Ace-is-high

Jaren Jackson the X factor

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On 7/20/2021 at 10:45 AM, toocoolkellz said:

I'd assume less #4 picks in the history of the draft averaged less than a double double than those that did. I get wanting him to do more, I think we all do, but imho using those guys as barometers is setting yourself up for failure 

Really???!!  I would've taken a bet on that without looking, but I went and checked anyway.  If you're speaking of a double-double in one, two, or even five seasons, then yes, there's certainly a few players who've met that criteria that were taken with the number four pick.  But there are way more who did not, and Jaren's book isn't finished being written.  If you're speaking career numbers you're just flat out wrong, because no player taken with the 4th pick in the last 50 years has averaged a double-double for his career.

Some of the expectations from posters on these boards are terribly unreasonable.  Sure, you can cherry pick the very best no. 4s over the last 20 years as @The J Crew did to shore up your argument, but the truth is that Jaren's numbers are at least average if not above average for a number four pick.

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51 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

Really???!!  I would've taken a bet on that without looking, but I went and checked anyway.  If you're speaking of a double-double in one, two, or even five seasons, then yes, there's certainly a few players who've met that criteria that were taken with the number four pick.  But there are way more who did not, and Jaren's book isn't finished being written.  If you're speaking career numbers you're just flat out wrong, because no player taken with the 4th pick in the last 50 years has averaged a double-double for his career.

Some of the expectations from posters on these boards are terribly unreasonable.  Sure, you can cherry pick the very best no. 4s over the last 20 years as @The J Crew did to shore up your argument, but the truth is that Jaren's numbers are at least average if not above average for a number four pick.

I think you have to take this quote in its context. Some posters seem to think that Jaren should average double digit rebounds simply because he's tall and he's the number 4 pick in a loaded draft.  I've asked many times, what's a realistic number that Jaren shold hit to be considered improvement so that if he reaches said number, then poster whomever can't move the goal post. I personally would be ok with him improving his career highs. 17 and 5 is his highs so I want at least 18 to 20 and 6 to 8 rebounds. I also want to see him not take dumb fouls, I never want to see him take a foul to stop the break or just dumb frustration fouls.  Also health

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1 hour ago, smit-tay griz said:

Really???!!  I would've taken a bet on that without looking, but I went and checked anyway.  If you're speaking of a double-double in one, two, or even five seasons, then yes, there's certainly a few players who've met that criteria that were taken with the number four pick.  But there are way more who did not, and Jaren's book isn't finished being written If you're speaking career numbers you're just flat out wrong, because no player taken with the 4th pick in the last 50 years has averaged a double-double for his career.

Some of the expectations from posters on these boards are terribly unreasonable.  Sure, you can cherry pick the very best no. 4s over the last 20 years as @The J Crew did to shore up your argument, but the truth is that Jaren's numbers are at least average if not above average for a number four pick.

I also said this but some seem to think his numbers are bellow league average

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5 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

I think you have to take this quote in its context. Some posters seem to think that Jaren should average double digit rebounds simply because he's tall and he's the number 4 pick in a loaded draft.  I've asked many times, what's a realistic number that Jaren shold hit to be considered improvement so that if he reaches said number, then poster whomever can't move the goal post. I personally would be ok with him improving his career highs. 17 and 5 is his highs so I want at least 18 to 20 and 6 to 8 rebounds. I also want to see him not take dumb fouls, I never want to see him take a foul to stop the break or just dumb frustration fouls.  Also health

Yeah, I realize that you're not one of the "bash Jaren" crew.  I'm just pointing out that some folks have this unrealistic idea of what a number four pick should be, and it just isn't supported by facts.  Jaren has been decent for a number four.  Not a superstar,  but he has shown flashes of really good play.  There are way too many posters jumping off the JJJ train too early.  They have their noses so far up in the air that they would rather dump a guy who could be a 17/5-18/6 player like he's easily replaceable.  It's crazy.

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42 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

I think you have to take this quote in its context. Some posters seem to think that Jaren should average double digit rebounds simply because he's tall and he's the number 4 pick in a loaded draft.  I've asked many times, what's a realistic number that Jaren shold hit to be considered improvement so that if he reaches said number, then poster whomever can't move the goal post. I personally would be ok with him improving his career highs. 17 and 5 is his highs so I want at least 18 to 20 and 6 to 8 rebounds. I also want to see him not take dumb fouls, I never want to see him take a foul to stop the break or just dumb frustration fouls.  Also health

70 games.  30 minutes.  7 rebounds.  Less than 3.5 fouls

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27 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

Yeah, I realize that you're not one of the "bash Jaren" crew.  I'm just pointing out that some folks have this unrealistic idea of what a number four pick should be, and it just isn't supported by facts.  Jaren has been decent for a number four.  Not a superstar,  but he has shown flashes of really good play.  There are way too many posters jumping off the JJJ train too early.  They have their noses so far up in the air that they would rather dump a guy who could be a 17/5-18/6 player like he's easily replaceable.  It's crazy.

