Grizzhype

New Official 2021 Grind City Draft Thread & Lottery Picks Watch!

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3 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

If jaren is moved to the 5 and Jonas is willing to be a backup then what more size do we need?    There are lots of back of the draft True Bigs that should be available at 51 or undrafted.  Scoop one of them up like they did with Porter.   

Jaren working out in drills with Javale McGhee has me leaning towards him understanding he needs to be a 5.  

For me I think we need another at least starter level wing. Ja, DB, Jaren and  JV are our starters that are at least starter level players. Of course matchup may require something different but for the most part this is our starters who are st the least starter level. In a guard and sf friendly draft I'd rather fill that need than getting Usman 

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48 minutes ago, bterry1990 said:

I think ppl wouldn't mind Garuba just not at 17.....Plus we already have a log jam of forwards who are 6'8 or 6'9 plus I think a lot of us wants some size at center after watching Gobert dominate us

Assuming no big surprise picks where someone falls into our laps, I think we'll be looking at Murphy at #17 or potentially trading back a few spots to get Garuba and/or Christopher.

Murphy is probably the safest of the three - he already has the 3-point shot and seems to be at least adequate defensively.

I like Christopher a lot, but I'm not sure he moves the needle much.  He's a potential diamond-in-the rough.  If he's got the work-ethic, he could be a solid starter for us in a few years.  If he has an average work-ethic, I'm not sure he's going to be better than Bane or Allen.

Garuba is a leap-of-faith.  Situationally, I like that he can immediately help us in areas where we need help in defensively - pick-and-role, 3-point pressure, weak-side help defense, and can guard an athletic big like  Lebron or KD.  Think of a young-inexperienced Draymond Green before Draymond became a 3-point threat and big assist guy.  If he had a better offensive game, he wouldn't be available at #17 pick.

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I like Garuba, but the main issue with drafting him is that it is mostly a move to counteract the weaknesses of the returning big men.

I'm more an advocate of BPA than need for the most part in those situations.

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13 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

For me I think we need another at least starter level wing. Ja, DB, Jaren and  JV are our starters that are at least starter level players. Of course matchup may require something different but for the most part this is our starters who are st the least starter level. In a guard and sf friendly draft I'd rather fill that need than getting Usman 

i agree that we need at least one starting level wing - thats why i still want Christopher.   He has starter level upside and more.  He isn't a small guard so can technically guard both positions thanks to his strength and wingspan.   

The other wing i want is someone with definitive size, more of a combo forward - Trey Murphy is ideal but he is not a day one starter either.   Franz Wagner is only other guy potentially gettable that  i can see being a day one starter but his upside is so limited.    

I want to come away from this draft with three prospects.   A shot creating wing with size, a 3d wing with size, and a Big that can defend in space. 

So i still want the same types you want. 

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16 minutes ago, pjs said:

Assuming no big surprise picks where someone falls into our laps, I think we'll be looking at Murphy at #17 or potentially trading back a few spots to get Garuba and/or Christopher.

Murphy is probably the safest of the three - he already has the 3-point shot and seems to be at least adequate defensively.

I like Christopher a lot, but I'm not sure he moves the needle much.  He's a potential diamond-in-the rough.  If he's got the work-ethic, he could be a solid starter for us in a few years.  If he has an average work-ethic, I'm not sure he's going to be better than Bane or Allen.

Garuba is a leap-of-faith.  Situationally, I like that he can immediately help us in areas where we need help in defensively - pick-and-role, 3-point pressure, weak-side help defense, and can guard an athletic big like  Lebron or KD.  Think a young-inexperienced Draymond Green before Draymond became a 3-point threat and big assist guy.  If he had a better offensive game, he wouldn't be available at #17 pick.

Agree Murphy is the safest

Christopher has the most star potential for sure - i heard he has a good work ethic too. 

i think Garuba has the highest floor because he already has an elite skill and played against grown men.   That's not the leap of faith pick.  Josh Christopher would be that because his stats weren't that great. 

