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43 minutes ago, JWill4L said:

@fanboyslim said it first: declining Winslow TO doesn't mean anything for this July. You need to also to get rid of Bird rights to get close to 25M, which is not even the max.

Question is: is there any non-max free-agent SF who you would pay 25M to get? The answer is no.

I'd roll with Winslow one more year. Let's see what a healthy off-season can do for him. He is still an SF with size, ball-handling ability and pretty good defense.

It could be a combo of using some cap space on picking up a bad contract plus pick like they always do then signing a player in the 15-20 m range like a Porter.   Or a good SF could be drafted to pair with Brooks and a 2 guard like Powell could be signed.  Then offering the 5 m room exception to Winslow which is about the most he should be able to get on the market. 

Also, guys like Allen and Jones are also expendable in my eyes for more cap space depending on who is drafted/signed. 

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2 hours ago, JWill4L said:

@fanboyslim said it first: declining Winslow TO doesn't mean anything for this July. You need to also to get rid of Bird rights to get close to 25M, which is not even the max.

Question is: is there any non-max free-agent SF who you would pay 25M to get? The answer is no.

I'd roll with Winslow one more year. Let's see what a healthy off-season can do for him. He is still an SF with size, ball-handling ability and pretty good defense.

The best thing about keeping Winslow for one more season is he will be in a contract year and most players come ready to play when a new contract is involved. 

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17 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

 Bet.

Now break it down ... ( no snark at all ... really asking)

what changed your opinion? I listed mine... want to hear other opinions.

Right move at that time...

But now ? 
Is it that we could use the money somewhere else or hurt too much or ...?
 

Well, really...my opinion is that the move was always a calculated gamble. Sometimes gambles don't work out, and this is a time in which it didn't. As a poker player, the only analogy I can make is that sometimes you make a play that will work the majority of the time, and a small minority of the time, it doesn't work out in your favor. That doesn't mean the play wasn't correct just because the result was not to your favor.

The FO made the trade with the understanding that some of the time JW's injuries would either keep him off the floor or potentially keep him from being the player they thought he could be. And some of the time the player just isn't as good as they evaluated him to be. That's the nature of trades. They weighed what they would lose - cap room, potentially resigning Crowder....we've all gone over this stuff enough - with what they could gain - a potential *great* fit and 3rd/4th piece to grow with our team.

Now, I'm of the opinion that the potential moves we could make by not picking up his option are more valuable than the potential for him to be the player we want him to be next year. On the other hand, the FO may know that Justise is important for the locker room or the chemistry of the team, and that's not something we could ever know. Maybe in their judgment the cap space we would gain by declining his option isn't worth a disruption to the locker room or the potential for him to still be the piece they want.

But I'm ready to make the gamble on that cap space rather than Winslow at this point.

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7 hours ago, chipc3 said:

The best thing about keeping Winslow for one more season is he will be in a contract year and most players come ready to play when a new contract is involved. 

Chip, I don;t care much for players that need to be motivated by a contract.  For instance did JV play fall off after he re-signed for 3 years?  You could make the argument his play is better, and he is motivated by wins, competition and team...Ja seems to fit that profile, and I think Jaren does as well, but it's getting harder for me to remember

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3 hours ago, Lugan Village said:

Chip, I don;t care much for players that need to be motivated by a contract.  For instance did JV play fall off after he re-signed for 3 years?  You could make the argument his play is better, and he is motivated by wins, competition and team...Ja seems to fit that profile, and I think Jaren does as well, but it's getting harder for me to remember

It isn’t an issue of if you care for it or not. It is a fact that players averages usually go up in a contract year. 

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5 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

It isn’t an issue of if you care for it or not. It is a fact that players averages usually go up in a contract year. 

Can I hope this is JW’s contract year since we have the team option?
 

And hope Justise is playing somewhere else next season? 

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1 minute ago, The J Crew said:

Can I hope this is JW’s contract year since we have the team option?
 

And hope Justise is playing somewhere else next season? 

Hope is always an option...

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10 hours ago, chipc3 said:

It isn’t an issue of if you care for it or not. It is a fact that players averages usually go up in a contract year. 

Next year JV 25/15

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10 hours ago, The J Crew said:

Can I hope this is JW’s contract year since we have the team option?
 

And hope Justise is playing somewhere else next season? 

It won't happen....admitting mistakes is really hard. 

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Well, JW can't improve his averages if he's mainly on the injury list most of the season.  So, he has to find a way to stay off the injury list, work on his injured areas, strengthening them and conditioning them.  

I want him to play more and play to his potential.  But, only playing a few games a year is not worth his pay.  We could get a less potential player, get more minutes and more production.

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My main issue with JW is the injuries.  He just appears to have that injury prone hex.  If he was available, you could get solid use from him for what he brings to the table.  Just...you know...he's hurt.  A lot.

