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chipc33

Memphis Grizzlies @ Dallas Mavericks 2/22/21

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11 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Sooo do you also agree that the role you want for the SF is actually already being filled by SG?    So in addition to Justise being an elite defender he also is a solid ballhandler and passer.   Which is why Spo had him playing PG before his last injury.   

 

This Justise playing PG thing is so overblown, imo, it was for half a season at best in the '18-'19 season.

Dragic got hurt in December, his backup sucked, the Heat partially went to a point forward offense sometimes led by Justise until Dragic got back. They had a losing record and missed the playoffs. Yes, Justise had his best year that year, but when is he going to have the ball in his hands on this Grizz team like he did that half season in Miami? 

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3 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Sooo do you also agree that the role you want for the SF is actually already being filled by SG?    So in addition to Justise being an elite defender he also is a solid ballhandler and passer.   Which is why Spo had him playing PG before his last injury.   

Ja - Bane - Justise - Jaren - Jonas is a very balanced lineup when it comes to complimentary skillsets.    Bane and Jaren space the floor;  Justise and Jaren defensive anchors;  Ja primary playmaker and Justise secondary.   Ja Jaren and Justise can create their own shots.    

Look i am not gonna defend Justise chucking up shots (i do believe Taylor wants him to do that - see Exhibit A Dillon Brooks).   However, i will go to bat for him when it comes to his defense, rebounding, and playmaking potential. 

Justise became obsolete when Kyle learned how to shoot. 

If everyone is healthy, our best unit is theoretically Ja at 1, Jaren at 5 and Kyle at 4. I don't want a Justise/Kyle tandem and we don't need it. We don't need a 2ndary ball handler, we need a 2ndary bucket getter 

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5 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

At least Bane had a good game.   Hopefully that will make it harder for Taylor to take him out of rotation once Dillon is healthy. 

The BaneTrain is back on the tracks.

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Pick one guy that will be our 6th man...Clarke or Winslow?  Both have enough deficiencies or incomplete in their game  or in physical attributes.

I would give the minutes to Clarke...

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1 minute ago, The J Crew said:

This Justise playing PG thing is so overblown, it was for half a season at best in the '18-'19 season.

Dragic got hurt in December, his backup sucked, the Heat partially went to a point forward offense sometimes led by Justise until Dragic got back. They had a losing record and missed the playoffs. Yes, Justise had his best year that year, but when is he going to have the ball in his hands on this Grizz team like he did that half season in Miami? 

But it still proved that he can run an offense, correct.    Justise had a great game against us when he was the point and defended Ja.  So like i said he can run the point - nobody is saying he is LeBron.   That jus shows that he is capable of being the SECONDARY ballhandler/playmaker.   

Taylor already said he wants to put the ball in Justise hands; hence the definition of secondary ballhandler.   

I mean if you gonna judge Justise PG stint by Heat not making playoffs then we may as well give up on Ja too.   Besides the Justise PG thing showed just how versatile he is which is one of the reasons FO acquired him.   

I am not trying to dispute why you dislike him.  I am just clarifying why the FO made the gamble.  

 

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2 minutes ago, GameOn said:

Man, our 3 point shooting has fallen off a cliff. 6-31 (19.4 %) tonight.

 

2 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Yikes. Jaren, please get healthy.

 

 

Right now it is all of this.  At some point, making baskets matters.

I don't know how much of this is just luck, inconsistency with rotation and lack of rhythm, but our "best" lineup doesn't matter if the guys in the game can't take a basket.

 

People can complain about Winslow's shooting 1-5 from 3, but Melton was 1-6, and Morant, Allen, JV, X and Tyus combined for an 0-12.  Winslow's going to improve but this team needs some practices where there is some consistency.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

But it still proved that he can run an offense, correct.    Justise had a great game against us when he was the point and defended Ja.  So like i said he can run the point - nobody is saying he is LeBron.   That jus shows that he is capable of being the SECONDARY ballhandler/playmaker.   

Taylor already said he wants to put the ball in Justise hands; hence the definition of secondary ballhandler.   

I mean if you gonna judge Justise PG stint by Heat not making playoffs then we may as well give up on Ja too.   Besides the Justise PG thing showed just how versatile he is which is one of the reasons FO acquired him.   