If Garuba was a deadly 3pt shooter he would be surefire lottery pick.  I have read that he has great work ethic as well and is still young.  So lots of potential for growth.  

Now that i have decided Jaren will be moving to the 5.  Usman becomes a much more viable prospect.  Having 2 switchable Bigs will make our defense ELITE and will easily cover for Ja's bad defense. 

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26 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Agree Murphy is the safest

Christopher has the most star potential for sure - i heard he has a good work ethic too. 

i think Garuba has the highest floor because he already has an elite skill and played against grown men.   That's not the leap of faith pick.  Josh Christopher would be that because his stats weren't that great. 

If Garuba was a deadly 3pt shooter he would be surefire lottery pick.  I have read that he has great work ethic as well and is still young.  So lots of potential for growth.  

Now that i have decided Jaren will be moving to the 5.  Usman becomes a much more viable prospect.  Having 2 switchable Bigs will make our defense ELITE and will easily cover for Ja's bad defense. 

Is Garuba supposed to be a cross between Anthony Bennett and Hasheem Thabeet?  Bennett was a better scorer/offensive weapon while Thabeet was much taller, longer and a better shot blocker.  If he is Draymond Green Lite then that is Xavier Tillman and we already have that guy.  

Evan Mobley is my top big man.  Jericho Sims is in a tier down (or two tiers lower).  I am getting back into Isaiah Jackson.  I just like lanky, athletic, explosive bigs.

Vrenz/Trey are my favorite combo wings.  I actually think they would fit well with Ja/Jaren/Dillon as well as Sims or Jackson if we acquire a bouncy 2 way vertical threat.  
 

My favorite non-Jalen Green small guard is probably Miles McBride.  I like Christopher ok but he him and Keon Johnson and Quentin Grimes... maybe Springdr I don’t see a ton of separation there.  Then maybe you just draft Scottie Lewis a lot later as an athletic 2 guard with 3 and D potential.  
 

Maybe we can get 3 (or 4?) guys in this draft.  Pencil in Ja/Bane/Dillon/Clarke/Jaren as our opening night starters (and XT as a key bench piece) and shop everyone else.  
 

This is a great draft to find our secondary core guys and maybe even an upgraded 3rd option.  They will still be on rookie deals after Ja/Jaren sign their second contracts and Dillon (probably) gets locked in long-term.  ‘21 picks on their last year of their rookie deal will be matched up with Ja’s 6th season (prime!!!) as well as 3J’s 7th season (prime!!!!) and Dillon’s 8th season (peak??? Late prime???).  

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17 minutes ago, King Dork said:

I don’t want Garuba in the second round. Dude is a bust, plain and simple. 

I seriously doubt one of the top players in the Spanish league at 18 years old built like a grown man will bust. I look at him as a Serge Ibaka type guy, he is not as long as I would like but not sure on his wingspan. He is a good defender coming in, his shot is developing. 

Edit, one article says 7'3" wingspan

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2 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

If Moses Moody falls we have to take him.   He is all over the place in Mocks. 

I would like Moody, Bouknight, maybe Kispert, Christopher, I also like the Bones kid from VCU later in the draft. The two Euro bigs look ok too.

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14 minutes ago, Jetfixer said:

I seriously doubt one of the top players in the Spanish league at 18 years old built like a grown man will bust. I look at him as a Serge Ibaka type guy, he is not as long as I would like but not sure on his wingspan. He is a good defender coming in, his shot is developing. 

https://streamable.com/y9rbjk

 


https://www.thestrick.land/strick/2021-nba-draft-profile-usman-garuba This says his wingspan is 7'3'.  

Usman Garuba is a 6-foot-8, 230-lb. defensive specialist who played for Real Madrid, one of the premier teams of the EuroLeague. He’s been on their roster since he was 16, and started getting real rotation minutes at only 17 years old. This is no small feat for any player, but especially a big; they usually have the steepest learning curve adjusting to pro ball, as the different coverages and schemes can be a bit overwhelming for players who probably relied on outlier physical skills to get by at lower levels. Not only did Garuba survive on that side of the ball, he excelled.

