PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan

JV career playoff stats...starter or role player?

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16 hours ago, Rdk4121 said:

Yes, and we're not winning. Not sure what else there is to talk about. JV and his lack of production on offense, and poor defense are a big part of why we are not winning right now. He's getting 6 more minutes per game than he was in the regular season, but he's scoring 3 less points per game and averaging 2 less rebounds. He's defensive rating went from 108 per 100 possessions, to 126. He's by no means the only reason, but he's one of our 3 best players, so there is more resting on his shoulders. Dillon and Ja have brought it this series, there numbers have taken a big jump up. JV's have fallen across the board more or less. 

Over the play-ins and playoffs, JV averaged 15.3 pts/12 reb. JV got less touches than in the regular season due to way more ISO ball by Ja and Dillon.

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JV going forward during playoffs should become a ceremonial starter.   Basically test the waters early and if opponents are exploiting him then sit him and slide Jaren down.      JV is fine during regular season where his putbacks and rebounds are more impactful.   Pretty clear the leash has to be shorter during playoffs. 

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I kinda feel that Coach has to share some of that blame.  Scheme can go a long way toward issues we see.  I think maybe there are some changes that should be made within the flow of a game on a game/game basis.  Its hard to know what kind of things are going on for those type of adjustments... so...grain of salt and all that.

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Hey,

 

I was really surprised to read some of these comments. It felt like someone really expected Grizz to win this series and when it didnt happen witches hunt started..

First of all this year was good. Team reached play-offs in west with young team (one of the core players out fot almost whole regular season) and coach usually playing not this day type of basketball. This team had his face and often it was fun to watch.

Then this team faced best team in nba and lost. You cant blame one player for this since 1 vs. 1 they simply are better in almost all positions.

Yes JV struggled in this series but he faced best team with legit DPOY so i dont see his fault here and he still was useful. (15 and 10 with good shooting). Rudy is getting 25mil. (and will get more) vs. JV 15 mil. What can you get for those money that could bring you 200 ws/48 in 28 mins? that is a star stats. Yes in this series he lost to gobert but  Rudy would have more or less same problems on defense like JV if we would have same level shooting players on 1--4 position but we simply didnt have. Second we didnt feed him enough. JV is extreme effective on offense but we simply didnt use him (bc JA and Brooks felt they need to step up) so we removed biggest part of his use.

Also dont forget JA 130 def ratio in playoffs, JJJ 29% on threes, empty bench and so on. Brooks played really well these 5 games but can he stay on at least near this level in longer terms? Mind you that in regular season he had 1.4 ws 0.33 ws/48 (in this for quite some time he was in minus!?) minus 3.9 BPM and minus 1.0 in VORP these stats means that he in general was playing for enemy team.. The only other player that was close to these mad numbers was Winslow..

Utah didnt become such a dominant team in a year. No they were polishing things step by step (remember how lost Conley looked last year), adding pieces one by one (Boggy, Clarkson, Conley). 

I hope Grizz can repeat this success. Next year gonna be critical for this roster. We will need to find out are JA and JJJ worth max salary if yes we also must keep critical role players like Kyle and JV (for up to 10 mil per year each)to  hope that Bane and Tillman gonna keep improving and then use all possible free money for third key role player or even a star.

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25 minutes ago, adameitas said:

Hey,

 

I was really surprised to read some of these comments. It felt like someone really expected Grizz to win this series and when it didnt happen witches hunt started..

First of all this year was good. Team reached play-offs in west with young team (one of the core players out fot almost whole regular season) and coach usually playing not this day type of basketball. This team had his face and often it was fun to watch.

Then this team faced best team in nba and lost. You cant blame one player for this since 1 vs. 1 they simply are better in almost all positions.

Yes JV struggled in this series but he faced best team with legit DPOY so i dont see his fault here and he still was useful. (15 and 10 with good shooting). Rudy is getting 25mil. (and will get more) vs. JV 15 mil. What can you get for those money that could bring you 200 ws/48 in 28 mins? that is a star stats. Yes in this series he lost to gobert but  Rudy would have more or less same problems on defense like JV if we would have same level shooting players on 1--4 position but we simply didnt have. Second we didnt feed him enough. JV is extreme effective on offense but we simply didnt use him (bc JA and Brooks felt they need to step up) so we removed biggest part of his use.

