bhoyal

Crowder had 16 & 6 in the Miami upset win?

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Are we giving up on some older guys too fast?   He's only 30, that's not ancient.

And he's built like an NFL player and you need a guy or two like that.

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Pure speculation, as in I haven't done any research...but I think Crowder is one of those players that brings a certain energy to teams. An energy that gives them an edge. Boston, Utah, and Memphis all seemed to lose a little bit of that aggression when he left each team and now Miami seems to have that. Could just be my imagination though.

 Regarding the age thing...I think it gets more attention than it should. Too many other factors to consider. I don't know why some people think young players have to play with young players and vice versa.

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I guess we're forgetting Jae was flat out awful here. He shot 36% from the field, and 29% from 3. The Heat have been playing him more at the 4 than we did, and it seems to have helped him out quite a bit. Now, we definitely lost something from a leadership perspective, and that does matter, but it is hard to question the theoretical fit of Justise (assuming he is ever healthy). 

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29% from three is one better than Kyle Slo-Mo and Melton and Tolliver all shot this season.

I like Crowder's toughness, going all the way back to seeing him play in person for Marquette at Vandy that time.

 

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1 hour ago, Rdk4121 said:

I guess we're forgetting Jae was flat out awful here. He shot 36% from the field, and 29% from 3. The Heat have been playing him more at the 4 than we did, and it seems to have helped him out quite a bit. Now, we definitely lost something from a leadership perspective, and that does matter, but it is hard to question the theoretical fit of Justise (assuming he is ever healthy). 

I don't know about flat out awful. He didn't shoot a great % but was second on the team in rebounding here, second in steals and provided a lot in the way of leadership. He was second only to Dillon in FT% when you look at the main rotation players.

He was always a transition guy, a bridge guy to help get us to the other side. He was not long term. He's clearly not a go to scorer or leading scorer, he's been a role player all of his career. He brought intangibles. We asked him to do more than he normally does and he accepted the role. Same thing with Dillon. I view him and Dillon the same. They are being asked to do something that is not their natural game. His % are higher in MIA because he's on a team with better players so teams don't focus on him.  

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59 minutes ago, bhoyal said:

29% from three is one better than Kyle Slo-Mo and Melton and Tolliver all shot this season.

I like Crowder's toughness, going all the way back to seeing him play in person for Marquette at Vandy that time.

 

 

The toughness is the added importance.  When Zach and Tony were dumped, and the team was still hoping for playoff success, it lacked toughness.  JaM and Gasol were fine "tough enough" guys when they had Zach and Tony to go with them, but when they were your first line of toughness, that was a problem.

It doesn't have to even be someone who is like the Morris twins that is willing to get dirty, but will stop up when Ja gets a dirty foul.  Someone that will be there by JV if thing go down.

Miami has about 5 of those guys now and I'm not sure Milwaukee has any. 

I'd be fine if the team picked up a vet FA this offseason that contributed in this area and not some Chandler Parsons/Ed Davis/Austin Daye type

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1 hour ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

I don't know about flat out awful. He didn't shoot a great % but was second on the team in rebounding here, second in steals and provided a lot in the way of leadership. He was second only to Dillon in FT% when you look at the main rotation players.

He was always a transition guy, a bridge guy to help get us to the other side. He was not long term. He's clearly not a go to scorer or leading scorer, he's been a role player all of his career. He brought intangibles. We asked him to do more than he normally does and he accepted the role. Same thing with Dillon. I view him and Dillon the same. They are being asked to do something that is not their natural game. His % are higher in MIA because he's on a team with better players so teams don't focus on him.  

But Dillon actually shoots an almost decent percentage from the field and from 3. Jae did not. Also I'm not buying we asked him to do more on offense or anything. He's taken 0.7 less shots per game in Miami (with less minutes per game as well in Miami), and what he did here was only 0.2 more than in Utah last year. He actually takes even more 3s in Miami than he did here, but he just happens to be shooting them at 44.5% there. He was certainly not the focus of anyone's defensive game plan against us, he was our 5th option on offense in the starting lineup just like he is there. We asked him to defend well and make open shots, he did one of those things pretty well. Miami asked him to do the same thing, and he happens to be doing both at a high level there (he's even better on defense in Miami, I suspect because he's mainly playing the 4). We didn't ask him to create offense or anything like that. His usage rate in Miami is almost identical to what it was here. He was just flat out bad here on offense.