Garuba is the closest thing to a playoff defender built in a lab. He has the size and strength to hang with most 5s, but can also consistently blow up pick-and-rolls (while guarding either the ball handler or the screen setter!). He’s a true switch big, with elite lateral quickness and perimeter instincts for a 6-foot-8-plus player, rivaled only by the likes of Bam Adebayo (he even clamped up OAKAAK Shane Larkin in a clip that went semi-viral earlier this season). He’s so good at suffocating smaller players on the perimeter that some have even floated the idea of playing him at the wing. And although deploying him as a traditional rim protector probably isn’t his ideal fit (we’ll get to that in a minute), his length and ground coverage should theoretically allow him to be pretty solid there too. He’s an elite defensive prospect, and If the NBA had designated defenders, he’d easily be a top 10 pick, if not higher. 

 

Like i said his defensive potential is intriguing.  He is another guy like Jaren that is difficult to figure out his ceiling but has a definite floor. 

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Is it just me or do you guys feel the best players in this draft might not be the top two or three guys? I would take Cade first too, but I don't see him way out in front of many.

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8 minutes ago, Jetfixer said:

Is it just me or do you guys feel the best players in this draft might not be the top two or three guys? I would take Cade first too, but I don't see him way out in front of many.

I have Green and Mobley at 1/2 and either Tier 1 or Tier 1.5 guys but I see your point.  I have Cade a bit (lot) lower.  I am #MEH on Kuminga but being the contrarian I will try to sell myself on him if most others are more pessimistic on him now.  If he turns into just Deluxe Jeff Green I might move him up to 3.  Or at least top 5 or 6.  
 

Or the lower ranked guys are underrated and the higher ranked guys are overrated and basically everyone in this draft is Tier 2.5 or Tier 3.  I’m actually considering this scenario.  And it’s basically my Draft Tier Breakdown after Green/Mobley.  I also think Jalen Johnson has top 3 potential but I don’t see the intangibles.  Not sure what his position is either but I can see him being a Point Center.  Maybe the Pels should just run JJ/Zion pick and rolls and go for broke.  Between Green/Mobley and Jalen Johnson I actually have Vrenz/Trey/Sims at 2-5 since I love those archetypes.

I have Miles McBride as my first point guard off the board.  Isaiah Jackson is currently my third ranked big man.  And maybe that should be it as far as bigs for round 1.  Right now I have Franz Wagner ahead of Cade/Kuminga/Barnes.

 

I was actually really high on a few guys who pulled out of the draft: Roko, Badji and Isaiah Mobley.  But I guess that just adds to next year’s draft.  I had Roko and Badji as lotto before they withdrew.  Should probably be mid-first/lotto guys next year.  and Isaiah Mobley is a guy that’s super toolsy.  Makur Maker is out too.  Those were basically my favorite bigs outside of Evan Mobley (then Jericho Sims after a solid drop off).  
 

 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

https://streamable.com/y9rbjk

 


https://www.thestrick.land/strick/2021-nba-draft-profile-usman-garuba This says his wingspan is 7'3'.  

Usman Garuba is a 6-foot-8, 230-lb. defensive specialist who played for Real Madrid, one of the premier teams of the EuroLeague. He’s been on their roster since he was 16, and started getting real rotation minutes at only 17 years old. This is no small feat for any player, but especially a big; they usually have the steepest learning curve adjusting to pro ball, as the different coverages and schemes can be a bit overwhelming for players who probably relied on outlier physical skills to get by at lower levels. Not only did Garuba survive on that side of the ball, he excelled.

