toocoolkellz

Moving the needle

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I see a lot of posters saying that player A, doesn't move the needle etc... but realistically who's a player that we bring in that instantly moves the needle? Kelly Oubre, Zach Lavine, Victor O, and Evan are the players I've seen thrown around here more often than any others. Of those I do have my preferences but I want to hear from the "don't move the needle," crowd who instantly moves the needle and at the same time are realistically obtainable? Imho I don't think we will be able to sign a "move the needle," guy. This free agency is supposed to be stacked, but no freaking way we even mention any of the top free agents. I see us signing someone on those 4 level in free agency and hopefully picking up our third star in the draft. With that being said,  "move the needle crowd," who can we sign realistically that will satisfy you guys?

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I think you're right there isn't a realistic trade. We need guys to develop and take a leap or to draft well and hold onto the assets until the next all star decides he wants out of wherever they play. I don't think the team is currently good enough to spend assets on guys that are third or fourth options on good teams, if Ja and JJJ are playing like all stars next year then it's a different conversation.

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There is no one.  We aren't ready now because our stars (JJJ/Ja) aren't on the level now of the Allstars on most of the playoff teams. Yes even Ja because that lack of a jumper and small frame becomes more of a problem in a concentrated playoff series.   And we know JJJs flaws. 

Also, a third star from the 2021 draft would change the outlook a lot.  Example, Jokic/Murray were an exciting duo but people always said, meh, to their title hopes.  See how the excitement about Denver goes to another level once you put MPJ in the mix? 

Once those guys become true stars... then your support players like your Oubres and your Hields become guys that can make a difference versus Brooks, Winslow, etc.  But you don't put the cart before the horse and start spending picks on guys that won't get you ahead of the heavyweight teams. That's why we say doesn't move the needle. 

Also, your retained pick value hasn't been established. That's another reason mostly established vet playoff teams move picks....because they feel good about where they will land.  And our GM picked up the Utah/GSW picks as a gamble that those teams could eventually stumble... so why would they cash their chips in now just to win a few extra games? 

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1 hour ago, Dwash said:

There is no one.  We aren't ready now because our stars (JJJ/Ja) aren't on the level now of the Allstars on most of the playoff teams. Yes even Ja because that lack of a jumper and small frame becomes more of a problem in a concentrated playoff series.   And we know JJJs flaws. 

Also, a third star from the 2021 draft would change the outlook a lot.  Example, Jokic/Murray were an exciting duo but people always said, meh, to their title hopes.  See how the excitement about Denver goes to another level once you put MPJ in the mix? 

Once those guys become true stars... then your support players like your Oubres and your Hields become guys that can make a difference versus Brooks, Winslow, etc.  But you don't put the cart before the horse and start spending picks on guys that won't get you ahead of the heavyweight teams. That's why we say doesn't move the needle. 

Also, your retained pick value hasn't been established. That's another reason mostly established vet playoff teams move picks....because they feel good about where they will land.  And our GM picked up the Utah/GSW picks as a gamble that those teams could eventually stumble... so why would they cash their chips in now just to win a few extra games? 

I'm not referring to moving nay picks. Kelly, Victor and Evan will all be free agents next year when we have the funds to make some moves without moving assets.  My question revolves around the idea of those guys in as free agents.  Zach is the only one that would have to be traded for and  truthfully I'd consider doing it dependent on how next years draft goes. 

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Well, it depends on what you mean by moving the needle Moving the needle where? The playoffs? There's no 1 player who we can obtain that can do that. Playoff contenders? There's definitely is not 1 player that we can obtain that can do that. Picking up 3-5 more wins but still missing the playoffs? There may be a handful of guys but most of these moves (depending on who we give up) would only make us marginally better but why would we want to do that? That's why I have always been Team Stand Pat. It makes no sense to make moves for people who will only make you marginally better at this point and may even reduce your chances at getting a top 3 pick in the draft.

