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BigHunkALove

The future of the Grizzlies - next step

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5 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

If the team isn't located in Brooklyn, New York, Miami or Los Angeles you need to get lucky because the really choice free agents don't want to move anywhere else these days. 

agreed for the great majority of cases. however, I do believe that ja changes that equation. stars love to shine and elite pgs cast a very bright light. ja is an old school pg. he changes that narrative providing we don’t make other silly fo decisions. 
 

slim. 

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1 minute ago, memphis slim said:

agreed for the great majority of cases. however, I do believe that ja changes that equation. stars love to shine and elite pgs cast a very bright light. ja is an old school pg. he changes that narrative providing we don’t make other silly fo decisions. 
 

slim. 

Ja isn't a free agent...

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17 minutes ago, memphis slim said:

?

talking about free agents willing to come here. 

 

slim. 

I am referring to Memphis needing to get lucky to build a championship squad because simply knowing what you want and going out to get them doesn't work in cities outside of LA, New York and Miami. Houston has drawn a few pieces but got lucky with two top picks in the draft to win it all. Chicago got lucky with Michael Jordan falling to 3rd in the draft. San Antonio get lucky with two #1 picks in the draft. Only New York, LA and Miami have used free agency as a major tool to build a championship franchise. 

Your comment about Ja changing things may be true but so far I haven't seen any indication that Ja can recruit players to Memphis. I don't even know yet if Ja has attempted to do that. 

Give me an example that doesn't involve Miami, New York or LA where a player was able to attract championship caliber free agents to a club. I can't think of any off the top of my head but I am willing to be convinced. 

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it’s going to depend upon the fo’s decisions moving forward mostly. you are correct- I don’t believe ja has been holding interviews but this, to date, has been a different angle. it’s been about our up and coming duo. if that duo proves to be a single, then I could see things changing. 
 

all I’m saying is very good players like to play with very good players. folks run still to play with lebron. not saying ja is that but the illustration stands. collectively, the spurs had that same allure. 
 

slim. 

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27 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I am referring to Memphis needing to get lucky to build a championship squad because simply knowing what you want and going out to get them doesn't work in cities outside of LA, New York and Miami. Houston has drawn a few pieces but got lucky with two top picks in the draft to win it all. Chicago got lucky with Michael Jordan falling to 3rd in the draft. San Antonio get lucky with two #1 picks in the draft. Only New York, LA and Miami have used free agency as a major tool to build a championship franchise. 

Your comment about Ja changing things may be true but so far I haven't seen any indication that Ja can recruit players to Memphis. I don't even know yet if Ja has attempted to do that. 

Give me an example that doesn't involve Miami, New York or LA where a player was able to attract championship caliber free agents to a club. I can't think of any off the top of my head but I am willing to be convinced. 

Warriors.

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2 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Warriors.

Would that be the Warriors recruiting Kevin Durant to their team AFTER they won their first championship? The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson and Green. They got a Z-Bo type luck with Andre Iguodala and then won a title. The free agent signing of Durant came after their first title didn't it? 

The Warriors appear to me the prime example of a team getting a Z-Bo type trade to go with smart drafting to win a title but have I missed some free agent that came to San Francisco before their first title? 

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17 hours ago, Grizz&Grind said:

Eventually the FO will figure out exactly what they have and then will likely have to make a move involving players not name Ja, Jaren or Dillon along with future firsts to acquire the final pieces. That or they get extremely lucky in a trade/FA scenario.

ATL is a pretty good template - good drafts and when they were ready a couple of really shrewd moves.

 

This is the point I've been trying to make about the FO needing to figure out their philosophy on adding vets.  So far, this FO has only added older guys if it benefitted them for draft capital or young talent, generally sending out the older and getting the younger player.  Given where they team was, it made some sense.  The question is whether it still makes sense, and are there vets out there that contribute in the locker room AND on the floor?

 

I have a lot more confidence in this FO doing drafts then I do acquiring players through trade/FA.

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2 minutes ago, Grizzled Vet said:

This is the point I've been trying to make about the FO needing to figure out their philosophy on adding vets.  So far, this FO has only added older guys if it benefitted them for draft capital or young talent, generally sending out the older and getting the younger player.  Given where they team was, it made some sense.  The question is whether it still makes sense, and are there vets out there that contribute in the locker room AND on the floor?

I have a lot more confidence in this FO doing drafts then I do acquiring players through trade/FA.

The FO has been killing it on the draft. They've done remarkably well with two way players as well. What they have struggled with is dealing with other teams to get fair much less excess value in a deal. 