I mentioned that he brought leadership (aka intangibles). He was a good rebounder, but I suspect that's mainly because Jaren isn't a good rebounder. A lot more rebounds to be had. 

2 hours ago, bhoyal said:

29% from three is one better than Kyle Slo-Mo and Melton and Tolliver all shot this season.

I like Crowder's toughness, going all the way back to seeing him play in person for Marquette at Vandy that time.

 

No one was confusing Kyle or Melton with good shooters. Just because they were bad, doesn't make Jae a good 3 point shooter.

Also, Tolliver shot 41.5% from 3 for us. I actually don't know where you are getting that 28% number for him, even for the entire season he shot 34% from 3 including the Portland and Sacremento stints. 

I liked Jae overall, but just imagine if he was actually playing well for us (like how he is playing in Miami). I would have liked him even more. 

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48 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

But Dillon actually shoots an almost decent percentage from the field and from 3. Jae did not. Also I'm not buying we asked him to do more on offense or anything. He's taken 0.7 less shots per game in Miami (with less minutes per game as well in Miami), and what he did here was only 0.2 more than in Utah last year. He actually takes even more 3s in Miami than he did here, but he just happens to be shooting them at 44.5% there. He was certainly not the focus of anyone's defensive game plan against us, he was our 5th option on offense in the starting lineup just like he is there. We asked him to defend well and make open shots, he did one of those things pretty well. Miami asked him to do the same thing, and he happens to be doing both at a high level there (he's even better on defense in Miami, I suspect because he's mainly playing the 4). We didn't ask him to create offense or anything like that. His usage rate in Miami is almost identical to what it was here. He was just flat out bad here on offense.

I mentioned that he brought leadership (aka intangibles). He was a good rebounder, but I suspect that's mainly because Jaren isn't a good rebounder. A lot more rebounds to be had. 

 

Look, I'm going to say 2 things about this:

  1. Everything that you are saying is explained by the fact that Jae is playing with better players in MIA and he gets more of an opportunity to do what he does. He couldn't do that here because we needed more out of his role. I don't know any other way to say that
  2. The fact that you admit that he was the second best rebounder but then try to give him a back handed compliment by saying he was only that because JJJ can't rebound, explains exactly what I am saying. He had to do more here. 

I don't care about how many 3's he took or that his usage rate is the same. I'm talking about the fact that we are talent deficient and the Heat are not. If we had 2 legit starting swingmen and Jae and Dillon came off of the bench, no one would care about their numbers. They were thrust into the starting lineup not because of their talent but due to the lack of overall talent on the Grizz. It's like you're trying to breakdown their stats to make a point. The bigger point is this was a bad team without much talent that was expected to go nowhere and then surprised the league. There's no use in breaking down stats because it's a talent deficient team and on those types of teams, you rely on people who aren't talented enough to do extra things, simple and plain. It's always been that way. 

I'm not worried about Jae's 3 pt shooting because we weren't going anywhere anyway and at most, he would only be here for 1 year. We're not talking about KD's impact on GS here you know. He did what he was supposed to do and I was happy he came here. It's not just his stats, it's his leadership, it's his toughness, it's his motivating other players but also, when Jae got traded here, the first thing he did on Twitter was switch his Twitter photo to a Grizz jersey and started talking about how happy he was to be in Memphis and his family ain't that far away.........Winslow was traded to the Grizz on Feb 6th and ain't once mentioned us or the city in his profile. 

 

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Tolliver was 28% from two point range.  My bad.

And I like Tolliver.  He's a versatile guy but at 35+ years old is nearing over the hill time.