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13 hours ago, chipc3 said:

The best thing about keeping Winslow for one more season is he will be in a contract year and most players come ready to play when a new contract is involved. 

 

This, and I believe the FO will retain him as it kicks the can down the road for 1 more season to determine what to do with him.  

Plus, it may be much easier to do a deal next year, if needed, as the contracts of Tyus, Grayson, Winslow, and Kyle Anderson can all be expiring, and offer plenty of flexibility in doing a deal.

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14 hours ago, chipc3 said:

It isn’t an issue of if you care for it or not. It is a fact that players averages usually go up in a contract year. 

NBA is the league that up to recent years so much emphasis is only on skills and size...character didn't or doesn't matter.  Teams are restricted to types of interviews and questions during workout days that other leagues do.  Prospect cannot also not agree to be interviewed.  But in the big data anlaytics rooms that some NBA teams have equipped themselves with for player and prospect evaluations, prediction models are heavily dependent on insights and profile for both a "winning player" and the dynamics of a "winning team".  I understand that the reality is players perform better for their next contract...I don;t care for those players, I want winners for a team approach

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JW needs to work hard between injuries.  His injuries don't sound serious, that he has to stay on the injury list as long as he has.  Doctors and coaches need to push him harder during rehab.  If he resists or don't like it, trade him.

We don't pay players good money just to be a high paying water boys.

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https://theathletic.com/2507048/2021/04/09/james-wiseman-dennis-schroder-lonzo-ball-big-front-office-decisions-hinge-on-the-play-of-these-seven-players/

From Hollinger's piece in The Athletic:

Quote

Justise Winslow, Memphis

The Grizzlies seem likely headed for the play-in tournament with or without Winslow, but his play could have a massive influence on what happens this offseason.

Memphis is coming to the first important node on its rebuilding decision tree, as Winslow has a $13 million team option for 2021-22. Acquired along with a pair of bad contracts from Miami at the 2020 trade deadline, Winslow missed the rest of the 2019-20 season and has only played 16 games this year.

His few appearances have mostly been a disappointment, including a gasp-inducing 5-for-41 mark on 3s and a 42.9 percent conversion rate inside the arc. While the focus has been on his 3-point shooting, Winslow’s career mark of 44.6 percent on 2s also serves as a warning flag about his overall offense.

Moreover, the combo forward spot he was originally envisioned to take over has instead been rather capably manned by Kyle Anderson, who has emerged as a 3-point threat (65 makes this year after 82 combined in his first six NBA seasons) in addition to his Slo-Mo stylings in the lane.

The team option is a big deal because the Grizzlies can potentially have $25 million in cap room by declining it (and waiving the lightly guaranteed contract of Jontay Porter). Additionally, this is likely Memphis’ last traipse through the cap room forest for several years, as Jaren Jackson Jr. and Ja Morant will both command large contract extensions the next two offseasons. Yes, Memphis could roll cap room into the 2022 offseason, but it would almost certainly cost the Griz at least one of Anderson or Jonas Valanciunas.

Of course, the lure of cap space is immediately offset by the larger question: cap space to sign who? The age of Memphis’ core also argues for younger free agents who are all restricted, adding another layer of complexity. Could Lonzo Ball be a fit next to Morant, and could they grenade him out of New Orleans? Is John Collins a realistic partner for Jackson? Could they blow away Miami with an offer sheet on Duncan Robinson, or make the Lakers blink by dropping the Tyler Johnson Special on 20-year-old swingman Talen Horton-Tucker? (If the Grizzlies really want to swing big, the “full Tyler Johnson” would be four years, $82 million.)

Or are they better off, at the end of the day, walking the full mile with the 25-year-old Winslow and keeping their powder dry for future trades that might be more advantageous?

If Winslow plays like the player the Grizzlies envisioned at the time of the trade, it would be a lot easier to proceed down that road

 

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41 minutes ago, fanboyslim said:

We need to see Jaren before making a real decision.    Because it is extremely evident that Kyle and Dillon are most productive in their current positions and our SG should be able to actually shoot.     We will have 3 guys that's best position is PF and 3 guys whose best position is SG.   Out of our current rotation Dillon and Justise are the only true SF's.     However, Jaren and Brandon seem to be prone to miss time so having Kyle around to plug and play is great insurance. 

When Jaren comes back i don't want Taylor to go back to Kyle + Dillon wing rotation because that has been our weakest pairing.   Who we draft will make the Justise decision easier.   If we get a guy that can credibly play SF then we won't need Justise.    I am/was a big Justise fan for his fit with the Grizz but if dude health always gonna be an issue there is no reason to continue to invest.   It isn't like he is some generational talent. 

