tied the franchise season win total doing it.  Seems a rather foolish assumption.

Because they were usually a net negative rtg when on the floor.   Is it so hard to understand that not all Player pairings work?  We didn't win games because of those pairings we won games in spite of them. 

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21 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Because they were usually a net negative rtg when on the floor.   Is it so hard to understand that not all Player pairings work?  We didn't win games because of those pairings we won games in spite of them. 

To elaborate on your point the BC/ Kyle pairing was -1.9 in 327 minutes, though the Ja/ Tyus pairing will surprise you as they were +12.8, but in only 194 minutes. Kyle and Ja were a terrible pairing though as the were -0.4, which was Ja's only negative rating in the top 10 of his 2 man pairings. Kyle made most of the people he played with worse, and he was a -4.5 for On/Off. That was only ahead of Tillman and Culver for main roster guys.

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1 hour ago, Rdk4121 said:

To elaborate on your point the BC/ Kyle pairing was -1.9 in 327 minutes, though the Ja/ Tyus pairing will surprise you as they were +12.8, but in only 194 minutes. Kyle and Ja were a terrible pairing though as the were -0.4, which was Ja's only negative rating in the top 10 of his 2 man pairings. Kyle made most of the people he played with worse, and he was a -4.5 for On/Off. That was only ahead of Tillman and Culver for main roster guys.

It helped that Tyus + Ja played with better supporting cast usually (bane Jaren)  Another big difference over prev year is Tyus started hitting 3s.   Which gave Ja the spacing he needed.       It was still a terrible perimeter defensive pairing and Taylor used it too much. 

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4 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

It helped that Tyus + Ja played with better supporting cast usually (bane Jaren)  Another big difference over prev year is Tyus started hitting 3s.   Which gave Ja the spacing he needed.       It was still a terrible perimeter defensive pairing and Taylor used it too much. 

Our Perimeter defense needs to get better this coming season 

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9 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Because they were usually a net negative rtg when on the floor.   Is it so hard to understand that not all Player pairings work?  We didn't win games because of those pairings we won games in spite of them. 

You want to distill coaching down to a couple of stats and think you have all the answers.  If it was that simple, you would be coaching in the NBA.

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I know I'm not seeing people wanting to bring this war criminal back. He's the main reason GS has another ring.

The only way they were gonna win that series is if they went up 3-1, which makes Game 4 the worst loss in franchise history.

He's a loose cannon who wants to take 25 shots. That is not what this team needs

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, grizzgolf said:

Our Perimeter defense needs to get better this coming season 

Correction...  Our perimeter defense and perimeter shooting needs to get better!  Our half court offense has to flow better too...

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7 minutes ago, Holidayinn21 said:

I know I'm not seeing people wanting to bring this war criminal back. He's the main reason GS has another ring.

The only way they were gonna win that series is if they went up 3-1, which makes Game 4 the worst loss in franchise history.

He's a loose cannon who wants to take 25 shots. That is not what this team needs

 

 

 

Agreed, Im sick of Dillion's poor shooting and shot selection and Kyle's inconsistent scoring and turnovers...  

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2 hours ago, Grizzhype said:

Correction...  Our perimeter defense and perimeter shooting needs to get better!  Our half court offense has to flow better too...

Correct. I will take that correction. Bane did what he could and Ja seemed to get better at the end of the season. JJJ seems like it was 1 out of every 3 games his 3's hit but I am too lazy to look the stats up

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37 minutes ago, f-dizzle said:

Can we just move DB to the bench and call it a day? 

I think that is the best move, he would be a sixthman (he and Clarke), then he would be free to be agressive like he wants. Also that would humble him a bit, he is acting like he is Kobe. 

I just dont know if Jenkins could do that.

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