I am not trying to dispute why you dislike him.  I am just clarifying why the FO made the gamble.  

 

I don't dislike Justise. I hope he becomes a star with us. He's just not what we needed, imo. I think this 2ndary ballhandler stuff is mostly BS.  Klay Thompson with the Dubs sometimes dribbled less than 10 times a game.

Our 2, 3 and 4s around Ja need to be shooters. Real shooters. Bane was a good pick. Grayson and Kyle have improved. But besides Jaren, do we really have a knockdown shooter? 

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2 minutes ago, Lugan Village said:

Pick one guy that will be our 6th man...Clarke or Winslow?  Both have enough deficiencies or incomplete in their game  or in physical attributes.

I would give the minutes to Clarke...

BC has earned the minutes.

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2 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

I don't dislike Justise. I hope he becomes a star with us. He's just not what we needed, imo. I think this 2ndary ballhandler stuff is mostly BS.  Our 2, 3 and 4s around Ja need to be shooters. Real shooters. Bane was a good pick. Grayson and Kyle have improved. But besides Jaren, do we really have a knockdown shooter? 

I don't understand what's wrong with Kyle as secondary ball handler.  Played PG in college, better assist to turnover ratio.

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4 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

I don't dislike Justise. I hope he becomes a star with us. He's just not what we needed, imo. I think this 2ndary ballhandler stuff is mostly BS.  Our 2, 3 and 4s around Ja need to be shooters. Real shooters. Bane was a good pick. Grayson and Kyle have improved. But besides Jaren, do we really have a knockdown shooter? 

Good Dillon on a good night. But then there are the bad Dillon nights ...

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Just now, smit-tay griz said:

I don't understand what's wrong with Kyle as secondary ball handler.  Played PG in college, better assist to turnover ratio.

Because of the numbers crunch, I believe a 2nd unit (with Ja off floor) with KA, Melton, and Winslow would allow the better offensive talent to play and keep Tyus on the bench next to Dieng and Konchar. Unfortunately with tonight's game, Tyus played better, and Melton did not.  Winslow is going to play better and is going to have a big role on this team.

However, I don't think that will happen, and we are soon going to see a 12 man team rotation when Brooks and JJJ return.

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6 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

I don't dislike Justise. I hope he becomes a star with us. He's just not what we needed, imo. I think this 2ndary ballhandler stuff is mostly BS.  Our 2, 3 and 4s around Ja need to be shooters. Real shooters. Bane was a good pick. Grayson and Kyle have improved. But besides Jaren, do we really have a knockdown shooter? 

bruh what team has 3 deadeye shooters in the starting lineup?   Only team i can think of was the Durant Warriors.   

We will have 2 at the most (Jaren and Grayson or Bane) and that is really all you need.  Bane is knockdown 3pt shooter and should be developed that way.     I am not saying Justise doesn't need to improve as a shooter but having Jaren alleviates alot of that.    Ideally most of the scoring should be from Ja SG Jaren then Jonas - Justise should be 5th in pecking order. 

Secondary Ballhander alleviates some of the pressure off of Ja.  Or have you not noticed how teams have been trapping the hell outta him and getting the ball out of his hands.   Most good teams have secondary or multiple ballhandlers.     

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1 minute ago, Grizzled Vet said:

Because of the numbers crunch, I believe a 2nd unit (with Ja off floor) with KA, Melton, and Winslow would allow the better offensive talent to play and keep Tyus on the bench next to Dieng and Konchar. Unfortunately with tonight's game, Tyus played better, and Melton did not.  Winslow is going to play better and is going to have a big role on this team.

However, I don't think that will happen, and we are soon going to see a 12 man team rotation when Brooks and JJJ return.

I don't see them sitting Tyus.  I hope Winslow's game does come around, and I don't see both Kyle and Justise in the second unit.  One of those two will likely start when they get the rotations set.

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1 minute ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

bruh what team has 3 deadeye shooters in the starting lineup?   Only team i can think of was the Durant Warriors.   

We will have 2 at the most (Jaren and Grayson or Bane) and that is really all you need.  Bane is knockdown 3pt shooter and should be developed that way.     I am not saying Justise doesn't need to improve as a shooter but having Jaren alleviates alot of that.    Ideally most of the scoring should be from Ja SG Jaren then Jonas - Justise should be 5th in pecking order. 