Garuba is the closest thing to a playoff defender built in a lab. He has the size and strength to hang with most 5s, but can also consistently blow up pick-and-rolls (while guarding either the ball handler or the screen setter!). He’s a true switch big, with elite lateral quickness and perimeter instincts for a 6-foot-8-plus player, rivaled only by the likes of Bam Adebayo (he even clamped up OAKAAK Shane Larkin in a clip that went semi-viral earlier this season). He’s so good at suffocating smaller players on the perimeter that some have even floated the idea of playing him at the wing. And although deploying him as a traditional rim protector probably isn’t his ideal fit (we’ll get to that in a minute), his length and ground coverage should theoretically allow him to be pretty solid there too. He’s an elite defensive prospect, and If the NBA had designated defenders, he’d easily be a top 10 pick, if not higher. 

 

Like i said his defensive potential is intriguing.  He is another guy like Jaren that is difficult to figure out his ceiling but has a definite floor. 

4/5 tweeners.  Both.  BC and XT are also tweeners.  Also sounds like Garuba needs to play the 5.  Not a scorer.  Then does Jaren even have enough quickness/agility to play the 4?  Maybe that’s why he’s a foul machine.  Then, both Jaren and Garuba but both are slow loaders.  Mobley is quick off the floor as is Jericho Sims (and Isaiah Jackson).  

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41 minutes ago, ALT GRIND said:

4/5 tweeners.  Both.  BC and XT are also tweeners.  Also sounds like Garuba needs to play the 5.  Not a scorer.  Then does Jaren even have enough quickness/agility to play the 4?  Maybe that’s why he’s a foul machine.  Then, both Jaren and Garuba but both are slow loaders.  Mobley is quick off the floor as is Jericho Sims (and Isaiah Jackson).  

Its same exact scenario when putting Jaren beside Brandon.   Jaren is the floor spacing Big (and like BC) Garuba would be the in the dunker spot.       Difference is that Garuba can hold his own against most 5s AND can also guard Wings.  Plus Garuba is still developing physically whereas BC is who he is at this point.   Garuba would be the 4 and Jaren the 5. 

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32 minutes ago, Jetfixer said:

I don't have a guess as to which guys are best, just don't see Cade or Mobley as Zion/Ja.

I don’t either.  And I really really like Evan Mobley and had Zion lower on my board that basically everyone.  Jalen Green MIGHT be on that Ja/Zion tier though....  and Mobley might not be AD 2.0 but he’s as close as your are gonna get.  Definitely some Walton/Admiral/AD upside there.

 

I am lower on Cade.  His stats matchup with Dennis Scott’s college career highs in points, rebounds and assists (although they each came in a different season of Dennis Scott’s 3 year college career).  On a per 40 minute basis, Cade’s stats resemble those of a second year Memphis State Tiger Sylvester “Deuce” Ford.

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3 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Agree Murphy is the safest

Christopher has the most star potential for sure - i heard he has a good work ethic too. 

i think Garuba has the highest floor because he already has an elite skill and played against grown men.   That's not the leap of faith pick.  Josh Christopher would be that because his stats weren't that great. 

If Garuba was a deadly 3pt shooter he would be surefire lottery pick.  I have read that he has great work ethic as well and is still young.  So lots of potential for growth.  

Now that i have decided Jaren will be moving to the 5.  Usman becomes a much more viable prospect.  Having 2 switchable Bigs will make our defense ELITE and will easily cover for Ja's bad defense. 

I've got serious concerns about Christopher. Sure he is big and athletic but so is everybody else in the NBA. Here's my concerns:

1) he wasn't a positively impactful college player- why should he be better against bigger and more athletic players in the NBA. Maybe you can chalk this up to team situation but still not good

2) potential low BBIQ- bad assist rate and only had 13 assists in the half court in 15 games. Also gets lost in defense off ball regularly

3) I've heard concerns over work ethic because of lack of defensive intensity most of the time. I've heard him described as indifferent about defense

4) wing with shooting concerns- he only shot 30% from 3 and many missed were way off which a a bad sign. FT % was good so that is hopeful.

