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Who is the third best Grizzlies player?

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4 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

"If" is the key word. It implies potential. Which kind of proves our point, and makes your delusional accusation a bit over the top. Jonas is clearly the better player now, Kyle too, imo.

Should Jaren be 2nd best? Absolutely. My original question is when do we start judging Jaren on performance vs. potential? Hopefully before he's making $30M per year, which is going to happen soon. 

Kyle, who is a 7 year player in his best season thus far at the age of 27 numbers are very similar to a rookie JJJ at the age of 19, come on bro

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3 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

Kyle, who is a 7 year player in his best season thus far at the age of 27 numbers are very similar to a rookie JJJ at the age of 19, come on bro

We aren't talking about 7 years ago. Who "is" playing best right now? Today. 7 years ago Jaren was 14 years old. 

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7 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

We aren't talking about 7 years ago. Who "is" playing best right now? Today. 7 years ago Jaren was 14 years old. 

I'm talking about today, JJJ rookie numbers are close to Andersons numbers this year, in his best year. Not to mention JJJ was 19 as opposed to a 27 year old Anderson

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1 minute ago, toocoolkellz said:

I'm talking about today, JJJ rookie numbers are close to Andersons numbers this year, in his best year. Not to mention JJJ was 19 as opposed to a 27 year old Anderson

Well as of today, Jaren can't play. So if we answer the question literally, of course Kyle is better today. 

Kyle has an 18 PER this year through 25 games, Jaren's were in the 16's his two seasons. To act like it's out of the question that this year's Kyle's numbers are beyond a doubt worse than Jaren's rookie year is just your opinion.

Again, performance vs. potential. 

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20 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Well as of today, Jaren can't play. So if we answer the question literally, of course Kyle is better today. 

Kyle has an 18 PER this year through 25 games, Jaren's were in the 16's his two seasons. To act like it's out of the question that this year's Kyle's numbers are beyond a doubt worse than Jaren's rookie year is just your opinion.

Again, performance vs. potential. 

I didn't say they were beyond worse, but to say that Kyle's numbers are far better or he is clearly the better player is also opinion.  We're comparing performances not potential.  If we're talking potential its not even comparable. Why can't both guys just be good players

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3 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

I didn't say they were beyond worse, but to say that Kyle's numbers are far better or he is clearly the better player is also opinion.  We're comparing performances not potential.  If we're talking potential its not even comparable. Why can't both guys just be good players

I give up. We were just responding to the question asked in this thread? And questioning the GBB assumption. 

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2 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

I give up. We were just responding to the question asked in this thread? And questioning the GBB assumption. 

I get that,  I'd like to revisit this conversation in a year or two

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2 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

I get that,  I'd like to revisit this conversation in a year or two

We all hope you are right, because he's going to be making $30M a year for us.

 

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10 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

We all hope you are right, because he's going to be making $30M a year for us.

 

Now that $30 mill is based on potential not production. I think that's another reason why they're taking their time with him

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1 hour ago, toocoolkellz said:

Now that $30 mill is based on potential not production. I think that's another reason why they're taking their time with him

Yep. The entire rebuild is on the line with Jaren’s next contract. As well as the entire FO.  We need Jaren back at 110% whenever that is.  So, chess moves. Inside baseball. And those two games don’t have shot clocks.

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In dealing with reality, here are our top 3 players.  Rankings can be changed when reality changes, but there is no use ranking on potential

1. Ja

2. JV

3. Kyle

 

 

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Slight hijack but relevant to OP.     

I don't think Big 3 is feasible for small market teams due to how much guys can get paid now.   Especially for us since our top 2 guys are both high lottery picks.   I see us only being able to have 2 Allstar level players with a couple of high level starters. 

So instead of following Big 3 model maybe we need to go the CORE 4 route that GNG (Marc Zbo TA Mike) had and the last championship Pistons (Billups, Rip, Ben, Sheed).  

Looking back at GNG  the roles were more clear cut 

FGA Pecking order was  Zbo > Mike> Marc>Tony

Roles were

  • Zbo - primary scorer
  • Mike - Lead Facilitor /shooter/secondary scorer
  • Marc - secondary Playmaker / defensive anchor/3rd option scorer
  • Tony - defensive stopper

IMHO we have 3 roles filled but not the 4th

  • Jaren - primary scorer/shooter
  • Ja - Lead facilitator/scorer
  • Justise - defensive stopper/ secondary playmaker *
  • ???  This is the role we need filled. 