However we are talking about an extremely small number of examples on both drafts and trades. I believe over time we will see some misses in the draft and some wins in trades. Hopefully the latter happens more than the former. 

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9 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Would that be the Warriors recruiting Kevin Durant to their team AFTER they won their first championship? The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson and Green. They got a Z-Bo type luck with Andre Iguodala and then won a title. The free agent signing of Durant came after their first title didn't it? 

The Warriors appear to me the prime example of a team getting a Z-Bo type trade to go with smart drafting to win a title but have I missed some free agent that came to San Francisco before their first title? 

Maybe Im missing some part of this discussion but I dont see how recruiting Durant to the team doesnt count as signing a championship caliber free agent just because they already won one.  Although they had one won, they lost the next one so he clearly took them from a strong contender for another to almost a shoe in for the next title.  More importantly he signed because he liked the team and not necessarily because it was a hot city which I thought was the base of the discussion.  Not that I think the Grizzlies will pull this off...the Bay area still dwarfs Memphis in terms of attractiveness.

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1 minute ago, Dwash said:

Maybe Im missing some part of this discussion but I dont see how recruiting Durant to the team doesnt count as signing a championship caliber free agent just because they already won one.  Although they had one won, they lost the next one so he clearly took them from a strong contender for another to almost a shoe in for the next title.  More importantly he signed because he liked the team and not necessarily because it was a hot city which I thought was the base of the discussion.  Not that I think the Grizzlies will pull this off...the Bay area still dwarfs Memphis in terms of attractiveness.

I was talking about building a champion not maintaining a championship. I believe once you have won a title, especially when you won the title the season before free agency, it is far easier for any team to attract free agents. After Cleveland won a title players went there to try and win another so they get their ring. 

The OP stated that the Grizzlies needed to get a Z-Bo type trade lucky if they want to win a championship. I agree that they do but added that just about every team in the league outside of the markets of New York, LA and Miami need to get that type of luck because the elite free agents don't come to building programs. They go to major markets who are competing to win titles year in and year out. 

Also, I am sorry but I am old and somewhat crotchety in my opinions but I don't believe Durant signed with Golden State simply because he liked the team either. If that was the reason why did he leave when the same team was still in place? I believe he went because Golden State was in line to win a number of titles and he would get the rings. They had already proven they were capable of winning a title and he knew that he would have plenty of more opportunities there. He left Golden State, which I agree is more desirable than Memphis for a young rich man, to head to the bright lights of NYC. He didn't go there because he liked Kyrie Irving more than Steph Curry.  

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Warriors works because they did majority of their damage via the draft.   Curry #7; Klay #11; and Draymond as #35.  Then they signed a One Time AllStar Iggy and got a coach that understand how to maximize what they had.  

No reason to think we need to continually get Top 5 picks in order to become contenders.    What's more important is having a FO that can find the gems no matter where in the draft AND a Coach that understands how to maximize his main players. 

Just because a guy is drafted in the lottery doesn't mean he will be a surefire success (see Philly process).   Out of all the tanking Philly did they only ended up with 2 players and both have wort's. 

Technically we already have 4 lottery picks (ja #2, Jaren #4, Jonas #5, Justise #10).   if you are a team that's still picking in high lottery when you already have high lottery picks then that means those lottery picks weren't good. 

Our next "Guy" has to come via trade, FA, or Internal Development.   

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Just to get this out there, the practical next steps for the Grizzlies are to make decisions on Jontay Porter (salary guaranteed on 7/20),  and Justise Winslow (8/1) and draft some guys (7/29).

 

And while the consolidation trade is a great idea, the teams to consider as trade partners are those that might be overhauling their teams (maybe Portland, not sure on others) or teams needing to get under luxury tax this year, who more realistically may allow a free agent to walk (not sure on those teams, but perhaps Nets, Warriors, Clips, ?) but most of those teams are still vying for championships.  Realistically though, I'm not expecting some consolidation trade that will land this team a starter-type player.

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27 minutes ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

Pops tanked for Timmy D, remember?

He would never do such a thing. David Robinson and the rest had legitimate injuries and he had to protect his other players therefore he was forced to use the worst players he could find and in the worst combination. He didn't tank. He had no choice. 

See the source image

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4 hours ago, Grizzled Vet said:

Just to get this out there, the practical next steps for the Grizzlies are to make decisions on Jontay Porter (salary guaranteed on 7/20),  and Justise Winslow (8/1) and draft some guys (7/29).