Also dont forget JA 130 def ratio in playoffs, JJJ 29% on threes, empty bench and so on. Brooks played really well these 5 games but can he stay on at least near this level in longer terms? Mind you that in regular season he had 1.4 ws 0.33 ws/48 (in this for quite some time he was in minus!?) minus 3.9 BPM and minus 1.0 in VORP these stats means that he in general was playing for enemy team.. The only other player that was close to these mad numbers was Winslow..

Utah didnt become such a dominant team in a year. No they were polishing things step by step (remember how lost Conley looked last year), adding pieces one by one (Boggy, Clarkson, Conley). 

I hope Grizz can repeat this success. Next year gonna be critical for this roster. We will need to find out are JA and JJJ worth max salary if yes we also must keep critical role players like Kyle and JV (for up to 10 mil per year each)to  hope that Bane and Tillman gonna keep improving and then use all possible free money for third key role player or even a star.

Welcome to the board!

I don't think most truly thought we could win the series, but it was clear that we had a legitimate chance. I've said it before, but JV had one of the bigger roles on this team for the playoffs as he is the only one with tons of playoff experience, and really the only one that could match Gobert on the boards and in the paint. He was okay, but his stats were down in the playoffs in comparison to the regular season, despite playing more minutes. It's tough to see Dillon and Ja elevate their play, while JV didn't play as well as he did all year, when he's the vet of the team, while the other two had never played a playoff game before this year. 

Long term, we'll be fine. We're the youngest playoff team since the KD, Russ, and Harden OKC teams. They turned out to be pretty good (could've been even better, but oh well). We have a lot of pieces in place, with plenty of capital to add more pieces. 

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3 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

Welcome to the board!

I don't think most truly thought we could win the series, but it was clear that we had a legitimate chance. I've said it before, but JV had one of the bigger roles on this team for the playoffs as he is the only one with tons of playoff experience, and really the only one that could match Gobert on the boards and in the paint. He was okay, but his stats were down in the playoffs in comparison to the regular season, despite playing more minutes. It's tough to see Dillon and Ja elevate their play, while JV didn't play as well as he did all year, when he's the vet of the team, while the other two had never played a playoff game before this year. 

Long term, we'll be fine. We're the youngest playoff team since the KD, Russ, and Harden OKC teams. They turned out to be pretty good (could've been even better, but oh well). We have a lot of pieces in place, with plenty of capital to add more pieces. 

well JV value is on offense mostly. To produce that value you need to have a ball. Brooks and JA took like 20 shots per game compare to 12 on JV. They increased shots numbers and they passed less. Also dont forget that JV played vs DPOY. Imagine if Brooks and JA would faced Leonard, George and Beverly:) JV shot less but on same perc. so it means that Gobert didnt defend him perfectly. We will see how many centers vs Gobert gonna reach JV numbers in these play-offs. And some of them wont be 4-5 option on offense.

In 2019 World cup there was JV vs Gobert match. JV had 18/9 Rudy got 9/8. Sure Gobert won that game for France after controversial tip at the end but JV was a huge trouble for them. He was option number one on that Lithuania team.

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

JV going forward during playoffs should become a ceremonial starter.   Basically test the waters early and if opponents are exploiting him then sit him and slide Jaren down.      JV is fine during regular season where his putbacks and rebounds are more impactful.   Pretty clear the leash has to be shorter during playoffs. 

You have to bench him and make him a role player or he will ask for more money than he deserve on the market. I would be glad to keep him with the same type of contract on a bit of discount. 

By the way, Dillon and SlowMo will ask for more money when their time is up. 

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2 minutes ago, adameitas said:

well JV value is on offense mostly. To produce that value you need to have a ball. Brooks and JA took like 20 shots per game compare to 12 on JV. They increased shots numbers and they passed less. Also dont forget that JV played vs DPOY. Imagine if Brooks and JA would faced Leonard, George and Beverly:) JV shot less but on same perc. so it means that Gobert didnt defend him perfectly. We will see how many centers vs Gobert gonna reach JV numbers in these play-offs. And some of them wont be 4-5 option on offense.

In 2019 World cup there was JV vs Gobert match. JV had 18/9 Rudy got 9/8. Sure Gobert won that game for France after controversial tip at the end but JV was a huge trouble for them. He was option number one on that Lithuania team.