Kyle or Melton could also be in the Justise role but i imagine this is the vision they have for him. 

We need a 3rd option scorer and i have Jaren pegged as primary because he is more prone to shoot than Ja.   If Ja and Jaren play to their potential then the 3rd option wouldn't have to be some generational talent.  Just would need to do a consistent 15ppg type of player that can create his own shot.   I think when Jaren returns the picture will clearer but without him its harder for some "to see the forest because of the trees". 

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2 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Slight hijack but relevant to OP.     

I don't think Big 3 is feasible for small market teams due to how much guys can get paid now.   Especially for us since our top 2 guys are both high lottery picks.   I see us only being able to have 2 Allstar level players with a couple of high level starters. 

So instead of following Big 3 model maybe we need to go the CORE 4 route that GNG (Marc Zbo TA Mike) had and the last championship Pistons (Billups, Rip, Ben, Sheed).  

Looking back at GNG  the roles were more clear cut 

FGA Pecking order was  Zbo > Mike> Marc>Tony

Roles were

  • Zbo - primary scorer
  • Mike - Lead Facilitor /shooter/secondary scorer
  • Marc - secondary Playmaker / defensive anchor/3rd option scorer
  • Tony - defensive stopper

IMHO we have 3 roles filled but not the 4th

  • Jaren - primary scorer/shooter
  • Ja - Lead facilitator/scorer
  • Justise - defensive stopper/ secondary playmaker *
  • ???  This is the role we need filled. 

Kyle or Melton could also be in the Justise role but i imagine this is the vision they have for him. 

We need a 3rd option scorer and i have Jaren pegged as primary because he is more prone to shoot than Ja.   If Ja and Jaren play to their potential then the 3rd option wouldn't have to be some generational talent.  Just would need to do a consistent 15ppg type of player that can create his own shot.   I think when Jaren returns the picture will clearer but without him its harder for some "to see the forest because of the trees". 

GTF with all do respect...Jaren hasnt played in months and we don't know if he will be an all star (top 5 PF) in the west, or a solid player with flashes of elite play (Outside of 10+ best PF's in the west)  Ja is penciled in as our franchise player, but he has lots of development to be considered top 7 or 8 in the west.  You lose some creds when you keep pushing JW as part of our core, when he has played two underwhelming games and he might be a locked down defender, but not sure that gets him into our core 5.  My profile for that type of player is Anunoby, 14 & 6, shoots nearing 40% on 3 ball, and really smart BBIQ.

I kinda thought by year 2 of rebuild, some would say were in year 3...that we would have some jello by now on our core, but we appear to take a half a step back every time we take a full step forward....were 13 & 14, many of us would take that, but this record is not indicative of where we are in our rebuild progression, i understand its not a straight line...we need a good run of winning 5 of 7 games to re-establish some good behavors and faith.

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Getting Jaren back is the key. He's probably our best natural scorer, probably our best shooter, and certainly our best rim protector. It can't be understated how much spacing he can provide for guys like Ja, Justise, JV, and Brandon. Both the offense and the defense will get much better when he returns in theory. 

As weird as it seems, we're clearly missing Dillon's scoring right now. If he can be efficient in his role, that makes us far more deadly. He hasn't been this year, but he's really the only other player that can create his own shot on this team that is playing right now. Bane and Grayson really can't, Melton might be slightly better, but not by much. Kyle has done a fair amount this year, but I'm not sure if that is fully sustainable. 

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4 minutes ago, Lugan Village said:

GTF with all do respect...Jaren hasnt played in months and we don't know if he will be an all star (top 5 PF) in the west, or a solid player with flashes of elite play (Outside of 10+ best PF's in the west)  Ja is penciled in as our franchise player, but he has lots of development to be considered top 7 or 8 in the west.  You lose some creds when you keep pushing JW as part of our core, when he has played two underwhelming games and he might be a locked down defender, but not sure that gets him into our core 5.  My profile for that type of player is Anunoby, 14 & 6, shoots nearing 40% on 3 ball, and really smart BBIQ.

I kinda thought by year 2 of rebuild, some would say were in year 3...that we would have some jello by now on our core, but we appear to take a half a step back every time we take a full step forward....were 13 & 14, many of us would take that, but this record is not indicative of where we are in our rebuild progression, i understand its not a straight line...we need a good run of winning 5 of 7 games to re-establish some good behavors and faith.

Did you read this part of my post.

5 minutes ago, Lugan Village said:

Kyle or Melton could also be in the Justise role but i imagine this is the vision they have for him. 