 

And while the consolidation trade is a great idea, the teams to consider as trade partners are those that might be overhauling their teams (maybe Portland, not sure on others) or teams needing to get under luxury tax this year, who more realistically may allow a free agent to walk (not sure on those teams, but perhaps Nets, Warriors, Clips, ?) but most of those teams are still vying for championships.  Realistically though, I'm not expecting some consolidation trade that will land this team a starter-type player.

See the source image

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8 hours ago, memphis slim said:

☝️
absolutely, and the perfect scenario for 12 wanting out down the road. 

 

slim.

I think we are a team that has to think about doing those MEGA trades for a player like Lillard or KAT or Beal.

JV/BC/Melton/Tyus/Grayson Allen/17/future draft picks is a solid offer for lots of players. 

If not one of those 3 then what about D'Angelo Russell?  BC/Melton/Tyus/Grayson/17/future picks might be a solid bid.  He can be part of a legit Option 2/2a with DB.  

I can't think of many other good/great players who are legit on the trading block right now...

Maybe we should make a bid for Tyler Herro.  Had a "disappointing" season and is highly valued by the Heat but maybe we can throw some pieces at him (BC/Melton/Tyus/17/future first) -- he would be a good fit with our young guns (Ja/Dillon/Bane/Jaren).  It would be nice to have two of DB/Herro/Bane on the court at all possible times.  

If a superstar free agent won't sign here then we either have to draft UPSIDE Boom/Bust coin flip guys OR try and trade for high end talent -- and we should probably try to do BOTH.  And, in that case we should try to hit singles/doubles in free agency with solid metrics guys on Moneyball contracts.

 

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Don’t know if it’s been mentioned here yet but I am looking forward to watching Coach grow with our young guys.

We have had more than enough coaching turnovers- real high rate.

 I hope he can tighten up his challenge spreadsheet and keep our guys moving forward.

This may be our first real chance to experience what it’s like having a coaching staff and front office team members on the same page.

 I like our bench - real scrappy bunch.

Keep training them so that when this team is ready to make some noise - we can make moves that fit our plans.

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6 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Warriors works because they did majority of their damage via the draft.   Curry #7; Klay #11; and Draymond as #35.  Then they signed a One Time AllStar Iggy and got a coach that understand how to maximize what they had.  

No reason to think we need to continually get Top 5 picks in order to become contenders.    What's more important is having a FO that can find the gems no matter where in the draft AND a Coach that understands how to maximize his main players. 

Just because a guy is drafted in the lottery doesn't mean he will be a surefire success (see Philly process).   Out of all the tanking Philly did they only ended up with 2 players and both have wort's. 

Technically we already have 4 lottery picks (ja #2, Jaren #4, Jonas #5, Justise #10).   if you are a team that's still picking in high lottery when you already have high lottery picks then that means those lottery picks weren't good. 

Our next "Guy" has to come via trade, FA, or Internal Development.   

 

In this draft, Max Abmas, Chris Duarte and Usman Garuba could be a bench mob version of Steph/Klay/Dray.

We also have to swing for the fences to try and find the next Greek Freak/Jokic/Gobert.  Yeah, we will strike out a lot but a hit like that would make up for lots of misses.

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3 hours ago, ALT GRIND said:

 

I think we are a team that has to think about doing those MEGA trades for a player like Lillard or KAT or Beal.

JV/BC/Melton/Tyus/Grayson Allen/17/future draft picks is a solid offer for lots of players. 

If not one of those 3 then what about D'Angelo Russell?  BC/Melton/Tyus/Grayson/17/future picks might be a solid bid.  He can be part of a legit Option 2/2a with DB.  

I can't think of many other good/great players who are legit on the trading block right now...

Maybe we should make a bid for Tyler Herro.  Had a "disappointing" season and is highly valued by the Heat but maybe we can throw some pieces at him (BC/Melton/Tyus/17/future first) -- he would be a good fit with our young guns (Ja/Dillon/Bane/Jaren).  It would be nice to have two of DB/Herro/Bane on the court at all possible times.  

If a superstar free agent won't sign here then we either have to draft UPSIDE Boom/Bust coin flip guys OR try and trade for high end talent -- and we should probably try to do BOTH.  And, in that case we should try to hit singles/doubles in free agency with solid metrics guys on Moneyball contracts.

 

I keep thinking those great players aren't there this spring, but here are 3 teams with potential candidates:

Blazers: They are at their bring in Fizdale moment, having just gotten rid of Stotts (Joerger/Hollins).  I think they will try to run it back this year, but they are at point that they have to do something like bring in a Chandler Parsons type transaction (maybe Wiggins) to get one more go at it, but who knows, maybe it is this year McCullum is available.  I could see both Dame and CJ getting the Gasol/Conley treatment and going somewhere that's competitive right now (Miami?), but again, who knows.

