Rdk4121

Grizzles Trade Targets

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19 minutes ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

Also, remember when you take on money it's not just the contract you have to live with, it's all the deals you CAN'T make because of it.

True. And shows how Pat Riley smoked Kleiman on the Justise trade. We took back $40M in contract for the upcoming season.  The opportunity cost for us is huge. 

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31 minutes ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

you think you're more likely to get the steal of the draft or tony wroten?

I mean the likelihood is we get a role player. Just looking at the last few years, we're more likely to get a rotational player than a bust. I don't expect to get a Brandon Clarke every year at 21, but there is certainly value to be had there. 

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2 hours ago, Rdk4121 said:

That's a lie straight up. 

I'm going to drop that down just from 20th to 30th, but in that you got Matisse Thybulle, Brandon, Grant Williams, Darius Bazley, Nassir Little kind of fell out of the rotation late, Kevin Porter, Jordan Poole, Keldon Johnson cracked the rotation in the last 15 games and played pretty well, and Dylan Windler most certainly would've been in the rotation if not for injuries. That's 6 definite rotation players, 2 kind of rotational players, and 2 non rotation players (and Ty Jerome even played in 31 games). So that's 60-80%. In 2018 you had a similar rate, 80% are firmly in the rotation, 1 is somewhat in the rotation, one is bad. 2017 is pretty much the exact same as well. 2016 was worse, but you still had LeVert, Siakam, Korkmaz, and Dejounte Murray. 

Even in the second round last year you had plenty of intriguing or rotational guys like Paschall, Carsen Edwards, Cody Martin, Daniel Gafford, Bol Bol, Talen Horton-Tucker, Jalen McDaniels, Terance Mann, Nicolas Claxton, and of course some undrafted guys as well. 

Didn't count Thybulle because you said late 1st round. If you divide the first round into three sections, early, middle, and late, then late would be 21-30 (3 ten selection sections). But you want to cheat and include Thybulle, then fine, I'll count him. I clearly missed Keldon Johnson, but he definitely qualifies. As far as the rest, I thought we were talking about guys who deserved to be in a rotation as a career, not guys just getting run. My bad.

Grant Williams PER 7.91, Darius Bazley PER 9.64, Nassir Little PER 9.64, Kevin Porter 10.82, Jordan Poole PER 7.25, Keldon Johnson PER  19.15, Windler didn't even play a game.

I'm not even going through all your second round picks. You can love the scrubs. I don't. These guys have not shown the ability to be contributors on winning teams. (Also a math lesson for the future: you said 60-80% based on either 6 to 8 guys, but you expanded it to pick 20. So that's 11 picks, not 10. So your range, which I still disagree with, is 54.5% to 72.7%)

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32 minutes ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

Also, remember when you take on money it's not just the contract you have to live with, it's all the deals you CAN'T make because of it.

You have a point there, and as J Crew said, we do lose some flexibility from that Justise trade, though to be fair it gave us trade chips that we can use in another trade. The biggest mistake to me was getting rid of Waiters for nothing. He could've been useful for us, and as a trade piece. 

The biggest part of the deal I proposed is getting back Richardson. He's a legit starting 2 guard in this league, something we don't currently have. I think Horford as a backup would be nice to have, plus having another vet that's been in big games certainly wouldn't hurt.

If we wanted to, we could just move JV and get some expiring contract back and another pick of some sort. Like the Hornets desperately need a C with a pulse and have a lot of cap space or could just trade us Cody Zeller who is on an expiring. Moving off Kyle and JV saves us 25-26 million, which just so happens to be what Horford makes, and we get a picks and Richardson to go with it while still retaining flexibility. We'd still go into next offseason with 30 million in cap space.

*Though if we're going to involve the Hornets we could just dump Dieng for a future second to them, and acquire Richardson either into our cap space, send Marko and a second, or send Grayson. I guess the thing is would we prefer JV over Horford. Horford is better at spreading the floor, passing, and defense. JV is a better scorer and rebounder.

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32 minutes ago, lsugrizzfan said:

Didn't count Thybulle because you said late 1st round. If you divide the first round into three sections, early, middle, and late, then late would be 21-30 (3 ten selection sections). But you want to cheat and include Thybulle, then fine, I'll count him. I clearly missed Keldon Johnson, but he definitely qualifies. As far as the rest, I thought we were talking about guys who deserved to be in a rotation as a career, not guys just getting run. My bad.

Grant Williams PER 7.91, Darius Bazley PER 9.64, Nassir Little PER 9.64, Kevin Porter 10.82, Jordan Poole PER 7.25, Keldon Johnson PER  19.15, Windler didn't even play a game.

I'm not even going through all your second round picks. You can love the scrubs. I don't. These guys have not shown the ability to be contributors on winning teams. (Also a math lesson for the future: you said 60-80% based on either 6 to 8 guys, but you expanded it to pick 20. So that's 11 picks, not 10. So your range, which I still disagree with, is 54.5% to 72.7%)

I didn't say they we're good, just said they were rotational players. Part of being a "quality" player is subjective. Dillon puts up numbers, but advanced stats says he sucks, yet he gets a long term, high money deal. 