I know people are tired of losing and want to win now but realistically, there is no 1 move that would move the needle for us. We are in a great position to have a young team that will compete every night (but probably lose a lot of games). They learn and then we get a top 5 pick in the 2021 draft to get another star. If we're really bold, we may package one of our extra future 1st round picks to try and move up and get 2 top 10 picks. I'm extra stoked about the summer of 2021. This season is a throw away season to me. Heck, Justise and JJJ won't even start the season and JJJ may be out for an extended period of time. Why rush it. No need to give up current assets or future assets and take on long term salary just to win 3 more games while compromising our draft position next year. Makes no sense. It's very shortsighted, that's some Chris Wallace type bs.

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23 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

Well, it depends on what you mean by moving the needle Moving the needle where? The playoffs? There's no 1 player who we can obtain that can do that. Playoff contenders? There's definitely is not 1 player that we can obtain that can do that. Picking up 3-5 more wins but still missing the playoffs? There may be a handful of guys but most of these moves (depending on who we give up) would only make us marginally better but why would we want to do that? That's why I have always been Team Stand Pat. It makes no sense to make moves for people who will only make you marginally better at this point and may even reduce your chances at getting a top 3 pick in the draft.

I know people are tired of losing and want to win now but realistically, there is no 1 move that would move the needle for us. We are in a great position to have a young team that will compete every night (but probably lose a lot of games). They learn and then we get a top 5 pick in the 2021 draft to get another star. If we're really bold, we may package one of our extra future 1st round picks to try and move up and get 2 top 10 picks. I'm extra stoked about the summer of 2021. This season is a throw away season to me. Heck, Justise and JJJ won't even start the season and JJJ may be out for an extended period of time. Why rush it. No need to give up current assets or future assets and take on long term salary just to win 3 more games while compromising our draft position next year. Makes no sense. It's very shortsighted, that's some Chris Wallace type bs.

I agree, but I'm referring to free agency not moving picks. I probably would move a pick to get Lavine but not right now, I would do it during the off-season after we've already got our draft position set. Zach would be our 3rd star with a potential of the fourth being a wing in the draft. 

Ja

Zach

Top 3 draft

Jaren

JV 

I'm not saying move picks at this current juncture but definitely have an idea of players you'd like to obtain and avenues to do so. With that being said, what do you suggest we do with our cap in 2021?

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But I understand that would be a defensive atrocious team,  its definitely a start and now we can add those pieces that fill out the teams goal. Unfortunately I don't think JV would be a long term piece. 

Ja

Zach

Lottery wing

Clarke

Jaren 

To close out games

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I kinda hope we get a top 4 pick in the 2021 draft. I know it means we suck this season but I really hope we do 

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Lotto luck and utah missing the playoffs would be a good start. Depending on the season id look at deals like ariza , tj leaf and a couple more picks before thinking a fa will come save the day. Id much rather wait and push to contend than push for the playoffs before our youth does either. Thats what the kings do imho.

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I don't see us being as far away as you guys see us. I do think Ja and Jaren will improve. Jaren improved in my mind a fair amount last year, and was playing all star level basketball in his short stint in the bubble. We all know his weaknesses, and he needs to work on being consistent, but the potential is there and he seems to improve every time he has a layoff. Ja struggled in the bubble with efficiency, but he averaged over 10 assists a game down there. He could realistically be a 20 and 10 guy as soon as next year. 

Clarke will hopefully continue to improve as well, particularly from 3. Justise needs to get healthy and back to from. Dillon needs to improve shot selection and several other things, but it is mainly coaching that he needs. 

Either way, we can make a big leap by internal improvements. We have to see what we can do to an extent with this core before we can add to it and address weaknesses. They should be able to know that by the trade deadline or free agency next year though. 

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1 hour ago, toocoolkellz said:

I'm not referring to moving nay picks. Kelly, Victor and Evan will all be free agents next year when we have the funds to make some moves without moving assets.  My question revolves around the idea of those guys in as free agents.  Zach is the only one that would have to be traded for and  truthfully I'd consider doing it dependent on how next years draft goes. 

We will only sign role players and solid starters at best with our FA money.  Not really any prime Allstars.  Who has ever said otherwise?  The moving the needle argument is a counter to those that wants to give up a bunch of picks right now for these types of players. 

