Ole Dirty Klondike

Jaren and Justise Still Recovering, Will Not Be Ready for Season Start

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I feel like that doesn't get emphasized enough.   FO held Jaren out in order to help the tank that year (zion and Ja).   It was reported several times he couldve come back.  

Didn't you agree this wasn't true a couple of weeks ago? We did not tank that year. We won 33 games. We were trying to convey the pick to Boston, which only happened if we finished 9th or lower in the lottery. Grizz nation was bummed when Dallas "lost" the coin flip to draft 9th. (Pels and Mavs and Grizz won 33 games.) We totally lucked out, less than a 10% chance to move up to the top 2. 

Grizz FO may have been extra cautious with Jaren, just like this season apparently, but it wasn't to tank. 

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Doesn't matter if he was held out or not. Facts are ge missed 49 games due to injury and he'll probably miss another 15 minimum due to injuries. He is glass until proven otherwise

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2 hours ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

Doesn't matter if he was held out or not. Facts are ge missed 49 games due to injury and he'll probably miss another 15 minimum due to injuries. He is glass until proven otherwise

lol, no

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16 hours ago, The J Crew said:

Didn't you agree this wasn't true a couple of weeks ago? We did not tank that year. We won 33 games. We were trying to convey the pick to Boston, which only happened if we finished 9th or lower in the lottery. Grizz nation was bummed when Dallas "lost" the coin flip to draft 9th. (Pels and Mavs and Grizz won 33 games.) We totally lucked out, less than a 10% chance to move up to the top 2. 

Grizz FO may have been extra cautious with Jaren, just like this season apparently, but it wasn't to tank. 

Not sure how you can say this with so much certainty. 

If the front office and the team doctors are on the same page then they can do their best to "tank" by being "extra cautious" with injuries and providing the coach with inferior talent to work with.

The coaches and players are never going to tank, because their continued employment and future salaries depend on current performance. But the coach can only work with the players he has available. The front office can have a longer-term view and sacrifice current success for a higher draft pick that may lead to more success (i.e. revenue) in the future.

If you were going to tank, this is the year. There is no risk of losing ticket revenue from disgruntled fans who want to see Jaren play instead of whatever we pull off the scrap heap while half of our team is on the injured list. 

 

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1 minute ago, Zappastache said:

Not sure how you can say this with so much certainty. 

If the front office and the team doctors are on the same page then they can do their best to "tank" by being "extra cautious" with injuries and providing the coach with inferior talent to work with.

The coaches and players are never going to tank, because their continued employment and future salaries depend on current performance. But the coach can only work with the players he has available. The front office can have a longer-term view and sacrifice current success for a higher draft pick that may lead to more success (i.e. revenue) in the future.

If you were going to tank, this is the year. There is no risk of losing ticket revenue from disgruntled fans who want to see Jaren play instead of whatever we pull off the scrap heap while half of our team is on the injured list. 

Because it's really simple, teams that win 33 games, and are trying to win games the last week of the season so that they can convey an owed 1st round pick, are 100% not tanking. It's revisionist history to claim otherwise.

And also disagree that this is they year to tank - we should never tank. I agree 100% with the Verno stance on this. The absolute worst thing to do with a young team is to tank. And with the new lottery odds, it doesn't pay off anyway, and if you look at recent drafts, teams do just as well with the 11-15 picks as the 6-10 picks. These kids are 19 & 20 years old for the most part, it's just too hard to predict beyond the very top picks, and sometime they suck too - Fultz, Bagley, RJ . . .

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1 minute ago, The J Crew said:

Because it's really simple, teams that win 33 games, and are trying to win games the last week of the season so that they can convey an owed 1st round pick, are 100% not tanking. It's revisionist history to claim otherwise.

And also disagree that this is they year to tank - we should never tank. I agree 100% with the Verno stance on this. The absolute worst thing to do with a young team is to tank. And with the new lottery odds, it doesn't pay off anyway, and if you look at recent drafts, teams do just as well with the 11-15 picks as the 6-10 picks. These kids are 19 & 20 years old for the most part, it's just too hard to predict beyond the very top picks, and sometime they suck too - Fultz, Bagley, RJ . . .