JV also kept getting in foul trouble, which didn't help his cause. His rebounding took a serious drop as well. His total rebound % went from 23.4% in the regular season (3rd in the NBA), to 16.3% (8th in the playoffs). But Gobert was first in total and offensive rebound %, which was probably even more of the problem. As for offense, he only took 0.4 less shots per game in the playoffs compared to the regular season. He averaged 2.1 extra PPG on that 0.4 extra shot though. FG% drop a decent amount from 59.2% to 57%. Bigger part, only went to the line 1.6 times, compared to 3.3. Royce O'Neal was 11th in DBPM, far ahead of Kawhi who was the closest at 25th. Dillon and Ja took him the woodshed. Mike is also 30th, so he was very solid as well. 

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37 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

 

I don't think most truly thought we could win the series, but it was clear that we had a legitimate chance.

Based on what? A 3 point win when their best player was out?

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29 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

JV also kept getting in foul trouble, which didn't help his cause. His rebounding took a serious drop as well. His total rebound % went from 23.4% in the regular season (3rd in the NBA), to 16.3% (8th in the playoffs). But Gobert was first in total and offensive rebound %, which was probably even more of the problem. As for offense, he only took 0.4 less shots per game in the playoffs compared to the regular season. He averaged 2.1 extra PPG on that 0.4 extra shot though. FG% drop a decent amount from 59.2% to 57%. Bigger part, only went to the line 1.6 times, compared to 3.3. Royce O'Neal was 11th in DBPM, far ahead of Kawhi who was the closest at 25th. Dillon and Ja took him the woodshed. Mike is also 30th, so he was very solid as well. 

well most of those numbers doesnt look horrible when you know that JV played vs DPOY. Players who gets 2x more money. What did you expect to get same or eve nbetter for twice less?:) Also if you think that 2% in 5 games are decent then what about Conley 55% threes vs JA 32%? we can find more such numbers. And really 1,7 point drop vs DPOY cant be called critical on a player that was 4-5 option. What if JV would got his 20 shots per game?

Brooks and Ja also played well but can they do it in longer terms? And can they play better on defense too? You can say that O'Neal struggled but he got 114 defense ratio, number that JA and Brooks could only dream about.

In my opinion LAC didnt take regular season too serious. And they didnt even played much together. But i think you will agree that those three are elite defenders for years and have tons of play-offs experience. As for PF Rudy got 21 JV 18 both of them had games were they struggled bc of them but overall played quite similar time. Also funny fact JV got better DBPM then JA and Brooks in regular season.

All in what i want to say. You cant blame for this loss one player. Other key players also have their weakness but they could hide them bc they had a ball and JV didnt.

P.S. i really dont agree that grizz had a chance. To have it you must play 110% and opponent less then 100%. Some of our grizz guys played better some worse but on jazz all played at their level. Well maybe apart Clarkson but even in that form he was better then whole grizz bench.

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32 minutes ago, cdp said:

Based on what? A 3 point win when their best player was out?

We were competitive the entire series, except for the last game. We had a lead in the 4th in game 3, and were down 4 in game 4 with 3 minutes. Talent and experience won out, but with a couple bounces and better decisions, we weren't far from being up 3-2 right now. We had a very good chance at winning those games, but we didn't. I'm not really sure what else to say. 

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16 minutes ago, adameitas said:

well most of those numbers doesnt look horrible when you know that JV played vs DPOY. Players who gets 2x more money. What did you expect to get same or eve nbetter for twice less?:) Also if you think that 2% in 5 games are decent then what about Conley 55% threes vs JA 32%? we can find more such numbers. And really 1,7 point drop vs DPOY cant be called critical on a player that was 4-5 option. What if JV would got his 20 shots per game?

Brooks and Ja also played well but can they do it in longer terms? And can they play better on defense too? You can say that O'Neal struggled but he got 114 defense ratio, number that JA and Brooks could only dream about.

In my opinion LAC didnt take regular season too serious. And they didnt even played much together. But i think you will agree that those three are elite defenders for years and have tons of play-offs experience. As for PF Rudy got 21 JV 18 both of them had games were they struggled bc of them but overall played quite similar time. Also funny fact JV got better DBPM then JA and Brooks in regular season.

All in what i want to say. You cant blame for this loss one player. Other key players also have their weakness but they could hide them bc they had a ball and JV didnt.

P.S. i really dont agree that grizz had a chance. To have it you must play 110% and opponent less then 100%. Some of our grizz guys played better some worse but on jazz all played at their level. Well maybe apart Clarkson but even in that form he was better then whole grizz bench.

