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chipc3

Memphis Grizzlies @ Golden State Warriors -5/16/21

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37 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Ok . . . don't know about conspiracy theories, but opinions can differ I guess.

Anyway, I found and posted the tweet. 25 games is a pretty decent sample size. We'll see, I guess. I hope Jonas is here for years, so wasn't happy to read the contrast. And I obviously don't think JJJ rebounds well enough to be a starting 5, and will constantly be in foul trouble. It's a conundrum. 

its about the defense and playstyle of the teams in the top.   They are usually heavy PickNRoll teams and shoot well from 3.  Those two things really expose jonas weaknesses on defense.   In modern NBA basketball it is more impactful to have a Center that can anchor a defense (Gobert) than a Center that leads team in scoring (KAT).   That is why even tho Jonas is our most productive player our offense should never be centered around him.   His beasting on the boards is probably more valuable to our wins than his point production.   Its just the way it is now. 

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3 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

Small sample size indeed . 13 has not even been available (healthy) enough to make ANY type of observations good / or bad …

his fashion ‘sense’ on the sidelines… plenty of observations 

We can’t even honestly say that his penchant for fouling everybody has decreased based on a few games at the end of the season…

I have not even tried to confirm this -> but my eye test has JV eating the offensive glass… I may be wrong.

Eye test again, but the starting Center position belongs to JV.  Without his work while 13 was out we probably wouldn’t even be in the position that we are in now.

Now I would agree with finding ways to get them on the floor together …

Watching not only 13 …but ‘bigs’ all over the league can now go more than a couple of possessions withOUT even crossing the 3 point line.

Only a fool would think that anyone on this team other than JV should start at center.  It isn't even remotely close.

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1 minute ago, smit-tay griz said:

Only a fool would think that anyone on this team other than JV should start at center.  It isn't even remotely close.

I might start Bane/Dillon/Kyle at 2-4 but either bring Jaren or Jonas off the bench.  Each guy can play and JV can kick starting front lines around but both guys should be able to DOMINATE second units.  You optimize the starters and max out your 6th man — plus you still have your toolsy bench guys (Tyus/Melton/Konchar/BC/Tillman).  

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4 hours ago, chipc3 said:

JJJ is assumed to be playing Center when he's paired with Brandon Clarke and/or Xavier Tillman despite the reality that JJJ plays on the perimeter and lets Clarke and Tillman take the workload inside. My eye test has JJJ playing PF with undersized centers but that is just my opinion. 

I agree with this.  I don't think it would be wrong to keep him at PF either, but I would rather see him paired with Tillman than BC as things have been this season.

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3 hours ago, The J Crew said:

Here's the Keith Parish Jonas starting stat:

 

So, you notice he does not mention the opponents involved.  Tillman has started twelve games this season.  The Grizzlies won against Phoenix (1/18), San Antonio (1/30 & 2/1), Portland (4/23) & Dallas (5/11).  They also won against Sacramento on 5/14. 

For the Phoenix game, if you check the box score,that game was won by the bench, with Tyus, Gorgui and Grayson dominating the Suns reserves. The two San Antonio games were after the two week hiatus due to health and safety protocols. Gorgui played more minutes that Tillman in both games. The Portland win was again due to the bench, with Jaren scoring 23 playing center. And the Dallas game was almost entirely the bench without either Jonas or Jaren.

Tillman's aggregate +/- in those five games was +9. His +/- in the losses against  WC playoff teams(Phoenix 2/20, Denver 4/19, & Clippers 4/21) was -26.  If you throw in the game against Indiana on 2/2, that number becomes -46 against playoff teams. As a starter, Tillman is -28 for the whole season.

The fact that this guy missed one of the losses tells me at least something about him with regard to attention to detail. 

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3 hours ago, The J Crew said:

Here's the Keith Parish Jonas starting stat:

 

I wouldn't put too much faith in that stat line continuing.  I could be wrong, but I think that's more than likely an aberration which will not hold true over time.