I was talking about the FO vision for the team.  Obviously Jaren isn't even healthy so i am discussing the immediate future.   I am projecting who will fit the roles.   Tony wasn't an AllStar for the Grizz Core4 but he was a glue guy and defensive ace.   Looking at Justise's career that is not a difficult role for him to play.   Once again i don't think some of ya'll truly understand how development and roles work. 

We are NOT supposed to be a playoff team this year.   Why are folks judging everything based on that?

This is another development evaluation year.  Its kinda hard for our core to be gelling when it hasn't been healthy or even fully identified yet.   So far all we know is Ja and Jaren everyone else still trying to determine their spot. 

What we need is a consistent rotation so guys to start understanding their roles.   Constantly having guys playing in different lineups effects player production - especially young ones.   You have to admit that the circus lineups hurts the potential to develop chemistry. 

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48 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Did you read this part of my post.

I was talking about the FO vision for the team.  Obviously Jaren isn't even healthy so i am discussing the immediate future.   I am projecting who will fit the roles.   Tony wasn't an AllStar for the Grizz Core4 but he was a glue guy and defensive ace.   Looking at Justise's career that is not a difficult role for him to play.   Once again i don't think some of ya'll truly understand how development and roles work. 

We are NOT supposed to be a playoff team this year.   Why are folks judging everything based on that?

This is another development evaluation year.  Its kinda hard for our core to be gelling when it hasn't been healthy or even fully identified yet.   So far all we know is Ja and Jaren everyone else still trying to determine their spot. 

What we need is a consistent rotation so guys to start understanding their roles.   Constantly having guys playing in different lineups effects player production - especially young ones.   You have to admit that the circus lineups hurts the potential to develop chemistry. 

OK.  I agree with your point, like need a consistent rotation, circus like environment.  I hate the term rebuild, because some teams can never shed that culture and association with mediocrity.  It just continues.  If Ja and Jaren achieve FO vision, we need to make the playoffs and go from there.  The players realize the business part more now then before, and if the franchise don't make it happen, they will go elsewhere...that is a given.  Evaluation for a year???  Hell no....coaches and GM know in less than a couple of years what they have in a player.  Patience with owners is getting shorter and shorter, there is no 7 year rebuilds....3 to 5 sounds about right.  Were in year 2 or 3?

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1 hour ago, Lugan Village said:

OK.  I agree with your point, like need a consistent rotation, circus like environment.  I hate the term rebuild, because some teams can never shed that culture and association with mediocrity.  It just continues.  If Ja and Jaren achieve FO vision, we need to make the playoffs and go from there.  The players realize the business part more now then before, and if the franchise don't make it happen, they will go elsewhere...that is a given.  Evaluation for a year???  Hell no....coaches and GM know in less than a couple of years what they have in a player.  Patience with owners is getting shorter and shorter, there is no 7 year rebuilds....3 to 5 sounds about right.  Were in year 2 or 3?

I don't enjoy "rebuilding" either most fans do not.  Truth is you cannot build anything if there isn't a foundation first.    You cannot build a team with just one foundation either it has to be at least two.   There are plenty of teams with One piece and we see how that is going (CHI, MIN, ORL, NYK, etc...).   

We are lucky that our FO has identified quickly that we have two foundation pieces.  If you are a Grizz fan you should be praying that Jaren is actually a foundation piece.  Otherwise we will be on this treadmill for a while. 

Unfortunately, the injuries to Jaren and Justise have stagnated the rebuild process.  But i feel that FO still wants a lotto pick to add another potential Foundation Piece so they don't care.    That lotto pick could be insurance for if Ja or Jaren don't pan out.   Like OKC had KD Russ and Harden to gamble with.   There is no Harden on this roster but there may be an Ibaka.  

I just wish that Taylor was quicker to identify guys that compliment Ja and maximize their time together.   Seems like he forgets that major factor when reviewing his spreadsheets.  Because every other dude not named Ja and Jaren are basically auditioning for a supporting role in their movie.   Gotta make sure there is some on screen chemistry!  Otherwise the movie will fail!

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1 hour ago, Lugan Village said:

OK.  I agree with your point, like need a consistent rotation, circus like environment.  I hate the term rebuild, because some teams can never shed that culture and association with mediocrity.  It just continues.  If Ja and Jaren achieve FO vision, we need to make the playoffs and go from there.  The players realize the business part more now then before, and if the franchise don't make it happen, they will go elsewhere...that is a given.  Evaluation for a year???  Hell no....coaches and GM know in less than a couple of years what they have in a player.  Patience with owners is getting shorter and shorter, there is no 7 year rebuilds....3 to 5 sounds about right.  Were in year 2 or 3?