Secondary Ballhander alleviates some of the pressure off of Ja.  Or have you not noticed how teams have been trapping the hell outta him and getting the ball out of his hands.   Most good teams have secondary or multiple ballhandlers.     

We just disagree. Which is ok.  Will say in all the time I have watched teams get put together, don't think I've ever heard that what a team really needs to go to the next level is more secondary ballhandling. 

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We need a trade to bring in a very good SG or SF, and not take up Winslow's option giving us 25mil to spend (or absorb contracts) in FA, plus pay our draft pick in 2021 (unless we trade that to get that very good SG/SF)

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

We have been looking for a secondary ballhandler since Conley.   They have always said that.   Not sure where you have been.  Taylor said he wants Ja to play off ball in order to take advantage of his cutting ability.   That's why he plays Tyus beside him sometimes.      Tyus is too small and Grayson Melton nor Dillon were good enough passers.   Once again none of this is a mystery if you watched the games last season. 

TJ is a moron in that regard or he's lying because our lineups with Ja and Tyus are awful this year.

Take advantage of his cutting? GTFO. Ja is supposed to be our star, you don't utilize your creating penetrating PG by playing him off the ball. 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

  That role you describe doesn't have to be at the 3 - Grayson and Bane already fill that role.    Last year they tried Marko there early on.   Once again if you look at last years roster then Justise gamble makes sense.   

Get off this hill, I don't know why you want to die on it.

 

We got taken on the trade, and taken bad. They got the better players, better contracts, dumped 2 bad contracts for them, and didn't give up even a 2nd. It's honestly kind of amazing.

Heat get 3 rotation players on expiring contracts (foolishly re-signed iggy)

Dumped 2 bad contracts (Waiters and Winslow, who no matter how much you like him is overpaid)

and then we managed to take ANOTHER horrible contract in Dieng.

Lord have mercy we took back 43 million of worthless contracts to give Miami 3 veteran role players on expiring contracts.

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47 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Sooo do you also agree that the role you want for the SF is actually already being filled by SG?    So in addition to Justise being an elite defender he also is a solid ballhandler and passer.   Which is why Spo had him playing PG before his last injury.   

Ja - Bane - Justise - Jaren - Jonas is a very balanced lineup when it comes to complimentary skillsets.    Bane and Jaren space the floor;  Justise and Jaren defensive anchors;  Ja primary playmaker and Justise secondary.   Ja Jaren and Justise can create their own shots.    

Look i am not gonna defend Justise chucking up shots (i do believe Taylor wants him to do that - see Exhibit A Dillon Brooks).   However, i will go to bat for him when it comes to his defense, rebounding, and playmaking potential. 

The problem is, this isnt pitchers in baseball where you can have one guy to get lefties, one guy with hard stuff, and one guy with breaking stuff. You're generally only as good as your weakest link on both sides of the ball. So even with justise out there teams will just seek out putting Ja and JV in a pick and roll or pick justise off the player they want. And you still have justise getting the TA treatment.

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21 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

We just disagree. Which is ok.  Will say in all the time I have watched teams get put together, don't think I've ever heard that what a team really needs to go to the next level is more secondary ballhandling. 

Agree. It's the freaking NBA. All of the wings and guards can dribble the ball to the hole without it going off their foot. And almost no teams have 2 players with Kyrie-like handles on floor at same time.

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2 minutes ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

The problem is, this isnt pitchers in baseball where you can have one guy to get lefties, one guy with hard stuff, and one guy with breaking stuff. You're generally only as good as your weakest link on both sides of the ball. So even with justise out there teams will just seek out putting Ja and JV in a pick and roll or pick justise off the player they want. And you still have justise getting the TA treatment.

The problem is some fans believe that starting 5 should be filled by AllStars and Hall Of Famers.   I guess some of ya'll don't understand that it is incredibly difficult to fill a starting lineup with 4 deadeye shooters and 5 two way players that are all dynamic scorers.    This isn't the Olympics dream team.   Pretty much every team has starting lineups with players that have exploitable weaknesses.   

Ja and JV both get exploited on defense.  Ja gets the TA treatment too.   So are they the weakest links? 