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26 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

Look, I'm going to say 2 things about this:

  1. Everything that you are saying is explained by the fact that Jae is playing with better players in MIA and he gets more of an opportunity to do what he does. He couldn't do that here because we needed more out of his role. I don't know any other way to say that
  2. The fact that you admit that he was the second best rebounder but then try to give him a back handed compliment by saying he was only that because JJJ can't rebound, explains exactly what I am saying. He had to do more here. 

I don't care about how many 3's he took or that his usage rate is the same. I'm talking about the fact that we are talent deficient and the Heat are not. If we had 2 legit starting swingmen and Jae and Dillon came off of the bench, no one would care about their numbers. They were thrust into the starting lineup not because of their talent but due to the lack of overall talent on the Grizz. It's like you're trying to breakdown their stats to make a point. The bigger point is this was a bad team without much talent that was expected to go nowhere and then surprised the league. There's no use in breaking down stats because it's a talent deficient team and on those types of teams, you rely on people who aren't talented enough to do extra things, simple and plain. It's always been that way. 

I'm not worried about Jae's 3 pt shooting because we weren't going anywhere anyway and at most, he would only be here for 1 year. We're not talking about KD's impact on GS here you know. He did what he was supposed to do and I was happy he came here. It's not just his stats, it's his leadership, it's his toughness, it's his motivating other players but also, when Jae got traded here, the first thing he did on Twitter was switch his Twitter photo to a Grizz jersey and started talking about how happy he was to be in Memphis and his family ain't that far away.........Winslow was traded to the Grizz on Feb 6th and ain't once mentioned us or the city in his profile. 

 

1. That doesn't explain anything. He has the same role there as he does here. He's just doing it better. Yes he plays on a better team, but again he's playing more or less the exact same. You know he starts for the Heat as well, right? He's not some backup there. We didn't ask him to bring something that he wasn't capable of doing. 

2. What does him being a good rebounder have to do with him being bad on offense? He's third in rebounding on their team. I mean so what he had to rebound? Are you suggesting that mad him shoot 29% from 3? Again, he still has an incredibly similar role. Maybe he's more motivated there, I don't know. 

We weren't some trash team. We almost made the playoffs in the loaded west. I don't care about Jae's long term fit, but if he'd played better we'd have won several more games and certainly could have been in the playoffs. We also could have received more in the trade. Justise didn't have Miami in his bio either I don't believe. He also tweets about us all the time. I'm not sure why that matters. I've said Jae's leadership was important, I don't know why you are arguing that. 

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13 minutes ago, King Dork said:

All I’m sayin is dude’s a free agent, we could re-sign him...

 

I’d bring him and Solo back. 

Not sure we'll have that much roster space. I didn't like Solo at the time, but he was a nice vet to have. He's pretty versatile, and shot the 3 well. I think i disliked him so much because Jenkins was insistent on playing him and kyle together, but neither player was much of anything on offense, and was a bad fit overall. Assuming they aren't playing together, it could work. 

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17 minutes ago, King Dork said:

All I’m sayin is dude’s a free agent, we could re-sign him...

 

I’d bring him and Solo back. 

I would be on board with that.  He can basically fit in with any 8 man playoff rotation even if he doesn’t start.  

I would throw a decent amount of money at him.  He can start for us next year then come off the bench if we can get an upgrade at the 3.  Crowded/Winslow/Dillon would be one heck of a wing rotation in terms of size, toughness, rebounding, defense and intangibles.  All 3 are streaky but they are still solid scoring options.  

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30 minutes ago, FrenchGrizzlies said:
  1. If we can i will bring back Jae and Noah. 2 strongs personality and fighters, we are  short off. + 1 shooter and team will be great.

Might be better off drafting a shooter at 40.  I would actually like 2.  Could buy a second rounder cheap or even trade down.  Ironically the GOOD shooters are kicked late.  Then you have a bunch of dudes who can’t shoot slotted way high up in the lottery.  Go figure.  

I think Crowder might be one of the better free agents out there.  And he just worked well with a lot of our lineups.  He can play on the wing with either Dillon, Winslow or Grayson.  Or at the 4 with Jaren or Jonas.  

