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The J Crew

Grizzly player rankings - now through Week 11

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23 minutes ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

I've noticed it too. Players won't pass the ball to him sometimes because they think he'll take and miss the shot or make a mistake. Jenkins apparently doesn't see it. It is much more noticeable in 4th quarters. They don't trust him yet in big spots.

Yes some one should recommend a good optician for TJ :)

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5 hours ago, FrenchGrizzlies said:

No you missunderstand me. I think ZW can become a good player, he seems fearless. I just consider that we should not give him allthe minute he got  currently and let him play on a regualr basis with the Husstle to make him improving.

Yesyerday for me was interesting. When the score was tight, i see several time ZW alone in great position and other player hesitating to pass him the ball , considering probably that hos shoot is still not good enough, specially at 3.  

but he may be a great player in the future.

Alright makes more sense to me now. 

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On 11/25/2021 at 11:00 PM, Grizzfan7979 said:

Z is terrible. everybody who talks about his good qualities is just showing they value measurables over results. He's like a "5 tool prospect" in baseball except his average is .200 and he never hits home runs and commits a bunch of errors and gets throw out stealing bases all the time. But man, his swing sure looks good and he made a few diving catches. Valuing the look of things not what it actually produces.

See the source image

Most rookie numbers are terrible. Wait a few years and then let's see what the team got. 

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On 11/22/2021 at 11:45 AM, The J Crew said:

Ja is going to need some help. Part of the 8 metric ranking is cumulative, so Dillon should rise pretty quickly as he plays more.

And Ziaire 331st out of 332 ranked players. Yeesh.

 

This ranking is after week 9, I think, as opposed to week 5 just above.

Interesting to see how Grizz players have moved. Jaren up 92 slots to 44 overall. Konchar up 133 slots to 168. Ziaire last in the league on this metric for players playing over 200 minutes. 

 

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23 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

This ranking is after week 9, I think, as opposed to week 5 just above.

Interesting to see how Grizz players have moved. Jaren up 92 slots to 44 overall. Des dropped, probably because of that long 0 for whatever streak from 3. Konchar up 133 slots to 168. Ziaire last in the league on this metric for players playing over 200 minutes. 

 

Data shows Des jumped from 123 to 85.     Also Dillon will never be a stat darling sorta like TA wasn't.  

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2 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Data shows Des jumped from 123 to 85.     Also Dillon will never be a stat darling sorta like TA wasn't.  

Oops. Well good for Des then. I was looking in reverse, I guess. I'll delete that comment. 

True on Dillon, the advanced analytics will never like him. 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Data shows Des jumped from 123 to 85.     Also Dillon will never be a stat darling sorta like TA wasn't.  

Tony was nowhere close to being that bad advanced stats wise. I don't exactly know why Dillon is that bad, I understand the offense as his inefficiency doesn't help his case. I don't get it defensively. I wouldn't call him elite, but he's very good. Just held Dame to 6-21. 

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1 hour ago, Rdk4121 said:

Tony was nowhere close to being that bad advanced stats wise. I don't exactly know why Dillon is that bad, I understand the offense as his inefficiency doesn't help his case. I don't get it defensively. I wouldn't call him elite, but he's very good. Just held Dame to 6-21. 

Maybe Dillon started off slow (coming back from injury) but is rounding into shape.

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2 hours ago, ALT GRIND said:

Maybe Dillon started off slow (coming back from injury) but is rounding into shape.

That does seem to be the case, both offensively and defensively. He's more efficient right now and his defensive rating is better in December. 

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9 hours ago, Rdk4121 said:

That does seem to be the case, both offensively and defensively. He's more efficient right now and his defensive rating is better in December. 

I tracked down the sources on all the "advanced" stats this guy uses last year. Almost no defensive stats involved, all offense. So, Dillon's D doesn't help his rating in the source stats, and therefore not in the average the guy calculates. 

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17 hours ago, Wells said:

I tracked down the sources on all the "advanced" stats this guy uses last year. Almost no defensive stats involved, all offense. So, Dillon's D doesn't help his rating in the source stats, and therefore not in the average the guy calculates. 

What he has done is pretty meaningless and pointless. It seems he's taken several advanced stats (that use all sorts of additional metrics, player tracking, statistical methods etc to adjust for luck, lineups, garbage time, non-counting stats etc) and then reintroduced all the problems of using very flawed measure such as BPM, basic Off & Def ratings, by putting them back in the mix.  He would have been better using what are regarded as the best 3 or 4 advanced metrics and averaging out those (e.g. RAPM, RAPTOR, DARKO, EPM)

 Dillon ranks pretty well on  defense (and overall)  on most of these.

Also interesting is that most of the advanced stats really hate Ja on defence and despite his high ranking on offence, his overall ranking is average at best (and pretty bad on some of them).  The only one that gives him a pass on defence (and a reasonable overall ranking) is EPM, which is the one quoted in the OP and one that seems to favour scoring stats higher than the others.