I guess you are right with the 21-30 aspect to be fair. But Grant was closing games out in the Eastern finals, Bazley played in playoff games, Porter had some really good showings. Windler lit up the summer league and I think he'll be really good. Of that group, Poole is the only one that sucks and might not be in the rotation next year, but the fact remains he was in the rotation this last year. Those 4 and Keldon make 50%, and two arguable ones in Little and Poole would make 70%. Even still 50-70% for several years is far better than 20-25%. 

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2 hours ago, lsugrizzfan said:

Didn't count Thybulle because you said late 1st round. If you divide the first round into three sections, early, middle, and late, then late would be 21-30 (3 ten selection sections). But you want to cheat and include Thybulle, then fine, I'll count him. I clearly missed Keldon Johnson, but he definitely qualifies. As far as the rest, I thought we were talking about guys who deserved to be in a rotation as a career, not guys just getting run. My bad.

Grant Williams PER 7.91, Darius Bazley PER 9.64, Nassir Little PER 9.64, Kevin Porter 10.82, Jordan Poole PER 7.25, Keldon Johnson PER  19.15, Windler didn't even play a game.

I'm not even going through all your second round picks. You can love the scrubs. I don't. These guys have not shown the ability to be contributors on winning teams. (Also a math lesson for the future: you said 60-80% based on either 6 to 8 guys, but you expanded it to pick 20. So that's 11 picks, not 10. So your range, which I still disagree with, is 54.5% to 72.7%)

I think you are being a little narrowed minded just looking at PER.  Especially for a late first and some of them are like 19 or 20.  No they aren't finished products but guys like Bazley, Porter, Williams showed big upside.  Players that young in the late first aren't going to come out the gate swinging, especially on good established playoff teams a lot of the time where you have to fight for minutes.   So their PER for the whole  year shouldn't be given some leeway.  Guys like Clarke and Paschall are a bit older and should be more advanced. 

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I think you need to look a few years back for the 21-30 slots. Guys like Grant Williams and Nassir Little were pretty bad this year, are not rotation players, but they got playing time as rookies because teams want to see what they have, and rookies are cheap labor. We gave Jordan Adams and Jarrell Martin and Wade Baldwin PT as rookies too. But it became clear pretty quickly there was no way they were getting rookie extensions. I think Williams and Little will be in the same boat with Boston and Portland pretty soon, they aren't good. 

Win Shares is a good way to look. 

Here's the '16 draft #'s 21-30. DeAndre' Bembry, Malachi Richardson, Ante Zizi, Timothe Luwawu, Brice Johnshon, Furkan Korkmaz, Pascal Siakam, Skal Labissiere, Dejounte Murray and Damian Jones.  So one quality starter - Siakam with 20.9 WS. No one else over 6 WS - next highest was Murray at 5.8 WS. A lot of washouts, maybe 6 or 7? Luwawu was waived and later re-signed by Brooklyn last season, maybe he gets a contract this off season, who knows?

Here is the '17 draft. Terrance Ferguson, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Tyler Loudon, Anzejs Paceknics, Caleb Swanigan, Kyle Kuzma, Tony Bradley, Derrick White, Josh Hart. So no star starters, 5 washouts, two, maybe 3 starters if you still count Derrick White. Jarrott Allen ended up the season backing up DJ with the Nets, and 3 rotation guys?  So '17 better than '16, but Siakam in '16 the best player. Still only 2 guys over 10 in Win Share, Allen and Anunoby. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The J Crew said:

I think you need to look a few years back for the 21-30 slots. Guys like Grant Williams and Nassir Little were pretty bad this year, are not rotation players, but they got playing time as rookies because teams want to see what they have, and rookies are cheap labor. We gave Jordan Adams and Jarrell Martin and Wade Baldwin PT as rookies too. But it became clear pretty quickly there was no way they were getting rookie extensions. I think Williams and Little will be in the same boat with Boston and Portland pretty soon, they aren't good. 

Win Shares is a good way to look. 

Here's the '16 draft #'s 21-30. DeAndre' Bembry, Malachi Richardson, Ante Zizi, Timothe Luwawu, Brice Johnshon, Furkan Korkmaz, Pascal Siakam, Skal Labissiere, Dejounte Murray and Damian Jones.  So one quality starter - Siakam with 20.9 WS. No one else over 6 WS - next highest was Murray at 5.8 WS. A lot of washouts, maybe 6 or 7? Luwawu was waived and later re-signed by Brooklyn last season, maybe he gets a contract this off season, who knows?

Here is the '17 draft. Terrance Ferguson, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Tyler Loudon, Anzejs Paceknics, Caleb Swanigan, Kyle Kuzma, Tony Bradley, Derrick White, Josh Hart. So no star starters, 5 washouts, two, maybe 3 starters if you still count Derrick White. Jarrott Allen ended up the season backing up DJ with the Nets, and 3 rotation guys?  So '17 better than '16, but Siakam in '16 the best player. Still only 2 guys over 10 in Win Share, Allen and Anunoby. 