I also wouldn’t be surprised if Crowder turns into a solid small ball 5 option (similar to PJ Tucker but actually bigger).  

If we draft or sign a center in the off-season I would rather get a bouncy rim runner.

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geez we talk about how old JV is at 28, yet there are many that say Crowder and Tolliver are young 30 somethings and lets keep them or sign them...I like Tolliver, he can certainly still play, seems like a good character guy for the dressing room.  Not sure about Crowder, he is inconsistent and I don't think he wants to be part of a rebuild anywhere, miami is good spot for him

And for those that watched Raps Celts last night...Gasol is done.  He was stumbling, slow, ineffective and his D which was superior is now a liability....at a bargain rate of $26M...Raptors got fleeced, Grizzlies came out clear cut winner....he needs to retire before the next game.

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Jae is a better fit in MIA because he gets to play the 4.   That's the difference.  I wish him well and glad he had a stint as a Grizz.   Rather bring Solo back over him due to Solo being the better SF option and more than likely cheaper.  

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2 hours ago, Lugan Village said:

geez we talk about how old JV is at 28, yet there are many that say Crowder and Tolliver are young 30 somethings and lets keep them or sign them...I like Tolliver, he can certainly still play, seems like a good character guy for the dressing room.  Not sure about Crowder, he is inconsistent and I don't think he wants to be part of a rebuild anywhere, miami is good spot for him

And for those that watched Raps Celts last night...Gasol is done.  He was stumbling, slow, ineffective and his D which was superior is now a liability....at a bargain rate of $26M...Raptors got fleeced, Grizzlies came out clear cut winner....he needs to retire before the next game.

Gasol's defense is still far superior than JV, and pretty much any other big in the entire NBA. He's 14th in the entire NBA in defensive plus/minus, and when you take out players that have played 15 or less games, he's 7th. He also averages the same amount of blocks and steals per 36 as Giannis, the DPOY. He's 14th in defensive rating using the same criteria I used for plus/minus. He's elite defensively, there's really no two ways about it. He's always been stumbling and slow. That's nothing new. Obviously he's gotten slower, but it seemingly hasn't mattered that much. 

We might have won the trade I guess, maybe, but Toronto got a ring last year, and Gasol was a huge part of that. He held Embiid to 17.4 points per game in that series. Gasol has also been an important part of Toronto being the best defensive team this year as well. 

In that trade we got JV, which isn't totally an upgrade, but certainly fits better with our core. We got Delon, who we sign and traded, and Miles, who we traded. Also got a second round pick. I guess by trading Delon we got 2 more second round picks. Essentially we got JV and 3 seconds for Gasol. That's decent I guess. 

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17 hours ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

Look, I'm going to say 2 things about this:

  1. Everything that you are saying is explained by the fact that Jae is playing with better players in MIA and he gets more of an opportunity to do what he does. He couldn't do that here because we needed more out of his role. I don't know any other way to say that
  2. The fact that you admit that he was the second best rebounder but then try to give him a back handed compliment by saying he was only that because JJJ can't rebound, explains exactly what I am saying. He had to do more here. 

I don't care about how many 3's he took or that his usage rate is the same. I'm talking about the fact that we are talent deficient and the Heat are not. If we had 2 legit starting swingmen and Jae and Dillon came off of the bench, no one would care about their numbers. They were thrust into the starting lineup not because of their talent but due to the lack of overall talent on the Grizz. It's like you're trying to breakdown their stats to make a point. The bigger point is this was a bad team without much talent that was expected to go nowhere and then surprised the league. There's no use in breaking down stats because it's a talent deficient team and on those types of teams, you rely on people who aren't talented enough to do extra things, simple and plain. It's always been that way. 