Yeah, I think they wanted to convey last year when they saw where we were in the standings at the end of the year. If we had a higher chance of getting a top 3 pick I'm sure they would have played it differently. 

I agree that I never want to tank. I watch every game and go to a ton of them. I certainly want to see the best, most competitive team we can field. But getting Ja has completely turned this franchise's hopes around, and getting another player of his caliber in the draft has to be on their mind. 

I am speaking hypothetically, in that if you were going to tank, this is a year when potential repercussions are less than when there are fans in the stands. 

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15 hours ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

He's gonna average over 20 games missed a season, that's buns

So did Anthony Davis for the fist part of his career...

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2 hours ago, King Dork said:

So did Anthony Davis for the fist part of his career...

You don't think AD is still fragile? He missed 20 games last season and has to wear the compression sleeves full time now because of shoulder problems. Not counting the season he quit, he still misses 15 games a season. He was never as brittle as Jaren tho. The most games he missed in a 3 year stretch was 50. Jaren is already at 59 games missed with no firm return date. 

 

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1 hour ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

You don't think AD is still fragile? He missed 20 games last season and has to wear the compression sleeves full time now because of shoulder problems. Not counting the season he quit, he still misses 15 games a season. He was never as brittle as Jaren tho. The most games he missed in a 3 year stretch was 50. Jaren is already at 59 games missed with no firm return date. 

 

AD even said he signed a long term deal due to his injury history. 

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2 hours ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

You don't think AD is still fragile? He missed 20 games last season and has to wear the compression sleeves full time now because of shoulder problems. Not counting the season he quit, he still misses 15 games a season. He was never as brittle as Jaren tho. The most games he missed in a 3 year stretch was 50. Jaren is already at 59 games missed with no firm return date. 

 

But he didn't miss 20 games last year. He played 62 games but the Lakers only played 71 games for the season. So he missed 9 games. I'm pretty sure load management played into that.

I seriously doubt anyone would not want AD on this team now. You just have to figure out how to deal with his injuries. Will Jaren be that way? I have no clue. I'll wait and see how the rest of this season goes. If he gets injured again after coming back, I would start to agree. Right now, I'm not too worried about that injury his first year, he could've come back. The meniscus in the bubble was a freak thing so we'll see how stuff plays out. 

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25 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

But he didn't miss 20 games last year. He played 62 games but the Lakers only played 71 games for the season. So he missed 9 games. I'm pretty sure load management played into that.

I seriously doubt anyone would not want AD on this team now. You just have to figure out how to deal with his injuries. Will Jaren be that way? I have no clue. I'll wait and see how the rest of this season goes. If he gets injured again after coming back, I would start to agree. Right now, I'm not too worried about that injury his first year, he could've come back. The meniscus in the bubble was a freak thing so we'll see how stuff plays out. 

Oh, you're right about last year I forgot that they didn't play 82 last year. I would still call AD fragile based off of his past and own words tho, I mean the guy goes to the locker room with a nagging injury every other week.

JJJ was still hurt with a knee sprain and had missed 10? Games before the season was suspended. No matter how someone wants to frame it, missing 70 games in your first 3 seasons is booty butt cheeks and a bad start to his career. Am I saying that he'll be Mr Glass forever? No. But he's definitely glass until he proves otherwise over multiple years. If he does stay glass, obviously the better he'll have to be to put up with it. For now, he's the 2nd option unless we have tremendous lotto luck and if my 2nd option is missing 15-20 games a season he gotta be averaging like 23 and 7 to make it worthwhile. Also remember that Morant doesn't project to be the most durable guy, the 2nd option has to be dependable. I know people talk about JJJ having freak injuries too but the guy is just uncoordinated tbh

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31 minutes ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

Oh, you're right about last year I forgot that they didn't play 82 last year. I would still call AD fragile based off of his past and own words tho, I mean the guy goes to the locker room with a nagging injury every other week.