I just don't get it. Mike Conley is considered one of the greatest Grizz players with career averages of 14 and 5 but a 21 year old averaging 15 and 4 is below average. It's one thing to be concerned about his injuries, that's a very valid argument, it's another to expect unrealistic/ unreasonable expectations. I have seen some of the Jaren's naysayers post numbers i can agree with as far as real expectations, j crew and chip to name a few

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4 hours ago, chipc3 said:

Who said he doesn't have heart and doesn't want to improve? 

I think you are confusing real questions on how much he has improved with a question of his heart. No one has questioned his heart that I know of. I and others have simply said he hasn't improved in the areas he was weak in since he arrived. 

Yes they have.

Were do you think the comments about his eyes or his smile originated from?

One poster even said that it was because of his supposed "privileged" upbringing.

The same poster who said that, also wanted him to average 35mins pg, and when I pointed out that that would make him the highest played on the roster by a long way, he got abusive and started calling me names.

This whole thread has become one big yawn.

People wanna set completely unrealistic and unachievable goals so that he does fail, and they can pretend they are some expert scout or analyst.

Trying to compare Jaren, to a high usage PG who is central to all the offense like Luka or Trae is just a joke, it doesn't even warrant rebuttal.

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3 hours ago, King Dork said:

I think u need to go back and watch Webber tape. Dude was not more athletic than Jaren. 

 

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49 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

Yes they have.

Were do you think the comments about his eyes or his smile originated from?

One poster even said that it was because of his supposed "privileged" upbringing.

The same poster who said that, also wanted him to average 35mins pg, and when I pointed out that that would make him the highest played on the roster by a long way, he got abusive and started calling me names.

This whole thread has become one big yawn.

People wanna set completely unrealistic and unachievable goals so that he does fail, and they can pretend they are some expert scout or analyst.

Trying to compare Jaren, to a high usage PG who is central to all the offense like Luka or Trae is just a joke, it doesn't even warrant rebuttal.

Way to try and flip the script and play victim Karen. 

This happened when I agreed with you on the stats Jaren needed to show improvement and just because I said that he should play 35 minutes you went all: Ohhh that's insane, that's too much! 

And so I looked and again agreed; OK 30 minutes then, but still not low enough for you. 

Who is setting unrealistic expectations? I agreed with you on production. If anything it's the blind 'supporters' that wants to keep lowering the bar so that they can justify their support even though history shows that he has not improved much. 

Let's just give Jaren a Max contract for participation. Buy him a gold Bentley while we are at it. 

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18 hours ago, lions said:

Happy for the Bucks  

GREAT WIN  for small market teams now there is Hope 

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7 hours ago, Teddy.B said:

Way to try and flip the script and play victim Karen. 

This happened when I agreed with you on the stats Jaren needed to show improvement and just because I said that he should play 35 minutes you went all: Ohhh that's insane, that's too much! 

And so I looked and again agreed; OK 30 minutes then, but still not low enough for you. 

Who is setting unrealistic expectations? I agreed with you on production. If anything it's the blind 'supporters' that wants to keep lowering the bar so that they can justify their support even though history shows that he has not improved much. 

Let's just give Jaren a Max contract for participation. Buy him a gold Bentley while we are at it. 

Y’all joke about giving him close to the max, I’d give him just under the Max right now and not blink. Chances are you’re going to have to give him the full Max next summer, so take the discount. 

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15 hours ago, Ja_Rules said:

Jaren is trying to be Giannis/Webber, but instead he should try to be a Dirk/Duncan/Garnett. I trully believe he is not build for that and those euro steps are a huge risk. Remember that prior the Bubble he was doing the same thing, he looked great and about to breakout as a star, but then his body colapse. I wish for the best because if he stays healthy and become the type of big he wants to we are next.

 

15 hours ago, King Dork said:

Jaren will never be those dudes. His form wouldn’t allow him to be Dirk. Duncan was a legit post big and Jaren doesn’t have the body for it and KG kinda falls into the Dirk category. 
 

Jaren is athletic, he has to harness that athleticism to be what he will end up being. What he should focus on is improving his overall strength and balance like Giannis did. His lack of base strength and balance are what has caused his injuries

jaren first injury was a thigh bruise that he could have played through but FO decide it wasn't work the risk....jaren second injury which was to his knee happen in the bubble in the pelicans game when zion fell against it.

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16 hours ago, Teddy.B said:

Sorry I've been mistaken.