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18 minutes ago, Wells said:

So, you notice he does not mention the opponents involved.  Tillman has started twelve games this season.  

The fact that this guy missed one of the losses tells me at least something about him with regard to attention to detail. 

Dude, it's a tweet, not a 1,500 word article, he didn't have room to mention all the opponents. Listen to his pod and he goes through the games in detail.

And, he didn't miss a game, you missed the date. His tweet was from May 13th, X started his 12th game the next day, May 14th. 

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15 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

I wouldn't put too much faith in that stat line continuing.  I could be wrong, but I think that's more than likely an aberration which will not hold true over time.

Maybe you're right. I thought it was an interesting stat. It's good to look at statistics that are opposite of what we think, not just ones we agree with. 

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2 hours ago, The J Crew said:

Dude, it's a tweet, not a 1,500 word article, he didn't have room to mention all the opponents. Listen to his pod and he goes through the games in detail.

And, he didn't miss a game, you missed the date. His tweet was from May 13th, X started his 12th game the next day, May 14th. 

The May 14th game was not against a Western Conference Playoff contender (Sacramento). He missed one of the three losses (Clippers, Nuggets or Suns), all of which occurred before 4/22.

The guy was trying to drive clicks with faulty data.  5-2 sounds better than 5-3, which sounds even better than 6-6 (Tillman's actual record as a starter). Might it instead be that the whole team got up more for those games early in the season, especially for the two games where they had just come off of ten days of rest against the Spurs who had played five games while the Grizzlies were doing nothing before coming in on the second night of a Back to Back?

Would his message sound as good if it had been reversed?  What if his point had been the Grizzlies were 6-6 with anyone other than Jonas starting at center, but were 31-27 with him starting, with season sweeps of the Nets, Heat, Hornets, Sixers and Wizards?

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On 5/15/2021 at 9:02 AM, lions said:

The Warriors are playing good and our Grizzlies are playing  very well now. if we can this Win this Game vs a very Good Warriors team on the Road with all this on the Line .this may start our Title run with in the next3/4 years  BIG GAME /statement Game SUNDAY 

we still have a ways to go 

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7 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

its about the defense and playstyle of the teams in the top.   They are usually heavy PickNRoll teams and shoot well from 3.  Those two things really expose jonas weaknesses on defense.   In modern NBA basketball it is more impactful to have a Center that can anchor a defense (Gobert) than a Center that leads team in scoring (KAT).   That is why even tho Jonas is our most productive player our offense should never be centered around him.   His beasting on the boards is probably more valuable to our wins than his point production.   Its just the way it is now. 

Or gif, you can look at jv’s 12 for 15 versus our 6 for 25 from 3 and make the only case we blew it with our inability to adjust to the oldest truth in sports that will never change...just win baby.  So sorry don’t agree with your view that is the way it is now...play Memphis ball not nba ball

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1 hour ago, Lugan Village said:

Or gif, you can look at jv’s 12 for 15 versus our 6 for 25 from 3 and make the only case we blew it with our inability to adjust to the oldest truth in sports that will never change...just win baby.  So sorry don’t agree with your view that is the way it is now...play Memphis ball not nba ball

I fully understand what Memphis ball is.  arguably Zbo was most beloved Grizz in franchise history and we catered our offense (Post-centric) around him as long as we could.  But Modern NBA made that type of bball obsolete and we struggled for years trying to fit a square peg into a round hole unsuccessfully.   This is a fanbase that fully understands and appreciates Bigs that can score inside and beast on the boards but we also understand the limitation in making that your primary playstyle.   Jonas is a good weapon to have but if we have to rely on him to be the primary offensive weapon we wont get far. 

 

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15 hours ago, chipc3 said:

JJJ is assumed to be playing Center when he's paired with Brandon Clarke and/or Xavier Tillman despite the reality that JJJ plays on the perimeter and lets Clarke and Tillman take the workload inside. My eye test has JJJ playing PF with undersized centers but that is just my opinion. 