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It's amazing to me that there is so much discussion about a guy who is about to finish his sixth year and is 25 years old as to whether or not he has the potential to be much better than he has shown in six years. Do I think the Grizz will pick up his option? Yes, probably at 99.99999% sure they will. I wouldn't or if I did pick it up, I would use him in a draft day trade. This dude is in his sixth year, constantly injured, has a 5 PER and is avg 7 ppg and 5 boards. Yes, he's a really good defender when healthy but if it came down to him and Kyle Anderson, I'm taking KA everyday. I'm taking DB over Justise all day everyday.

I just don't see where he fits going forward. Yes, he gives us depth but he's always injured and doesn't do much special. It's like people are holding on to dreams and hopes of more potential yet we are closing in at finishing his sixth year and him showing you again and again who he is. It depends on if we can get a high scoring wing but as far as the SF rotation, I have him 3rd behind DB and KA (who is a 3/4 like Justise and may be better suited at 4 these days but then we have BC who I would take over Justise as well)

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5 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

It's amazing to me that there is so much discussion abound a guy who is about to finish his sixth year and is 25 years old as to whether or not he has the potential to be much better than he has shown in six years. Do I think the Grizz will pick up his optiom? Yes, probably at 99.99999% sure they will. I wouldn't or if I did pick it up, I would use him in a draft day trade. This dude is in his sixth year, constantly injured, has a 5 PER and is avg 7 ppg and 5 boards. Yes, he's a really good defender when healthy but if it came down to him and Kyle Anderson, I'm taking KA everyday. I'm taking DB over Justise all day everyday.

I just don't see where he fits going forward. Yes, he gives us depth but he's always injured and doesn't do much special. It's like people are holding on to dreams and hopes of more potential yet we are closing in at finishing his sixth year and him showing you again and again who he is. It depends on if we can get a high scoring wing but as far as the SF rotation, I have him 3rd behind DB and KA (who is a 3/4 like Justise and may be better suited at 4 these days but then we have BC who I would take over Justise as well)

Yeah I am with you there.  Hell even Grayson Allen.  Toss up between Winslow and Konchar at this point.  As much as I have not liked DB, Winslow has given me a whole new appreciation for him.  Even when healthy he doesn't appear to be much more than a major offensive liability who we are going to have to force into a certain role because his game doesn't naturally flow into the offense like the other players and his defense is only good in certain situations and really isn't impactful nightly.  This is before we discuss the injuries. 

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23 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

It's amazing to me that there is so much discussion abound a guy who is about to finish his sixth year and is 25 years old as to whether or not he has the potential to be much better than he has shown in six years. Do I think the Grizz will pick up his optiom? Yes, probably at 99.99999% sure they will. I wouldn't or if I did pick it up, I would use him in a draft day trade. This dude is in his sixth year, constantly injured, has a 5 PER and is avg 7 ppg and 5 boards. Yes, he's a really good defender when healthy but if it came down to him and Kyle Anderson, I'm taking KA everyday. I'm taking DB over Justise all day everyday.

 

Agree. I think part of it is the Wallace vs. Kleiman thing. To many, Wallace/Hollinger could do no right, & Kleiman/Cho can do no wrong. It's hard for those who think Kleiman can do no wrong to process what a colossal screw up the Miami trade was. 

The trade was sold as acquiring the 3rd star, a wing to go with Ja at the point and a big, Jaren. And, by taking 3 non-expiring contracts off of MIami, delaying our cap space to the free agent rich summer of '21. Anyone can go back and read the articles at the time if they doubt this.

14 months later, we know Justise is a poor player. And most, if not all, of the top free agents have signed extensions already, so it will be a weak free agent class this summer. 

 

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11 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Agree. I think part of it is the Wallace vs. Kleiman thing. To many, Wallace/Hollinger could do no right, & Kleiman/Cho can do no wrong. It's hard for those who think Kleiman can do no wrong to process what a colossal screw up the Miami trade was. 

The trade was sold as acquiring the 3rd star, a wing to go with Ja at the point and a big, Jaren. And, by taking 3 non-expiring contracts off of MIami, delaying our cap space to the free agent rich summer of '21. Anyone can go back and read the articles at the time if they doubt this.

14 months later, we know Justise is a poor player. And most, if not all, of the top free agents have signed extensions already, so it will be a weak free agent class this summer. 

 

Who were we getting and who did you want to sign?   I think FO got benefit of the doubt and thought Justise was a good gamble for these reasons

  • Kyle was looking like a poor fit due to not shooting 3s and not being a true SF
  • Nobody worth overpaying for in free agency and MIA was only willing trade partner
  • FO just extended Dillon and thought he was a wing solution. 

I am still trying to figure out who were the Top Free Agents we could've traded Iggy for or signed this offseason.   

 

I can agree that Justise probably wasn't worth the headache.  but you all have to admit that Kyle, DeMelt, and Bane's play greatly affects our perception in this.   None of that was a known when FO traded for Winslow.    At the time Grayson Josh and Melton were the only prospects on the team.    