Jaren has improved leaps from his rookie year. He's really upped his game. His style and dressing is on point. 

Must really be working hard flipping through those magazines since he is injured so much and can't workout. 

Image result for that's cold gif

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2 hours ago, PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan said:

 

jaren first injury was a thigh bruise that he could have played through but FO decide it wasn't work the risk....jaren second injury which was to his knee happen in the bubble in the pelicans game when zion fell against it.

Ring, you missed the last Jaren apologist conference call. That approved talking point now is that Jaren was injured all the summer of 2019 and could not work out.

The narrative that Jaren was healthy and the FO held him back is the old talking point. 

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3 hours ago, PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan said:

 

jaren first injury was a thigh bruise that he could have played through but FO decide it wasn't work the risk....jaren second injury which was to his knee happen in the bubble in the pelicans game when zion fell against it.

 

13 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Ring, you missed the last Jaren apologist conference call. That approved talking point now is that Jaren was injured all the summer of 2019 and could not work out.

The narrative that Jaren was healthy and the FO held him back is the old talking point. 

So Jaren had a severe thigh bruise that prevented him from playing after the All-Star break thru to nearly the end of the summer but that wasn't so severe that he couldn't attend the games without a limp, the summer league (again with no limp) nor work out all summer. 

Then he had a MCL issue that held him out from August until April despite the Front Office telling everyone they expected him back in late December to January. 

Do I have this correct? I don't want to misrepresent anything here. 

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31 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Ring, you missed the last Jaren apologist conference call. That approved talking point now is that Jaren was injured all the summer of 2019 and could not work out.

The narrative that Jaren was healthy and the FO held him back is the old talking point. 

 

18 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

 

So Jaren had a severe thigh bruise that prevented him from playing after the All-Star break thru to nearly the end of the summer but that wasn't so severe that he couldn't attend the games without a limp, the summer league (again with no limp) nor work out all summer. 

Then he had a MCL issue that held him out from August until April despite the Front Office telling everyone they expected him back in late December to January. 

Do I have this correct? I don't want to misrepresent anything here. 

Ok. Let’s jump into this. No one cares about his injury the 1st season, it was a soft tissue injury that isn’t a concern for the rest of his career.
 

Could he work out his first off season? Yes. He came back and upped his PPG from 14 to 17, his 3pt percentage from 28% to 38%. He clearly got better from year 1 to year 2, so why do we bring up that off-season? He showed that when he had an off season that would allow him to workout that he could get better. 
 

Both of your arguments fall apart because we all know, last off season he spent it in Memphis rehabilitating an injury. Not only that but he was thrown into game action in a year when the team literally did not practice because of the schedule the league placed on them. So with no training camp and no practice after being cleared he looked like a deer in headlights. How is that not to be expected?

Then both of you say, “we aren’t talking about last year (even though we keep bringing it up) we are talking about going forward”. Because you have doubts about if he will get better with an off season to work on his skills. That’s literally not based in reality because the only other off season he had he increased his scoring average by 3 ppg!

But go ahead and switch to talking about his rebounding or how he smiles too much or dresses weird. I have no doubt that he will come back better than year 2 in year 4 because he’s putting in the work, because he’s healthy this off-season!!

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19 minutes ago, King Dork said:

 

Ok. Let’s jump into this. No one cares about his injury the 1st season, it was a soft tissue injury that isn’t a concern for the rest of his career.
This isn't a concern only if you are saying that particular injury has no lasting impact on his game. The length of time it took to recover from an injury you said "he could have played through but the front office decided to hold him out." Instead of playing through the injury he took the rest of the season off, summer league off and summer workouts off. I believe that qualifies in some people's eyes as a concern.  

Could he work out his first off season? Yes. He came back and upped his PPG from 14 to 17, his 3pt percentage from 28% to 38%. He clearly got better from year 1 to year 2, so why do we bring up that off-season? He showed that when he had an off season that would allow him to workout that he could get better. 
He improved if you only look at his absolute scoring numbers. His FG% went down, his rebounding didn't improve, his fouling didn't improve, his blocked shots didn't improve. Outside of taking more shots without Conley around and a higher 3 pt percentage his "improvement" was negligible at best.  

Both of your arguments fall apart because we all know, last off season he spent it in Memphis rehabilitating an injury. Not only that but he was thrown into game action in a year when the team literally did not practice because of the schedule the league placed on them. So with no training camp and no practice after being cleared he looked like a deer in headlights. How is that not to be expected?
Very true but the length of the rehab is a concern which goes back to the injury you want us to ignore. He originally was going to be fine for the start of the regular season. Then he'd be ready by late December. Then by late January. He didn't actually make an appearance until April which was 8 months after his injury for a procedure most players return from in 8-12 weeks according to some doctors assuming you are doing the therapy as instructed. It is the length of recovery that worries fans of the team. 