Not sure why money matters. Ja gets paid less than everyone, but outplayed all but Mitchell. And it's 2.1 PPG less, but that's whatever. It's just that Ja and Dillon added 8-10 PPG more than the regular season, despite making less money than JV. Ja literally averaged double his points. That 114 number you quoted for O'Neal was third behind Gobert and Favors for people that actually played. 

 You mentioned those players for LAC, but none of them are as good of defenders as O'Neal was this year. In the playoffs or regular season. I guess that's my point, he's an elite defender that guarded Ja or Dillon 100% of the time, yet they had no troubles doing their job.

This is clearly not all on JV, but he's more important than anyone else not named Ja or Dillon, at least this year while Jaren is getting his legs back under him. 

The Jazz played as well as humanly possible for them all series, yet in game 3 and 4, both games came down to the last 4 minutes (we had a lead in game three, and were down 4 in game 4). On the contrary, it was pretty clear we didn't play as well as we could've. Kyle struggled after game 1, Jaren wasn't consistently good, and the bench was mostly not good at all. The played their best, we didn't really play that close to ours, yet pretty much every game was very competitive. 

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On 6/2/2021 at 1:39 PM, The J Crew said:

Makes me miss I love JV guy. 

at least I mean WELL

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56 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

We were competitive the entire series, except for the last game. We had a lead in the 4th in game 3, and were down 4 in game 4 with 3 minutes. Talent and experience won out, but with a couple bounces and better decisions, we weren't far from being up 3-2 right now. We had a very good chance at winning those games, but we didn't. I'm not really sure what else to say. 

what games were you watching...they were so much better than us across the board.  We were competitive in that our guys wanted to compete and play hard, but we have so many holes and gaps to address.

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JV is a starter all the way.  Did we forget about all those 20-20 games he had.  He was just matched up against the biggest center in the league.  Anyone else, and he would've performed like his usual self.  

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4 minutes ago, notnilc20 said:

JV is a starter all the way.  Did we forget about all those 20-20 games he had.  He was just matched up against the biggest center in the league.  Anyone else, and he would've performed like his usual self.  

He got thrown around by Favors and Royce O'Neal as well. Maybe he was fatigued from battling Gobert, but it definitely wasn't his best series overall. He played okay in stretches and mixed it up admirably, but anyone who saw the same Jonas against Utah that we saw during the regular series was watching a completely different game. I think the team also didn't feed him enough in the post all series - have to keep your bigs engaged by giving them the ball when they post up.

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Sigh !!

People keep trying to make this a JV vs Gobert thing but that was not the issue 

Almost all the 3s from Utah were JV fault because.

1.He can't swicht.

2.Has 0 foot speed to contest even a layup in his face.

I also blame coach for playing him.I think trading him is the right way to go.

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On 6/2/2021 at 12:39 PM, The J Crew said:

Makes me miss I love JV guy. 

What happened to him?

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3 hours ago, adameitas said:

Hey,

 

I was really surprised to read some of these comments. It felt like someone really expected Grizz to win this series and when it didnt happen witches hunt started..

First of all this year was good. Team reached play-offs in west with young team (one of the core players out fot almost whole regular season) and coach usually playing not this day type of basketball. This team had his face and often it was fun to watch.

Then this team faced best team in nba and lost. You cant blame one player for this since 1 vs. 1 they simply are better in almost all positions.

Yes JV struggled in this series but he faced best team with legit DPOY so i dont see his fault here and he still was useful. (15 and 10 with good shooting). Rudy is getting 25mil. (and will get more) vs. JV 15 mil. What can you get for those money that could bring you 200 ws/48 in 28 mins? that is a star stats. Yes in this series he lost to gobert but  Rudy would have more or less same problems on defense like JV if we would have same level shooting players on 1--4 position but we simply didnt have. Second we didnt feed him enough. JV is extreme effective on offense but we simply didnt use him (bc JA and Brooks felt they need to step up) so we removed biggest part of his use.

Also dont forget JA 130 def ratio in playoffs, JJJ 29% on threes, empty bench and so on. Brooks played really well these 5 games but can he stay on at least near this level in longer terms? Mind you that in regular season he had 1.4 ws 0.33 ws/48 (in this for quite some time he was in minus!?) minus 3.9 BPM and minus 1.0 in VORP these stats means that he in general was playing for enemy team.. The only other player that was close to these mad numbers was Winslow..

Utah didnt become such a dominant team in a year. No they were polishing things step by step (remember how lost Conley looked last year), adding pieces one by one (Boggy, Clarkson, Conley). 