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Just now, Dwash said:

We will only sign role players and solid starters at best with our FA money.  Not really any prime Allstars.  Who has ever said otherwise?  The moving the needle argument is a counter to those that wants to give up a bunch of picks right now for these types of players. 

I guess my question is are you guys against signing them in free agency or just against giving up assets to get them? I agree with you on not giving up assets because they'll be available in free agency so thats pointless. I just wasn't sure if them not moving the needle meant you're not interested at all or just not at the expense of future assets 

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16 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

I don't see us being as far away as you guys see us. I do think Ja and Jaren will improve. Jaren improved in my mind a fair amount last year, and was playing all star level basketball in his short stint in the bubble. We all know his weaknesses, and he needs to work on being consistent, but the potential is there and he seems to improve every time he has a layoff. Ja struggled in the bubble with efficiency, but he averaged over 10 assists a game down there. He could realistically be a 20 and 10 guy as soon as next year. 

Clarke will hopefully continue to improve as well, particularly from 3. Justise needs to get healthy and back to from. Dillon needs to improve shot selection and several other things, but it is mainly coaching that he needs. 

Either way, we can make a big leap by internal improvements. We have to see what we can do to an extent with this core before we can add to it and address weaknesses. They should be able to know that by the trade deadline or free agency next year though. 

waiting until free agency was what I would suggest too. I personally don't think we're a bad team, just that other teams are better. I'm also hoping for a lot of close games lost to inexperience lead to a top 5 pick in the draft.

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8 minutes ago, Dwash said:

We will only sign role players and solid starters at best with our FA money.  Not really any prime Allstars.  Who has ever said otherwise?  The moving the needle argument is a counter to those that wants to give up a bunch of picks right now for these types of players. 

also the guys that were mentioned are the level of talent we're likely to sign, but if they don't move the needle, whats the plan? 

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4 hours ago, toocoolkellz said:

I see a lot of posters saying that player A, doesn't move the needle etc... but realistically who's a player that we bring in that instantly moves the needle? Kelly Oubre, Zach Lavine, Victor O, and Evan are the players I've seen thrown around here more often than any others. Of those I do have my preferences but I want to hear from the "don't move the needle," crowd who instantly moves the needle and at the same time are realistically obtainable? Imho I don't think we will be able to sign a "move the needle," guy. This free agency is supposed to be stacked, but no freaking way we even mention any of the top free agents. I see us signing someone on those 4 level in free agency and hopefully picking up our third star in the draft. With that being said,  "move the needle crowd," who can we sign realistically that will satisfy you guys?

We wont be able to sign or trade for a Beal, Levert or even a Lavine, will cost too much. I believe we have a chance on Oubre next FA, Hield (but I dont want him) and Dipo/Fournier, that Im point forever that we should go after. We probably wont get those guys throw FA, our best way to go is a trade.

We may stick with what we have now and go with the 3rd star in next year draft. I would cover both pf those areas, I would trade for one of those and if we fail this year we get a top pick, if we dont package the pick plus others to move up and get that 3rd guy in the next year draft that everybody says is one of the bests.

Either way, I want Cade Cunningham in a Grizzlies uniform, he and Ja become 1a e 1b and Jaren becomes the 3rd option, this makes us for sure title contenders in a couple of years.

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9 minutes ago, Ja_Rules said:

We wont be able to sign or trade for a Beal, Levert or even a Lavine, will cost too much. I believe we have a chance on Oubre next FA, Hield (but I dont want him) and Dipo/Fournier, that Im point forever that we should go after. We probably wont get those guys throw FA, our best way to go is a trade.

We may stick with what we have now and go with the 3rd star in next year draft. I would cover both pf those areas, I would trade for one of those and if we fail this year we get a top pick, if we dont package the pick plus others to move up and get that 3rd guy in the next year draft that everybody says is one of the bests.

Either way, I want Cade Cunningham in a Grizzlies uniform, he and Ja become 1a e 1b and Jaren becomes the 3rd option, this makes us for sure title contenders in a couple of years.