Then both of you say, “we aren’t talking about last year (even though we keep bringing it up) we are talking about going forward”. Because you have doubts about if he will get better with an off season to work on his skills. That’s literally not based in reality because the only other off season he had he increased his scoring average by 3 ppg!
Again you are focused on scoring averages and not FG%, rebounding, fouls, play-making, etc. Do you expect his usage to increase again to compensate his flat to down FG shooting percentages, the lack of rebounding, the foul issues and the rest? You keep focusing on his scoring while myself and others are talking about the parts of his game that need improvement and three point shooting isn't one of them. 

But go ahead and switch to talking about his rebounding or how he smiles too much or dresses weird. I have no doubt that he will come back better than year 2 in year 4 because he’s putting in the work, because he’s healthy this off-season!!
I sincerely hope you are correct. I honestly do. I would love for him to show improvement in the areas of his game that are weaknesses (post up game, rebounding, fouls, playmaking, etc) so he becomes the player you and others believe him capable of becoming. I want him to become something more than he has shown so far.  

As for the smiling and dancing on the sidelines while he is too injured to play, I couldn't care less honestly. I wish he was as passionate on his recovery regimine as he appears to be on his clothing and dance moves but if he's playing and improving I couldn't care less about the rest. It just irritates people who want to see him playing basketball to hear he is too injured to play but not too injured to dance. It's a bad look. 

 

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5 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

 

Getting off shots in the NBA is a skill. Changing roles from bit player to primary offensive option is a skill. He transitioned in volume and you ignored a 10% jump in his 3pt percentage, while his 3pt attempts increased. Heck you’re ignoring that he shot 50% from the field when he returned from injury this season he just had less attempts because the offense was being played based on JV and Ja shot attempts. So give Jaren his same amount of attempts on that new efficiency and he would have improved his scoring average by your logic. 
 

Bottom line. He has to improve his rebounding, sure. He has to lower his fouls, sure. But offensively from a scoring perspective I expect another jump and with that alone he’s worth what they will have to pay him. If he increases his rebounding and stops making boneheaded fouls he becomes a borderline allstar. But anyone who says he can’t be a Max guy scoring 20 ppg on good to great efficiency, with 3pt range, switchability defensively and his shot blocking ability doesn’t understand the business of basketball.

They can pay someone a lot less money to come be our rebounder, heck they already pay one now in JV. 20 ppg (even 17ppg if you don’t believe he will improve) scorers don’t grow on trees. When you get one, you hold onto them. 

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11 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Both of your arguments fall apart because we all know, last off season he spent it in Memphis rehabilitating an injury. Not only that but he was thrown into game action in a year when the team literally did not practice because of the schedule the league placed on them. So with no training camp and no practice after being cleared he looked like a deer in headlights. How is that not to be expected?
Very true but the length of the rehab is a concern which goes back to the injury you want us to ignore. He originally was going to be fine for the start of the regular season. Then he'd be ready by late December. Then by late January. He didn't actually make an appearance until April which was 8 months after his injury for a procedure most players return from in 8-12 weeks according to some doctors assuming you are doing the therapy as instructed. It is the length of recovery that worries fans of the team. 

That's a valid point but let's not forget that we recovery time we were expecting originally was based on the information provided by an organization that is notoriously opaque about injuries. It's possible that Jaren took longer than expected to recover from a relatively mild injury, but it's also possible that the injury wasn't mild at all, or that there was some major setback (i.e. reinjury) during the recovery process and the organization simply didn't let anybody know. For all we know the FO knew he would likely miss almost a year from the get go and just strung everyone along with continuous revisions of the predicted return date. It wouldn't be the first time.

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2 hours ago, chipc3 said:

 

So Jaren had a severe thigh bruise that prevented him from playing after the All-Star break thru to nearly the end of the summer but that wasn't so severe that he couldn't attend the games without a limp, the summer league (again with no limp) nor work out all summer

Then he had a MCL issue that held him out from August until April despite the Front Office telling everyone they expected him back in late December to January. 

Do I have this correct? I don't want to misrepresent anything here. 

what info do you have that he wasn't working on his game...imo you are just saying it with no facts to back it up.

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54 minutes ago, PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan said:

what info do you have that he wasn't working on his game...imo you are just saying it with no facts to back it up.

Actually he said it even though there were facts and video evidence to back it up. 

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7 hours ago, PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan said:

 

jaren first injury was a thigh bruise that he could have played through but FO decide it wasn't work the risk....jaren second injury which was to his knee happen in the bubble in the pelicans game when zion fell against it.

I thought the thigh bruise was the same injury Kawhi Leonard had? If you read up on that he most definitely couldn’t play on that

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