Overall, I think his bust potential is pretty high. Maybe he could become a multi positional defender and shot creator but I see a low efficiency chucker at the moment and would need a strong scouting report to make that risk worth it

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Thegoodguys said:

I've got serious concerns about Christopher. Sure he is big and athletic but so is everybody else in the NBA. Here's my concerns:

1) he wasn't a positively impactful college player- why should he be better against bigger and more athletic players in the NBA. Maybe you can chalk this up to team situation but still not good

2) potential low BBIQ- bad assist rate and only had 13 assists in the half court in 15 games. Also gets lost in defense off ball regularly

3) I've heard concerns over work ethic because of lack of defensive intensity most of the time. I've heard him described as indifferent about defense

4) wing with shooting concerns- he only shot 30% from 3 and many missed were way off which a a bad sign. FT % was good so that is hopeful.

Overall, I think his bust potential is pretty high. Maybe he could become a multi positional defender and shot creator but I see a low efficiency chucker at the moment and would need a strong scouting report to make that risk worth it

 

 

 

 

I am basically trying to sort out players by efficiency too.  Maybe the only reason to have Franz Wagner anywhere close to the lottery (meh athlete at best with pedestrian highlights) but in the right spot could be worth a top 5-8 pick.  Cade wasn’t really efficient but shares Wagner’s meh athleticism/highlights so I have Franz Wagner a couple of spots higher than Cade on my big board.

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3 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Agree Murphy is the safest

Christopher has the most star potential for sure - i heard he has a good work ethic too. 

i think Garuba has the highest floor because he already has an elite skill and played against grown men.   That's not the leap of faith pick.  Josh Christopher would be that because his stats weren't that great. 

If Garuba was a deadly 3pt shooter he would be surefire lottery pick.  I have read that he has great work ethic as well and is still young.  So lots of potential for growth.  

Now that i have decided Jaren will be moving to the 5.  Usman becomes a much more viable prospect.  Having 2 switchable Bigs will make our defense ELITE and will easily cover for Ja's bad defense. 

Good points.  I agree Garuba looks really good defensively right away.  However, I don't see him getting consistent playing time until he makes himself at least a fairly good threat on the offensive end.  We don't want the team playing 4-on-5 on the offensive end.

Man, this draft is difficult to gauge - I just hope we aren't the ones kicking ourselves in a few years.  If Christopher is a gym-rat ... take him.  If not, look into Garuba's work-ethic and offensive mechanics.  If there's any doubt - play it safe & take Murphy.  The front-office has done well the last few drafts - if they can hit a home-run in this draft, watch out!

 

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30 minutes ago, pjs said:

Good points.  I agree Garuba looks really good defensively right away.  However, I don't see him getting consistent playing time until he makes himself at least a fairly good threat on the offensive end.  We don't want the team playing 4-on-5 on the offensive end.

Man, this draft is difficult to gauge - I just hope we aren't the ones kicking ourselves in a few years.  If Christopher is a gym-rat ... take him.  If not, look into Garuba's work-ethic and offensive mechanics.  If there's any doubt - play it safe & take Murphy.  The front-office has done well the last few drafts - if they can hit a home-run in this draft, watch out!

 

Yea Garuba shouldnt be penciled in as starter till he shows more offensively.     This draft has some real gems and with the right development and fit lots of guys that can go on to have solid NBA careers. 

I say move on from Jontay and one of Grayson or Melton and get 3 draft picks.   

Here is a guy that is projected to late 2nd rd or undrafted.  This is the type i say try to get on a 2way.

 

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1 hour ago, Thegoodguys said:

I've got serious concerns about Christopher. Sure he is big and athletic but so is everybody else in the NBA. Here's my concerns:

1) he wasn't a positively impactful college player- why should he be better against bigger and more athletic players in the NBA. Maybe you can chalk this up to team situation but still not good

2) potential low BBIQ- bad assist rate and only had 13 assists in the half court in 15 games. Also gets lost in defense off ball regularly

3) I've heard concerns over work ethic because of lack of defensive intensity most of the time. I've heard him described as indifferent about defense

4) wing with shooting concerns- he only shot 30% from 3 and many missed were way off which a a bad sign. FT % was good so that is hopeful.