Bingo

I keep reading that 13 is a center… while he keeps going out playing like a 4 - a face up, foul prone, jump shooting 4. 
 

Being the tallest does not make him a center just like launching 3s doesn’t make him a sniper.

I think people are starting to get loose with what the traditional meaning of a starting center …

position-less basketball is almost here. 5 ballers that can handle, pass, shoot, defend and rebound.

Since I’m out here …

Is it possible that we have other teams struggling to find a way to match up with OUR very own big burly feed the post and watch out CENTER?

We both undervalue and overvalue our own squad quite a bit on the boards… ( lots of times in the SAME thread ) 

we go from :

this guy sucks let’s trade him to (whoever doesn’t really matter because who’s trading us treasure for guys we call trash)? 

all the way to :

this third string guy is killing the game … all he needs is to be fed so and so’s starter minutes and plan the parade down Beale. 

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5 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I fully understand what Memphis ball is.  arguably Zbo was most beloved Grizz in franchise history and we catered our offense (Post-centric) around him as long as we could.  But Modern NBA made that type of bball obsolete and we struggled for years trying to fit a square peg into a round hole unsuccessfully.   This is a fanbase that fully understands and appreciates Bigs that can score inside and beast on the boards but we also understand the limitation in making that your primary playstyle.   Jonas is a good weapon to have but if we have to rely on him to be the primary offensive weapon we wont get far. 

 

I disagree about the why we encountered a swift decline from macbo to the years of missing the playoffs: The NBA didn’t phase us out -> feed 50 got old … he never was a gazelle… he forced his style on the opponents. When he couldn’t do that anymore… we got what we got.

Coaches got fired, players / traded bought out not resigned , front office personnel changed.

We ended up with Mike and Marc.

Marc went and got a ring right quick.

Pau , years before, was sent to The House of Kobe and got him a ring too.

TA got his in Boston- before he got here. 

Mike … he’s sitting up top with an eye on that trophy - right.Now.

The west had to game plan for our slow it down, grind it out, beat you up style.

You can’t build a Porsche using parts from a tug boat.

We didn’t get replacements to continue that style PLUS we couldn’t keep a coach long enough to really develop a sustainable ‘style’.

You play the 13 cards you’re dealt. Find a way to make the most of what you have first.

So , with Zbo, Mike,  Marc, and TA… we were Grit and Grind because our guys were literally Grit and Grind.

It was BPA ( I don’t disagree here ) but even after drafting the next piece to change our style - we didn’t / couldn’t trade pieces that we had for guys to fit our vision.

 

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Sometimes I tune the boards out for a few days … longest - a week.

Hearing other coaches and game announcers and other team’s fans, even the talking heads on sports talk shows sometimes makes me wonder if the boards are watching the same games.

We are not as bad as it would appear here.

We are not as close to contending as it would appear here.

We do seem to have a plan to feed the front office’s vision moving forward.

We ARE (right now) close to the dreaded ‘middle’ of the pack type team. I  am ok with where we are now because I can see the incremental improvement.

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2 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

I disagree about the why we encountered a swift decline from macbo to the years of missing the playoffs: The NBA didn’t phase us out -> feed 50 got old … he never was a gazelle… he forced his style on the opponents. When he couldn’t do that anymore… we got what we got.

Coaches got fired, players / traded bought out not resigned , front office personnel changed.

We ended up with Mike and Marc.

Marc went and got a ring right quick.

Pau , years before, was sent to The House of Kobe and got him a ring too.

TA got his in Boston- before he got here. 

Mike … he’s sitting up top with an eye on that trophy - right.Now.

The west had to game plan for our slow it down, grind it out, beat you up style.

You can’t build a Porsche using parts from a tug boat.

We didn’t get replacements to continue that style PLUS we couldn’t keep a coach long enough to really develop a sustainable ‘style’.