I'm not worried about Jae's 3 pt shooting because we weren't going anywhere anyway and at most, he would only be here for 1 year. We're not talking about KD's impact on GS here you know. He did what he was supposed to do and I was happy he came here. It's not just his stats, it's his leadership, it's his toughness, it's his motivating other players but also, when Jae got traded here, the first thing he did on Twitter was switch his Twitter photo to a Grizz jersey and started talking about how happy he was to be in Memphis and his family ain't that far away.........Winslow was traded to the Grizz on Feb 6th and ain't once mentioned us or the city in his profile. 

 

the bolded is a blatant lie.  since the moment he was traded, he's constantly posted positively about the city and the team on his social media

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4 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Jae is a better fit in MIA because he gets to play the 4.   That's the difference.  I wish him well and glad he had a stint as a Grizz.   Rather bring Solo back over him due to Solo being the better SF option and more than likely cheaper.  

100% agreed on both.  jae is much more effective at the 4 and would be poorly suited to bring back to memphis if you expect him to compete for the 3.  the team SF should be winslow and dillon w/ allen and melton (or someone bigger/better shooting than melton).  Solo would be a great veteran presence at the 3 if brought back and could play behind winslow w/ then allen and dillon at the 2.

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33 minutes ago, grizz09 said:

the bolded is a blatant lie.  since the moment he was traded, he's constantly posted positively about the city and the team on his social media

I said his profile, not in his posts. Learn how to read and comprehend before saying that I posted a blatant lie.

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23 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

I said his profile, not in his posts. Learn how to read and comprehend before saying that I posted a blatant lie.

i don't want to curse here, so I'll say forget you instead of the more appropriate 4 letter word.   his instagram pic is him, ja, and JJJ in the vancouver jerseys.  included in his bio on instagram is "memphis grizzlies" and "I am a man".  who cares about what's on his twitter profile when he has endless twitter examples below just in the first week+ post-trade.   you also said jae posted alot positively about the city.  that's more important than what's in a profile.

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, grizz09 said:

i don't want to curse here, so I'll say forget you instead of the more appropriate 4 letter word.   his instagram pic is him, ja, and JJJ in the vancouver jerseys.  included in his bio on instagram is "memphis grizzlies" and "I am a man".  who cares about what's on his twitter profile when he has endless twitter examples below just in the first week+ post-trade.   you also said jae posted alot positively about the city.  that's more important than what's in a profile.

 

 

 

You clearly don't understand and I'm not going back and forth with you. Simple and plain. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

You clearly don't understand and I'm not going back and forth with you. Simple and plain. 

 

 

I do understand, but your point was a very stupid one given how much dude has repped HARD for memphis since being traded.  adios

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18 hours ago, Rdk4121 said:

1. That doesn't explain anything. He has the same role there as he does here. He's just doing it better. Yes he plays on a better team, but again he's playing more or less the exact same. You know he starts for the Heat as well, right? He's not some backup there. We didn't ask him to bring something that he wasn't capable of doing. 

2. What does him being a good rebounder have to do with him being bad on offense? He's third in rebounding on their team. I mean so what he had to rebound? Are you suggesting that mad him shoot 29% from 3? Again, he still has an incredibly similar role. Maybe he's more motivated there, I don't know. 

We weren't some trash team. We almost made the playoffs in the loaded west. I don't care about Jae's long term fit, but if he'd played better we'd have won several more games and certainly could have been in the playoffs. We also could have received more in the trade. Justise didn't have Miami in his bio either I don't believe. He also tweets about us all the time. I'm not sure why that matters. I've said Jae's leadership was important, I don't know why you are arguing that. 

We'll just ave to agree to disagree. Crowder came in to provide leadership on a short term basis for a team that was rebuilding and was expected to be at the bottom on the Western Conference. If you don't agree with that, I'm not really sure what to say. Not everyone can be a 40% 3 pt shooter. If he avg 2 ppg on 15% shooting for 40 mpg, yes, I would say he was awful. He provided many intangibles and was a major part of our exceeding expectations but the reality is, we were only in this position because other teams had injuries. Barring injury, all 8 teams ahead of us will be ahead of us next, GS will definitely be ahead of us and there's a chance NOLA will as well. This year was a lucky year for us but we are 2 years away from competing. 

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