Rockets: They have one piece to offer that doesn't really fit, and that's John Wall.  And then they have Eric Gordon.  I'm sure both those guys are available and love to be elsewhere.

Wizards: I have been on these boards believing Beal is unavailable, and like Lillard, he's stated that he's happy where he's at, and putting roots down and the journey for a championship is more meaningful than just pulling a Durant.  HOWEVER, he's now played one season with Russ Westbrook, and if Beal is like Durant and Harden, he might think, "Maybe I'll go somewhere else instead of playing with that guy" and St. Louis ain't that far from home.  I'll also throw in Westbrook, but while Wall is such a long shot stretch, at least I could see a way it could work.  Westbrook's available, but even if the craziest mental gymnastics he won't be here.

Bonus: Sac Kings: Not really sure if they are in the retool or building up, but Harrison Barnes is probably available. Spurs: Entering breakdown phase with little to show for it or offer, but DDR and Gay.  Pacers have some decisions to make and could be realistic partner in deals.

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22 minutes ago, Grizzled Vet said:

I keep thinking those great players aren't there this spring, but here are 3 teams with potential candidates:

Blazers: They are at their bring in Fizdale moment, having just gotten rid of Stotts (Joerger/Hollins).  I think they will try to run it back this year, but they are at point that they have to do something like bring in a Chandler Parsons type transaction (maybe Wiggins) to get one more go at it, but who knows, maybe it is this year McCullum is available.  I could see both Dame and CJ getting the Gasol/Conley treatment and going somewhere that's competitive right now (Miami?), but again, who knows.

Rockets: They have one piece to offer that doesn't really fit, and that's John Wall.  And then they have Eric Gordon.  I'm sure both those guys are available and love to be elsewhere.

Wizards: I have been on these boards believing Beal is unavailable, and like Lillard, he's stated that he's happy where he's at, and putting roots down and the journey for a championship is more meaningful than just pulling a Durant.  HOWEVER, he's now played one season with Russ Westbrook, and if Beal is like Durant and Harden, he might think, "Maybe I'll go somewhere else instead of playing with that guy" and St. Louis ain't that far from home.  I'll also throw in Westbrook, but while Wall is such a long shot stretch, at least I could see a way it could work.  Westbrook's available, but even if the craziest mental gymnastics he won't be here.

Bonus: Sac Kings: Not really sure if they are in the retool or building up, but Harrison Barnes is probably available. Spurs: Entering breakdown phase with little to show for it or offer, but DDR and Gay.  Pacers have some decisions to make and could be realistic partner in deals.

 

I would kick the tires on Russell Westbrook too.

DeRozan/Gay would be great fits with our Ja/Jaren/Dillon/Jonas/Bane/Kyle core.  How do the salaries match?  Winslow/Tyus/BC/Melton/17/plus would be the standard package but I am not sure that DeRozan/Gay turn us into contenders.  DeRozan/Gay are closer to mid-range masters/chuckers than pure 3 point snipers.  Neither would help floor spacing a whole lot.

 

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23 minutes ago, ALT GRIND said:

I would kick the tires on Russell Westbrook too.

DeRozan/Gay would be great fits with our Ja/Jaren/Dillon/Jonas/Bane/Kyle core.  How do the salaries match?  Winslow/Tyus/BC/Melton/17/plus would be the standard package but I am not sure that DeRozan/Gay turn us into contenders.  DeRozan/Gay are closer to mid-range masters/chuckers than pure 3 point snipers.  Neither would help floor spacing a whole lot.

 

It would be the quickest of kicks. Westbrook makes $44.2M and $47.1M the next two years, and turns 33 this fall. 

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Purely hypothetical since this scenario wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell, but if we could somehow engineer a trade to get Lillard (e.g. JV + Winslow + a truckload of picks), would that make us a contender right away? What other realistic moves would be needed, given that we'd lose most of our tradeable assets?

I'm not asking because I particularly think Lillard would be a good fit, but because I'm trying to gauge how realistic it is for us to shift directly into win now mode even if we managed to pull off a blockbuster move like this one, which we won't.

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I think we need to make our depth a bit shorter we play WAY to many guys last season.

Melton and BC suffer alot because of it guys who deserve the minutes like Konchar and Tillman were in and out aswell it was just to much.

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