But only the first of a remotely healthy team. Until Jaren comes back and everybody is in game shape is when we will get a more complete picture of what we have

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18 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I don't enjoy "rebuilding" either most fans do not.  Truth is you cannot build anything if there isn't a foundation first.    You cannot build a team with just one foundation either it has to be at least two.   There are plenty of teams with One piece and we see how that is going (CHI, MIN, ORL, NYK, etc...).   

We are lucky that our FO has identified quickly that we have two foundation pieces.  If you are a Grizz fan you should be praying that Jaren is actually a foundation piece.  Otherwise we will be on this treadmill for a while. 

Unfortunately, the injuries to Jaren and Justise have stagnated the rebuild process.  But i feel that FO still wants a lotto pick to add another potential Foundation Piece so they don't care.    That lotto pick could be insurance for if Ja or Jaren don't pan out.   Like OKC had KD Russ and Harden to gamble with.   There is no Harden on this roster but there may be an Ibaka.  

I just wish that Taylor was quicker to identify guys that compliment Ja and maximize their time together.   Seems like he forgets that major factor when reviewing his spreadsheets.  Because every other dude not named Ja and Jaren are basically auditioning for a supporting role in their movie.   Gotta make sure there is some on screen chemistry!  Otherwise the movie will fail!

I could say you are overdue to start criticizing the coach but that is beating a dead horse.

I will say that the worst place a team can be is stuck in the middle. Too good to get a transformational player in the draft but not good enough to compete. The Grizzlies are getting dangerously close to being in this situation. I hate seeing a team lose but if it serves the franchise better to develop their border line prospects now at the expense of winning some games and get a better talent in the draft that isn't a terrible outcome. 

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1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

I could say you are overdue to start criticizing the coach but that is beating a dead horse.

I will say that the worst place a team can be is stuck in the middle. Too good to get a transformational player in the draft but not good enough to compete. The Grizzlies are getting dangerously close to being in this situation. I hate seeing a team lose but if it serves the franchise better to develop their border line prospects now at the expense of winning some games and get a better talent in the draft that isn't a terrible outcome. 

Yes. No offense to gng and the Hubie era but I have had enough of teams that used chemistry to play "over their heads" but didn't have what it took talent wise to finish the deal against heavyweights. I want to go big this time with 3 really good top end players surrounded by role players. Unfortunately, we appear to be back on the over their heads path again. 

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I been sayin it and will keep repeating it...

This is Ja, Jaren and Jonas's team..   All that past Brandon Clarke baloney was just that...

 Now some of u want to annoint Kyle Anderson??  Really??

There isnt an Nba analyst or media expert that would agree...  How bout u look up the top 100 players or top 25 players at their positions....  Then tell me where u find Kyle freakin Anderson.. 

You cant think u know basketball spewin this mindless homerism and scrub lovin...

 

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22 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Yes. No offense to gng and the Hubie era but I have had enough of teams that used chemistry to play "over their heads" but didn't have what it took talent wise to finish the deal against heavyweights. I want to go big this time with 3 really good top end players surrounded by role players. Unfortunately, we appear to be back on the over their heads path again. 

Actually that is the side effect of already having your talented foundational pieces and some good role players in place.  It is darn near unavoidable that you will be too good too early.  We are missing the 3rd piece not the first;so they will keep us from being a lowly lottery team.    This is probably why most teams acquire their 3rd player via trade or FA.   They usually become too good to tank completely to depend on the draft.   

If they do get a 3rd piece via the draft its usually a guy that was not Top of the lottery or even in the lottery  (Draymond!).    So If we aren't in the lottery should we purposely target a guy thats a wing creator instead of just BPA?  

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38 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Yes. No offense to gng and the Hubie era but I have had enough of teams that used chemistry to play "over their heads" but didn't have what it took talent wise to finish the deal against heavyweights. I want to go big this time with 3 really good top end players surrounded by role players. Unfortunately, we appear to be back on the over their heads path again. 

Thank you.. 

And if you go back even to last few years of Conley and Gasol, the Grizz would start like gangbusters the first month of the season then get mentioned nationally and get smoked game after game...

Because the Grizz always have had great bigs, great point guard play and compliment it with atrocious, one dimensional, unathletic, short wing span wings...