If bubble jaren shows up, were a problem.  He was unbelievable in Orlando minus rebounding 

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14 minutes ago, Ja_Rules said:

We wont be able to sign or trade for a Beal, Levert or even a Lavine, will cost too much. I believe we have a chance on Oubre next FA, Hield (but I dont want him) and Dipo/Fournier, that Im point forever that we should go after. We probably wont get those guys throw FA, our best way to go is a trade.

We may stick with what we have now and go with the 3rd star in next year draft. I would cover both pf those areas, I would trade for one of those and if we fail this year we get a top pick, if we dont package the pick plus others to move up and get that 3rd guy in the next year draft that everybody says is one of the bests.

Either way, I want Cade Cunningham in a Grizzlies uniform, he and Ja become 1a e 1b and Jaren becomes the 3rd option, this makes us for sure title contenders in a couple of years.

Ja 

Cade

Oubre

Bubble jaren

Jv 

That is a nice lineup though. I would look at Zach too.  Depending on how the bulls season turns out he may be available 

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48 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

I guess my question is are you guys against signing them in free agency or just against giving up assets to get them? I agree with you on not giving up assets because they'll be available in free agency so thats pointless. I just wasn't sure if them not moving the needle meant you're not interested at all or just not at the expense of future assets 

I'm against trading assets for them.  I wouldn't mind signing  one (especially after this 2021 draft) but wouldn't want to sign a bunch of them like the Hawks did because they block internal development of some of your younger players and could eventually lead to making some tough decisions with regards to luxury tax. 

Free agent signings would have to be the final piece to the puzzle for a team that isn't signing major all star free agents.  They should not be building blocks  or guys you think you need to even make the playoffs (eg. Hawks). That's not good long term building. 

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5 minutes ago, Dwash said:

I'm against trading assets for them.  I wouldn't mind signing  one (especially after this 2021 draft) but wouldn't want to sign a bunch of them like the Hawks did because they block internal development of some of your younger players and could eventually lead to making some tough decisions with regards to luxury tax. 

Free agent signings would have to be the final piece to the puzzle for a team that isn't signing major all star free agents.  They should not be building blocks  or guys you think you need to even make the playoffs (eg. Hawks). That's not good long term building. 

Oh that makes perfect sense, I guess that could've been clarified without a whole post lmao

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46 minutes ago, Dwash said:

I'm against trading assets for them.  I wouldn't mind signing  one (especially after this 2021 draft) but wouldn't want to sign a bunch of them like the Hawks did because they block internal development of some of your younger players and could eventually lead to making some tough decisions with regards to luxury tax. 

Free agent signings would have to be the final piece to the puzzle for a team that isn't signing major all star free agents.  They should not be building blocks  or guys you think you need to even make the playoffs (eg. Hawks). That's not good long term building. 

Agreed but i think a tpe / caproom + a top 20 protected 1st that turns into two 2nds for Oubre is a steal. Deals like that would be great. Keeping picks protected for years is what really bites ya and takes away options . 

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54 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

Ja 

Cade

Oubre

Bubble jaren

Jv 

That is a nice lineup though. I would look at Zach too.  Depending on how the bulls season turns out he may be available 

Put Clarke in for JV and we have our death lineup.

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20 minutes ago, IdrinkGuinness said:

Agreed but i think a tpe / caproom + a top 20 protected 1st that turns into two 2nds for Oubre is a steal. Deals like that would be great. Keeping picks protected for years is what really bites ya and takes away options . 

I agree that's a deal worth doing. 

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12 minutes ago, Ja_Rules said:

Put Clarke in for JV and we have our death lineup.

Ja/tyus

Cade/Db

Oubre/Bane 

Jaren/Clarke

JV/Xavier or Porter 

I'd like to get Zach over Kelly,  but Kelly is easier to obtain

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24 minutes ago, IdrinkGuinness said:

Agreed but i think a tpe / caproom + a top 20 protected 1st that turns into two 2nds for Oubre is a steal. Deals like that would be great. Keeping picks protected for years is what really bites ya and takes away options . 

that depends on what GS does about Oubre's contract though. He's on his last year i at this point it seems GS only signed him for a stop gap due to Klay. Doesn't seem like he's in their long-term plans

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