Overall, I think his bust potential is pretty high. Maybe he could become a multi positional defender and shot creator but I see a low efficiency chucker at the moment and would need a strong scouting report to make that risk worth it

 

 

 

 

mirrored most of my concerns about him to a T.  what really separates him from grimes, scottie lewis, etc?  he's been an inefficient chucker since high school and that's my concern.  i want an efficient shot maker/shooter next to ja.  the bench is where a creator is most needed.  ja and dillon can create, kyle can when he has a mismatch, allen and bane can sometimes but moreso by attacking closeouts, JJJ is a mismatch and can create.  christopher definitely has high bust potential.  allonzo trier is a similar player but was far better in highschool/college.  he played well w/ the knicks but is out the league largely due to his team unfriendly/selfish style of play.  if christopher is this great scorer/creator, etc, then he should not even be in our draft range.  we should draft murphy if available at 17, not christopher.  if we are looking for a high upside wing to eventually pencil in as a starter, then we should be looking to consolidate are pick/players and trade up rather than swinging for christopher at 17.  and as it pertains to garuba, i love his defensive potential.  and he's only 18, so he will likely grow more and could actually become a defensive nightmare guarding 3-5.

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5 minutes ago, dy_dy_dynomite said:

Garuba is pretty much a young okc Ibaka 

I thought that was Jaren.  If we got Garuba we couldn’t play him with either Tillman or Clarke.  Not enough size/scoring/shooting.  
 

Early Ibaka had straight line speed and a vertical.  He dunked from the foul line in the dunk contest.  That’s not Usman Garuba.

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33 minutes ago, grizz09 said:

mirrored most of my concerns about him to a T.  what really separates him from grimes, scottie lewis, etc?  he's been an inefficient chucker since high school and that's my concern.  i want an efficient shot maker/shooter next to ja.  the bench is where a creator is most needed.  ja and dillon can create, kyle can when he has a mismatch, allen and bane can sometimes but moreso by attacking closeouts, JJJ is a mismatch and can create.  christopher definitely has high bust potential.  allonzo trier is a similar player but was far better in highschool/college.  he played well w/ the knicks but is out the league largely due to his team unfriendly/selfish style of play.  if christopher is this great scorer/creator, etc, then he should not even be in our draft range.  we should draft murphy if available at 17, not christopher.  if we are looking for a high upside wing to eventually pencil in as a starter, then we should be looking to consolidate are pick/players and trade up rather than swinging for christopher at 17.  and as it pertains to garuba, i love his defensive potential.  and he's only 18, so he will likely grow more and could actually become a defensive nightmare guarding 3-5.

I agree on Christopher. But wouldn't be opposed to investing a 2nd rounder on him. I'll trust the guys who do this for a living. Vecenie had him 42nd in his draft guide in The Athletic. Long writeup, I'll paste the summary for those who don't subscribe: https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2021/07/21074551/2021-NBA-Draft-Guide-1.pdf

42. Josh Christopher G | Arizona State | Birthdate: Dec. 8, 2001 (Age: 19) | 6-5 | 215 LBS | Hometown: Carson, Calif.

Summary

Christopher certainly has quite a bit of talent as a shot creator. He’s shifty and vicious with how he gets into his shot — but the standard for playing this role in the NBA is exceptionally high. You need to not just be a good shooter; you have to be a great one. Currently, it’s uncertain if Christopher qualifies for the former designation. If we looked up in five years and Christopher was a terrific bench scorer because he worked hard to become the kind of shooter to be to play that role in the NBA, I wouldn’t be particularly surprised. His ability to get separation is real. If a team wants to take a flyer on that, I totally get it, especially given the defensive upside that exists with his disruptiveness. That’s where he can really separate himself from some of the offense-dominant players. Throwing in that he doesn’t really play well with his teammates in terms of getting them involved, along with he’s not always engaged defensively, and this just isn’t my kind of player type. I’d rather get Christopher on a second contract than a first one."

The "doesn't really play well with teammates in terms of getting them involved" part would seem to make him an unlikely fit here. 

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