I hope Grizz can repeat this success. Next year gonna be critical for this roster. We will need to find out are JA and JJJ worth max salary if yes we also must keep critical role players like Kyle and JV (for up to 10 mil per year each)to  hope that Bane and Tillman gonna keep improving and then use all possible free money for third key role player or even a star.

I have to wonder if some of it is blow back from JV's number 1 fan on this board constantly bashing Jaren.

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They need to stop trading known value for bags of "magic beans."

In other words, where would this team be if they stop gladly bending over to get fleeced.

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10 hours ago, GameOn said:

Over the play-ins and playoffs, JV averaged 15.3 pts/12 reb. JV got less touches than in the regular season due to way more ISO ball by Ja and Dillon.

Trying to post him without a floor filled with shooters just meant he was easier to double 

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6 hours ago, costarica2 said:

Sigh !!

People keep trying to make this a JV vs Gobert thing but that was not the issue 

Almost all the 3s from Utah were JV fault because.

1.He can't swicht.

2.Has 0 foot speed to contest even a layup in his face.

I also blame coach for playing him.I think trading him is the right way to go.

They tried to make adjustments the last game but the writing was on the wall

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6 hours ago, notnilc20 said:

JV is a starter all the way.  Did we forget about all those 20-20 games he had.  He was just matched up against the biggest center in the league.  Anyone else, and he would've performed like his usual self.  

Who is also a DPOY and accomplished flop artist.

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14 hours ago, adameitas said:

Hey,

 

I was really surprised to read some of these comments. It felt like someone really expected Grizz to win this series and when it didnt happen witches hunt started..

First of all this year was good. Team reached play-offs in west with young team (one of the core players out fot almost whole regular season) and coach usually playing not this day type of basketball. This team had his face and often it was fun to watch.

Then this team faced best team in nba and lost. You cant blame one player for this since 1 vs. 1 they simply are better in almost all positions.

Yes JV struggled in this series but he faced best team with legit DPOY so i dont see his fault here and he still was useful. (15 and 10 with good shooting). Rudy is getting 25mil. (and will get more) vs. JV 15 mil. What can you get for those money that could bring you 200 ws/48 in 28 mins? that is a star stats. Yes in this series he lost to gobert but  Rudy would have more or less same problems on defense like JV if we would have same level shooting players on 1--4 position but we simply didnt have. Second we didnt feed him enough. JV is extreme effective on offense but we simply didnt use him (bc JA and Brooks felt they need to step up) so we removed biggest part of his use.

Also dont forget JA 130 def ratio in playoffs, JJJ 29% on threes, empty bench and so on. Brooks played really well these 5 games but can he stay on at least near this level in longer terms? Mind you that in regular season he had 1.4 ws 0.33 ws/48 (in this for quite some time he was in minus!?) minus 3.9 BPM and minus 1.0 in VORP these stats means that he in general was playing for enemy team.. The only other player that was close to these mad numbers was Winslow..

Utah didnt become such a dominant team in a year. No they were polishing things step by step (remember how lost Conley looked last year), adding pieces one by one (Boggy, Clarkson, Conley). 

I hope Grizz can repeat this success. Next year gonna be critical for this roster. We will need to find out are JA and JJJ worth max salary if yes we also must keep critical role players like Kyle and JV (for up to 10 mil per year each)to  hope that Bane and Tillman gonna keep improving and then use all possible free money for third key role player or even a star.

Welcome to the board's bro.

I don't think most realistic expectations were that we'd win, just as I don't think it's realistic to blame Jonas completely. You rightly point out Jaren, who IMO didn't play badly, but certainly he wasn't the force he was at the end of last season, and this was a contributing factor, because to have been a chance at knocking off the best team in the NBA, everyone needed to be at their absolute best, Jaren especially.

I suppose my gripe was that Coach Jenkins didn't try to make big adjustments to the lineup, when we knew, and he must have known, that doing the same same was going to bring the same result.

However, after having time to think about it, I can see why Jenkins didn't make those moves, like benching Jonas, because those kind of moves can be very soul destroying to the morale of the whole team.

Ultimately, if someone like a Winslow was able to contribute, after all that's what he was brought in for, we might have been able to take it to a 7th game.

We need more talent at the SF position, and a high level defensive SG who can play with both Ja and Dillon, AND knock down shots for the outside. Just my view....

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5 hours ago, toocoolkellz said:

They tried to make adjustments the last game but the writing was on the wall

Well "they" didn't really make significant adjustments, but see my post above how I can understand why "they" didn't.

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