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24 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Yes. No offense to gng and the Hubie era but I have had enough of teams that used chemistry to play "over their heads" but didn't have what it took talent wise to finish the deal against heavyweights. I want to go big this time with 3 really good top end players surrounded by role players. Unfortunately, we appear to be back on the over their heads path again. 

Well I wouldn't hold your breath on creating some sort of obvious superstar big 3. The way the league is today that's borderline impossible to do without free agency and I somehow doubt one or two top 10 players will suddenly decide that Memphis is the place to go win championships and market themselves. It's not any easier to do through the draft, as you can see with the many constantly bad teams who are always in the lottery (Minnesota, Sacramento, Detroit, Orlando, New York, etc.)

The closest thing recently to a team that did through the draft was GSW before signing Durant, and that was still with just Curry as the only top-tier star, Klay as a 2nd tier star, and Green as a glue guy, and they probably lose in the Finals twice in a row if Love and Irving weren't injured for Cleveland that first year. 

Memphis just needs to build a good team and hope they can have things come together at the right time. I don't see Memphis as being in any kind of bad situation here. They're a deep young team that needs to grow. Their best chance to improve also likely lies in cultivating the young talent and trading smartly to improve. That's pretty much what Toronto did over the years to eventually land Kawhi and win that one-off championship.

 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Actually that is the side effect of already having your talented foundational pieces and some good role players in place.  It is darn near unavoidable that you will be too good too early.  We are missing the 3rd piece not the first;so they will keep us from being a lowly lottery team.    This is probably why most teams acquire their 3rd player via trade or FA.   They usually become too good to tank completely to depend on the draft.   

If they do get a 3rd piece via the draft its usually a guy that was not Top of the lottery or even in the lottery  (Draymond!).    So If we aren't in the lottery should we purposely target a guy thats a wing creator instead of just BPA?  

 

1 hour ago, Everett said:

Well I wouldn't hold your breath on creating some sort of obvious superstar big 3. The way the league is today that's borderline impossible to do without free agency and I somehow doubt one or two top 10 players will suddenly decide that Memphis is the place to go win championships and market themselves. It's not any easier to do through the draft, as you can see with the many constantly bad teams who are always in the lottery (Minnesota, Sacramento, Detroit, Orlando, New York, etc.)

The closest thing recently to a team that did through the draft was GSW before signing Durant, and that was still with just Curry as the only top-tier star, Klay as a 2nd tier star, and Green as a glue guy, and they probably lose in the Finals twice in a row if Love and Irving weren't injured for Cleveland that first year. 

Memphis just needs to build a good team and hope they can have things come together at the right time. I don't see Memphis as being in any kind of bad situation here. They're a deep young team that needs to grow. Their best chance to improve also likely lies in cultivating the young talent and trading smartly to improve. That's pretty much what Toronto did over the years to eventually land Kawhi and win that one-off championship.

 

First off, I keep saying this, but the drafts are getting better and better and deeper and deeper and better for the Grizzlies they are loaded with wings. So what has happened in the past few years with drafts isn't a great indicator of what is possible right now.  The AAU, high school, college development of position less basketball is now in sync with the NBA and the draft is becoming a stronger source of acquiring talent than ever.

On top of this, the Grizzlies have actually lucked out and found an inside out big now and a pure pg which most teams don't get or struggle to get. The wings which is now becoming available in drafts is all that is needed. 

Obviously the timing has to be right and the right players have to be available so it's tricky, but I still felt that we could get it. I'm not expecting a monster player or a surefired Allstar like Cade. Guys found outside the top 5 of the lottery include Steph, Klay, DeRozan, Booker, George, Kawhi, Herro, SGA, Porter, Greek Freak, Butler, Lavert, Lavine.

 GSW also had Barnes as part of their original big 3 scorers, all drafted along with Draymond. It won a title and was 3 points away from a repeat if you guy don't remember but they found something better in KD.  I see Bridges for Phoenix being an 18-20 PPG guy one day to go with Booker and Ayton.  Milwaukee had Greek, Middleton, Brogdon but mistakenly chose Bledsoe over Brogdon. 

I am not looking for a monster HOF big 3 or anything. I want a big 3 that "can" contend. Hanging below. 500 is cool but there are ways to make your own luck and sometimes you do what you gotta do.  Load management for Ja.  Play even more young guys bigger minutes. Is JV helping you win a few extra games worth it? Do we really need him going forward?  Let Melton "develop" as the backup pg.  Do what you gotta do to get to the top 10 this year and sell it as "development."  They aren't a serious playoff team right now and you got a draft literally loaded with your weakest area. What else is there to say? 

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