The idea is to have role players that cover for the stars areas of weakness.   Ja is a poor outside shooter (Bane or Grayson) and  poor defender (Dillon or Justise).     Jaren is a poor rebounder (Jonas or Tillman).   That is the purpose of your ROLE players.     

I agree we still need an additional dynamic scorer on the wing but that aint/shouldn't be Justise role.   Just like that was never Jae or Kyles role either.   

 

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39 minutes ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

Agree. It's the freaking NBA. All of the wings and guards can dribble the ball to the hole without it going off their foot. And almost no teams have 2 players with Kyrie-like handles on floor at same time.

Uhmm what NBA have you been watching.  It's pretty common for the PO teams to have multiple ballhandlers on the court.

Brooklyn - Kyrie, Harden Durant 

Clippers - Kawhi and George

Warriors - Curry Draymond  Durant

Lakers - Lebron and whoever is PG

Heat - Lebron and Wade

Bulls - Jordan and Pippen

Jazz - Donovan and Conley

Boston - Tatum, Smart and Kemba

Por - Dame and CJ

Mavs - Luka and PG

Bucks - Giannis, Middleton, and whoever is PG

Taylor said specifically he wants to have multiple playmakers and ballhandlers on the court.    That's why i like Kyle on the floor with Ja at PF and prefer him starting over BC.  

Some of us old heads remember when Lionel was trying to make Rudy into a playmaker.   And he kept dribbling the ball off of his foot. 

 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

The problem is some fans believe that starting 5 should be filled by AllStars and Hall Of Famers.   I guess some of ya'll don't understand that it is incredibly difficult to fill a starting lineup with 4 deadeye shooters and 5 two way players that are all dynamic scorers.    This isn't the Olympics dream team.   Pretty much every team has starting lineups with players that have exploitable weaknesses.   

Ja and JV both get exploited on defense.  Ja gets the TA treatment too.   So are they the weakest links? 

The idea is to have role players that cover for the stars areas of weakness.   Ja is a poor outside shooter (Bane or Grayson) and  poor defender (Dillon or Justise).     Jaren is a poor rebounder (Jonas or Tillman).   That is the purpose of your ROLE players.     

I agree we still need an additional dynamic scorer on the wing but that aint/shouldn't be Justise role.   Just like that was never Jae or Kyles role either.   

 

The problem is you trying to fill the gaps in with the current players on the roster but they aren’t the solution. The need two new wings like we’ve said before Justise isn’t a solution for anything until he proves he can be relied upon. It’s time for the Grizz to get some vets to fill some of the more important roles.

We have too many young guys jumping in and out of lineups based on who’s playing good or who’s available. There’s no consistency when you have young guys replacing young guys they will always be up and down that’s why we need some vets to stabilize things.

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6 hours ago, Ndq0327 said:

The problem is you trying to fill the gaps in with the current players on the roster but they aren’t the solution. The need two new wings like we’ve said before Justise isn’t a solution for anything until he proves he can be relied upon. It’s time for the Grizz to get some vets to fill some of the more important roles.

We have too many young guys jumping in and out of lineups based on who’s playing good or who’s available. There’s no consistency when you have young guys replacing young guys they will always be up and down that’s why we need some vets to stabilize things.

We still haven't seen the full roster.  I think everybody agrees we still need another dynamic scorer on the wing?  When did i ever say we already have the solution on the roster? 

I disagree that Justise isn't a solution for anything.  Apparently some of ya'll really really devalue perimeter defense and having someone that can guard big athletic wings.   For some odd reason yall thought Justise was supposed to be the dynamic scorer and are killing him after TWO FREAKING GAMES.  Shame on you if you thought Winslow was supposed to be the dynamic scorer.   Winslow is supposed to replace Dillon's role as the "Primary Wing Defender".   Dillon is the one that needs to replaced as the dynamic scorer.  To be fair he may actually improve with less responsibility on defense.  

Winslow Jonas Tyus and Kyle are veterans.   When did you ever see me say don't pursue Lavine, Beal, or Hield because we have Winslow??  I only said we shouldn't give up everything for those dudes.  

I guess maybe i am the only one that sees Ja is terrible on defense and our perimeter defense needs to be better.  

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