If anyone's interested here they are. It's intersting to filter and sort on various factors. There's a few anomolies and seemingly odd players showing up high in the rankings, but the the really elite players are consistently at top of all the overall rankings and on their teams.

DARKO  https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/  

RAPTOR https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

RAPM http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=359360747

EPM https://dunksandthrees.com/epm#

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51 minutes ago, MisterT said:

What he has done is pretty meaningless and pointless. It seems he's taken several advanced stats (that use all sorts of additional metrics, player tracking, statistical methods etc to adjust for luck, lineups, garbage time, non-counting stats etc) and then reintroduced all the problems of using very flawed measure such as BPM, basic Off & Def ratings, by putting them back in the mix.  He would have been better using what are regarded as the best 3 or 4 advanced metrics and averaging out those (e.g. RAPM, RAPTOR, DARKO, EPM)

 Dillon ranks pretty well on  defense (and overall)  on most of these.

Also interesting is that most of the advanced stats really hate Ja on defence and despite his high ranking on offence, his overall ranking is average at best (and pretty bad on some of them).  The only one that gives him a pass on defence (and a reasonable overall ranking) is EPM, which is the one quoted in the OP and one that seems to favour scoring stats higher than the others.

If anyone's interested here they are. It's intersting to filter and sort on various factors. There's a few anomolies and seemingly odd players showing up high in the rankings, but the the really elite players are consistently at top of all the overall rankings and on their teams.

DARKO  https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/  

RAPTOR https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

RAPM http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=359360747

EPM https://dunksandthrees.com/epm#

Vgood post, you should copy and paste this into the Grizzlies team stats thread to keep all these references in one place

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10 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

I only looked at Raptor, but oh my goodness look at ZW rating. 

RAPM pretty unkind to Ja, Kyle shows up pretty much the same as nba.com stats, Jaren shows up as a top NBA player (except in rebounding which shows as one of the worst LOL)

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1 hour ago, BigHunkALove said:

RAPM pretty unkind to Ja, Kyle shows up pretty much the same as nba.com stats, Jaren shows up as a top NBA player (except in rebounding which shows as one of the worst LOL)

OBPM and DBPM don’t like Jaren either.  
 

 I think our team is much greater than the sum of its parts although our top several players look great.

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1 hour ago, ALT GRIND said:

OBPM and DBPM don’t like Jaren either.  
 

 I think our team is much greater than the sum of its parts although our top several players look great.

Even though it calls itself an "advanced" stat, BPM isn't regarded as being as accurate or definitive as the the advanced stats I listed above.

Even the spiel on the Basketball Reference site about it's own metric says as much. I'm paraphrasing, but it basically says , "our offensive stats are probably resonably close, but take the defensive stats with a huge grain of salt", and "we don't pretend to be as accurate as other metrics that capture things like play-by-play and tracking data".

JJJ is consistently highly ranked on the metrics that measure overall player impact, not just counting box-score stats.

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4 hours ago, BigHunkALove said:

Vgood post, you should copy and paste this into the Grizzlies team stats thread to keep all these references in one place

Thanks.

If i thought anyone on here (other than you) would actually read it i would :)

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2 hours ago, MisterT said:

Thanks.

If i thought anyone on here (other than you) would actually read it i would :)

He's not the only one.

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unique skillsets can be hard to quantify. But i think the main issue with jarens advanced stats, at least in the previous years, is  the same reason his normal play suffers. FOULS.. When you pick up quick fouls, Its going to affect how your approach the game, even if you dont end up picking more up.

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Any stat that has ZW last in the league is a legitimate stat to me. Also, I wonder where Grayson Allen is as compared to Melton (puts down phone and waits for a certain poster to rage respond 🤣). 

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6 minutes ago, King Dork said:

Any stat that has ZW last in the league is a legitimate stat to me. Also, I wonder where Grayson Allen is as compared to Melton (puts down phone and waits for a certain poster to rage respond 🤣). 

All we can hope is the grizzlies have noticed. Can't be giving him minutes if it disrupts how well we're playing, development be damned.

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17 hours ago, MisterT said:

Thanks.

If i thought anyone on here (other than you) would actually read it i would :)

 

15 hours ago, Wells said:

He's not the only one.

that's right, there are quite a few guys who check these out and then report to the rest of the board.

This is a highly informed and learned crowd around here!

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6 hours ago, King Dork said:

Any stat that has ZW last in the league is a legitimate stat to me. Also, I wonder where Grayson Allen is as compared to Melton (puts down phone and waits for a certain poster to rage respond 🤣). 

Actually, surprisingly, they are very compatible, almost equal, except for steals (DeA>>Grayson) and 3% (Grayson>>DeA).

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