JJJ was still hurt with a knee sprain and had missed 10? Games before the season was suspended. No matter how someone wants to frame it, missing 70 games in your first 3 seasons is booty butt cheeks and a bad start to his career. Am I saying that he'll be Mr Glass forever? No. But he's definitely glass until he proves otherwise over multiple years. If he does stay glass, obviously the better he'll have to be to put up with it. For now, he's the 2nd option unless we have tremendous lotto luck and if my 2nd option is missing 15-20 games a season he gotta be averaging like 23 and 7 to make it worthwhile. Also remember that Morant doesn't project to be the most durable guy, the 2nd option has to be dependable. I know people talk about JJJ having freak injuries too but the guy is just uncoordinated tbh

I agree about his lack of coordination. That scares me. I'll give him another year to see how he holds up. At this point, as long as he ain't Winslow. I'm fine

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1 hour ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

JJJ was still hurt with a knee sprain and had missed 10? Games before the season was suspended. No matter how someone wants to frame it, missing 70 games in your first 3 seasons is booty butt cheeks and a bad start to his career. Am I saying that he'll be Mr Glass forever? No. But he's definitely glass until he proves otherwise over multiple years. If he does stay glass, obviously the better he'll have to be to put up with it. For now, he's the 2nd option unless we have tremendous lotto luck and if my 2nd option is missing 15-20 games a season he gotta be averaging like 23 and 7 to make it worthwhile. Also remember that Morant doesn't project to be the most durable guy, the 2nd option has to be dependable. I know people talk about JJJ having freak injuries too but the guy is just uncoordinated tbh

Booty butt cheeks???

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1 hour ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

 Will Jaren be that way? I have no clue. I'll wait and see how the rest of this season goes. If he gets injured again after coming back, I would start to agree. Right now, I'm not too worried about that injury his first year, he could've come back. The meniscus in the bubble was a freak thing so we'll see how stuff plays out. 

True, maybe he could have come back his rookie year, but still would have been an injury that cost him weeks.

And, JJJ was 'lucky' to have the meniscus tear with 5 games left in the bubble season. If he would have had that in week 1 of this season, he would have missed the whole season. 

Also, I don't agree the meniscus was a freak thing. He had the left knee strain earlier in Feb/March, and then the meniscus. Seems like he has, hopefully had, weakness and wear and tear in that knee. He had the surgery around August 10th, maybe after a 6 month rehab he is back to full strength. Hope so. Time will tell. 

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1 hour ago, The J Crew said:

Also, I don't agree the meniscus was a freak thing. He had the left knee strain earlier in Feb/March, and then the meniscus. Seems like he has, hopefully had, weakness and wear and tear in that knee. He had the surgery around August 10th, maybe after a 6 month rehab he is back to full strength. Hope so. Time will tell. 

It's all speculation. None of us really know the true health of his knee. I tore my meniscus in 2007 with no other prior injuries. Yes, if he had weakness it could be related but then again, it could not. I would hope that they have a full time training staff with physical therapists to work on things like weakness after a knee strain because they know that weakness could lead to further injury. I would be surprised if they didn't. Once again, it's all speculation. None of us know. I'll see how it goes once he returns and how things look over the next year. If he keeps getting injured over and over again, then I would be concerned but at this point I'm not. 

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On 1/11/2021 at 5:17 PM, I❤️JV said:

If Jaren is the 1st option it means Ja already left the Grizz and we are F   ed.

Everybody knows that between Ja and Jaren, Ja is the right and the easiest answer as the go to player, Im just saying that talent wise Jaren can be a 1st option if he devolops right. But Ja is a generation type of talent, and we are lucky to have him here.

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it's nice to have these debates and on-going discussions as far as if jjj is injury prone...

I think that we could all agree that if there is yet another setback once he rejoins the team...well, then there would be no doubt that the label ip would fit. and...if that is the case, I would also think we could all agree that being labeled as ip would negatively impact his trade potential or just potential in general.

that, in my eyes, is the real dilemma for the fo. I believe a healthy and reliable jjj is a great piece moving forward with team ja. however, have yet another setback for jjj and the fo not only has a problem with a featured piece next to ja...they would then also have a problem with using that piece in a trade because of the ip label.

it is an issue and the fo is at the poker table with these scenarios. hopefully, jjj will be blessed with great health upon his return and the team will mold into its best self.