In hindsight would have rather picked up Josh's option rather than trade for Justise.   

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7 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Who were we getting and who did you want to sign?   I think FO got benefit of the doubt and thought Justise was a good gamble for these reasons

  • Kyle was looking like a poor fit due to not shooting 3s and not being a true SF
  • Nobody worth overpaying for in free agency and MIA was only willing trade partner
  • FO just extended Dillon and thought he was a wing solution. 

I am still trying to figure out who were the Top Free Agents we could've traded Iggy for or signed this offseason.   

I can agree that Justise probably wasn't worth the headache.  but you all have to admit that Kyle, DeMelt, and Bane's play greatly affects our perception in this.   None of that was a known when FO traded for Winslow.   

In hindsight would have rather picked up Josh's option rather than trade for Justise.   

Jerami Grant, for one. I'd sure rather be paying him $20M this season than Dion Waiters $12.6M, Justise $13M, and Gorgui $17.3M.

And I hate this "who would be get anyway?" fake argument. Should we just burn our maybe $27M in cap space this summer too? You know, because who are we going to get anyway? It's such a vapid argument.

Cap space is so valuable. We got ZBo because we had cap space after the Clippers drafted Blake. We have the Warriors '24 first because we had cap space. Could come up with 20 more examples of the value of cap space. You don't just use cap space on free agents. 

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3 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Jerami Grant, for one. I'd sure rather be paying him $20M this season than Dion Waiters $12.6M, Justise $13M, and Gorgui $17.3M.

And I hate this "who would be get anyway?" fake argument. Should we just burn our maybe $27M in cap space this summer too? You know, because who are we going to get anyway? It's such a vapid argument.

Cap space is so valuable. We got ZBo because we had cap space after the Clippers drafted Blake. We have the Warriors '24 first because we had cap space. Could come up with 20 more examples of the value of cap space. You don't just use cap space on free agents. 

Fake argument is saying we couldve gotten x player because that is always speculation as well.  Also i don't lose sleep over what NBA teams spend - it aint my money.   

They weren't ready to start handing out $20m contracts yet it was too early in the build.   Who would we get was a real argument and im sure they thought about that before trading with Miami.    

You still have to understand that at the time Dillon was projected to be the starting SG and we had no long-term prospects for SF.   Trade was only way to acquire a true SF in Ja' and Jaren's window.   Newsflash teams arent lining up to trade young SF's with potential.   So it was always gonna be a gamble.  

Then as the article shows if it doesnt workout they can still open up enough capspace this summer to be a player in FA.   Truthfully no harm no foul. 

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Just now, GrizzTigerFan said:

Fake argument is saying we couldve gotten x player because that is always speculation as well.  Also i don't lose sleep over what NBA teams spend - it aint my money.   

Then as the article shows if it doesnt workout they can still open up enough capspace this summer to be a player in FA.   Truthfully no harm no foul. 

GTF, you asked for an example of who we could have spent the money on. Jerami Granit being one. You literally asked me. There are many more examples I could give you too. Sam Presti and OKC now have 17 first rounders in the next 7 drafts because he successfully rented out cap space to teams that didn't have any. 

And it's not 'no harm, no foul'. Absurd. Missed opportunities are never no harm, no foul.

All right, I need a break. Off the board for a while and back to work. These kinds of silly arguments drive me crazy.

Last point, if Wallace would have done this, you and this board would be ripping him to shreads every time Justise air balled a 3, or missed another game. Kleiman gets a pass for some reason. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:00 AM, The J Crew said:

GTF, you asked for an example of who we could have spent the money on. Jerami Granit being one. You literally asked me. There are many more examples I could give you too. Sam Presti and OKC now have 17 first rounders in the next 7 drafts because he successfully rented out cap space to teams that didn't have any. 

And it's not 'no harm, no foul'. Absurd. Missed opportunities are never no harm, no foul.

All right, I need a break. Off the board for a while and back to work. These kinds of silly arguments drive me crazy.

Last point, if Wallace would have done this, you and this board would be ripping him to shreads every time Justise air balled a 3, or missed another game. Kleiman gets a pass for some reason. 

You are both right...It was a gamble (bad one) didn't pan out and most likely won't but we lost nothing but other people's money...not all trades pan out...Kleiman just wanted to show NBA world that he can trade Iggy...it was bad ego trade..but we lost nothing much in a long term...Jerami Grant wanted to be the man + Black GM and Black HC...we have none of that...Denver offered same money as Detroit...but he wanted what he wanted...this trade lost us some opportunities...but nothing much in a long run...next big thing is 3J...if he gets max after next season (this offseason unlikely) and he's glass we are 

p.s. I am happy to pay 4/80 this offseason to Jaren

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