You play the 13 cards you’re dealt. Find a way to make the most of what you have first.

So , with Zbo, Mike,  Marc, and TA… we were Grit and Grind because our guys were literally Grit and Grind.

It was BPA ( I don’t disagree here ) but even after drafting the next piece to change our style - we didn’t / couldn’t trade pieces that we had for guys to fit our vision.

 

The argument is as old as the term "Grit and Grind". There's the idea of being a tough as nails team, grinding the other teams out through effort and not giving up, which I think is a matter of identity across the organization and should not be dependent on who our core players are, and there's the style of play during those years, which was very much dictated by the abilities and characteristics of our core players. I've never understood why we have to throw the former away with the latter.

To be clear, maybe Ja and JJJ are not dawgs in the way ZBo and TA were (and Mike and Marc weren't). There's no reason why we can't surround them with players like DB who can contribute dawgness in spades. Likewise, if our core players are better suited for a run and gun style of play we don't need to force them into a different style when we get into playoff mode, we just need to complement them with players who can perform in half court offense. Few teams represent run and guns like the Warriors, but they got the pieces needed to keep clicking when the game slows down.

Now, do we have those pieces right now? I don't think so (or we do but don't know yet, half our players are on rookie contracts) but we have a blueprint to get them:

- Ja performs better in the open court, so we need to be good at forcing turnovers. We need one or two ball hawks on the court at all times to force fast breaks. -> This seems to be well in progress

- In half court settings Ja operates better when there's spacing and he can probe and penetrate. Aside from becoming a better shooter it would help if we had a good secondary ball handler so that Ja could spend more time without the ball and exploit mismatches. -> I'm not sure we have this, arguably our best secondary ballhandler is Slomo (Tyus is a backup, he can't spend long stretches with Ja on the court). DB or Melton improving their ball handling would be great in this regard, but I think in the end we need a better all around player at SG.

- JJJ is not a post player. Period. I expect that he will improve and at least be able to post up lesser players, but our offense will have to take his base game into account by having a player that can play in the low post while being mobile enough to keep the lane open when needed and not a liability on defense. -> JV, as great as he is, lacks mobility and that's unlikely to improve with age. Tillman is exactly the kind of player we need, only 3-4 inches shorter. I could see JV improving his defense somewhat in the right scheme because he's smart, but I don't see Tillman ever defending a 7 footer effectively unless he turns into Draymond Green. I think the most likely scenario is this piece isn't there yet, and JV will eventually slide to the bench (that if he's not traded at the height of his value).

----

Going back to the good old days, I'm sure if we hadn't picked Thabeet our style would have developed differently given the caliber of players that were available to us. If you get a Curry or a Harden in 2009 then your options open up and the existing core pieces are not so critical. I mean, as much as I hate the idea of a team without ZBo we could have built the team to be much faster with the ball if we didn't depend so much on his offensive production.

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16 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I fully understand what Memphis ball is.  arguably Zbo was most beloved Grizz in franchise history and we catered our offense (Post-centric) around him as long as we could.  But Modern NBA made that type of bball obsolete and we struggled for years trying to fit a square peg into a round hole unsuccessfully.   This is a fanbase that fully understands and appreciates Bigs that can score inside and beast on the boards but we also understand the limitation in making that your primary playstyle.   Jonas is a good weapon to have but if we have to rely on him to be the primary offensive weapon we wont get far. 

 

Agree...the more options we have, secure or develop the better off and more competitive we will be.  I just wince every time we force shots, drives or passes that don’t make sense at certain times in the game when we have a high efficient option with jv that isn’t utilized when needed.

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1 hour ago, Lugan Village said:

Agree...the more options we have, secure or develop the better off and more competitive we will be.  I just wince every time we force shots, drives or passes that don’t make sense at certain times in the game when we have a high efficient option with jv that isn’t utilized when needed.

yea i do too when we see jonas has BBq chicken guarding him.  i don't like it when they fall in love with the 3. 

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