 

slim.

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36 minutes ago, memphis slim said:

it's nice to have these debates and on-going discussions as far as if jjj is injury prone...

I think that we could all agree that if there is yet another setback once he rejoins the team...well, then there would be no doubt that the label ip would fit. and...if that is the case, I would also think we could all agree that being labeled as ip would negatively impact his trade potential or just potential in general.

that, in my eyes, is the real dilemma for the fo. I believe a healthy and reliable jjj is a great piece moving forward with team ja. however, have yet another setback for jjj and the fo not only has a problem with a featured piece next to ja...they would then also have a problem with using that piece in a trade because of the ip label.

it is an issue and the fo is at the poker table with these scenarios. hopefully, jjj will be blessed with great health upon his return and the team will mold into its best self.

 

slim.

Agreed. I would add the big issue, for me at least, is that JJJ is extension eligible this fall. So Kleiman and Cho and company might have to make a max extension decision with Jaren being hurt for substantial parts of his 1st 3 seasons.

I wouldn't offer it at end of year 3. Would make Jaren wait until he completes his 4th year, when he would still be restricted. 

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JJJ's injuries are frustrating, but one difference right now from a few other players is that the kid is still growing and maturing into his body, and this is a man's league.  All signs suggest he is injury prone, but it may not be that way once he quits growing.

 

It sure would be nice to see this team with Ja, JJJ, and Justise playing together.  Like the secret Dream Team videos of practices from 1992, I hear there is video of the three of them practicing and playing together in 5 v 5 in Orlando, but it is apparently buried deep within the Carousel of Progress at Disney World, and we may never see it.

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51 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Agreed. I would add the big issue, for me at least, is that JJJ is extension eligible this fall. So Kleiman and Cho and company might have to make a max extension decision with Jaren being hurt for substantial parts of his 1st 3 seasons.

I wouldn't offer it at end of year 3. Would make Jaren wait until he completes his 4th year, when he would still be restricted. 

Jaren hasn't come close to proving he's worth a max contract. He has potential so obviously he can prove differently this year but he's basically giving you the same stats as Lauri Marksmen so far

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1 minute ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

Jaren hasn't come close to proving he's worth a max contract. He has potential so obviously he can prove differently this year but he's basically giving you the same stats as Lauri Marksmen so far

I agree. But there are many players who have signed max contracts who didn't deserve them. 

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2 hours ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

Jaren hasn't come close to proving he's worth a max contract. He has potential so obviously he can prove differently this year but he's basically giving you the same stats as Lauri Marksmen so far

 

2 hours ago, The J Crew said:

I agree. But there are many players who have signed max contracts who didn't deserve them. 

So the Grizzlies should offer JJJ a max deal because other teams have signed players to max contracts who didn't deserve them? 

My mom always told me "just because your friend jumped off a bridge doesn't mean you have to as well."

See the source image

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1 minute ago, chipc3 said:

 

So the Grizzlies should offer JJJ a max deal because other teams have signed players to max contracts who didn't deserve them? 

My mom always told me "just because your friend jumped off a bridge doesn't mean you have to as well."

 

Chip, you're 100% missing the point if you somehow think that's my position.

Again, should and deserve don't have much to do with it. Will Kleiman feel compelled to offer the max extension when JJJ becomes extension eligible this October, having just turned 22? That's the question. Max contracts are given as much on potential as performance, which is why so many become terrible, albatross contracts. 

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Just now, The J Crew said:

Chip, you're 100% missing the point if you somehow think that's my position.

Again, should and deserve don't have much to do with it. Will Kleiman feel compelled to offer the max extension when JJJ becomes extension eligible this October, having just turned 22? That's the question. Max contracts are given as much on potential as performance, which is why so many become terrible, albatross contracts. 

I don't believe anyone associated with the Grizzlies will feel compelled to offer him the max with his playing record so far. Steph Curry wasn't offered the max after his injury filled first few years and with Chandler Parsons plus Justise Winslow in their memory I sincerely doubt a max deal is owed to Jaren for his playing record so far. 

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