 

 

Grant is certainly a rotational player, not sure how that is a question. He played in every single playoff game, and closed out at least a few games. His impact is far beyond the box score. He was elite defensively in the playoffs as well. His offense isn't great yet, but it will get there. He was a low post guy and number 1 option in college, so he's adjusting to life as a 5th option. He'll have a bigger role next year. 

Little didn't make the rotation in the playoffs on the other hand. He might become one, but he's been a disappointment in college and in the NBA so far. He still played in a lot of games this year.

There's 7 rotational players from that 2017 class with Ferguson (who got worse but plays a lot), OG, Allen (who should be starting), Kuzma, White, Hart, and Bradley (I'm counting Bradley, he's a backup C to one of the better Cs in the game but he's still decent). 2018 has 7 or 8 rotational guys as well. Even if 2017 has only 3 starters and 3 rotation players, you said only 20-25% would even be rotation players in the late first. I'm saying it's at least double that, 50% usually are at least a rotation guy. That's not a bad hit rate at all imo.

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Its better than 50 % from anything ive ever read , winshares , per or mins / games or any metric. If you think that way to high then thats you ignoring past drafts and trying to focus on bad years or changing what rotation player means.

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On a similar vein of that topic

"The Celtics own three first-round picks in the November draft and they’ll be looking to deal, according to Eric Pincus of Bleacher Report. Boston simply doesn’t have the roster space to absorb and develop three rookies and if the Celtics can’t trade one or more of those picks, they’ll look into draft-and-stash options."
 

I mentioned this earlier. They don't want that many young players. We could easily acquire one of those late picks. I mean it could be as simple as #40 and cash for #30 or #26.  

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1 hour ago, Rdk4121 said:

Grant is certainly a rotational player, not sure how that is a question. He played in every single playoff game, and closed out at least a few games. His impact is far beyond the box score. He was elite defensively in the playoffs as well. His offense isn't great yet, but it will get there. He was a low post guy and number 1 option in college, so he's adjusting to life as a 5th option. He'll have a bigger role next year. 

 

Here are Grant Williams playing time numbers the 1st 6 games of the bubble - 4, 7, 3, 6, 9 and 0 - a DNP-CD. When Boston started resting starters the last 2 bubble games, he played 19 and 24 minutes in games 7 & 8. No starters played in game 8, and GW still didn't start.

Here's a Boston Globe article from July 29th:  https://www.newsbreak.com/news/1608121179229/observations-from-celtics-final-scrimmage-starters-sit-grant-williams-is-a-rotation-player  "Boston’s regular rotation players sat out to rest. Carsen Edwards had 19 points and Grant Williams added 14 points and 9 rebounds . . ."

An NBC Sports Boston article titled "Can Grant Williams shoot well enough to earn playing time?" from July 27th:  https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/can-grant-williams-shoot-well-enough-earn-playing-time-celtics  "Williams’ defensive versatility . . . gives him a chance to crack Boston’s rotation at the NBA restart."

So I guess the question is, if Grant Williams was already in the Boston rotation, why were Boston beat writers writing about Grant Williams having a "chance to crack Boston's rotation"? 

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13 minutes ago, The J Crew said:

Here are Grant Williams playing time numbers the 1st 6 games of the bubble - 4, 7, 3, 6, 9 and 0 - a DNP-CD. When Boston started resting starters the last 2 bubble games, he played 19 and 24 minutes in games 7 & 8. No starters played in game 8, and GW still didn't start.

Here's a Boston Globe article from July 29th:  https://www.newsbreak.com/news/1608121179229/observations-from-celtics-final-scrimmage-starters-sit-grant-williams-is-a-rotation-player  "Boston’s regular rotation players sat out to rest. Carsen Edwards had 19 points and Grant Williams added 14 points and 9 rebounds . . ."

An NBC Sports Boston article titled "Can Grant Williams shoot well enough to earn playing time?" from July 27th:  https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/can-grant-williams-shoot-well-enough-earn-playing-time-celtics  "Williams’ defensive versatility . . . gives him a chance to crack Boston’s rotation at the NBA restart."

So I guess the question is, if Grant Williams was already in the Boston rotation, why were Boston beat writers writing about Grant Williams having a "chance to crack Boston's rotation"? 

I mean I guess he cracked the rotation in the playoffs then huh, given he played in every game? Also, we were their 7th game in the bubble, and they played their starters fairly big minutes given the game didn't really matter. Tatum, Hayward, Brown, Smart, and Walker all played over 28 minutes. He played because Theis had a bad game. I'm not suggesting he had some major role, but when rotations get shortened/more minutes for starters, he still played in every game (though in 2 games it was just garbage time). Similar thing with Semi Ojeleye, he was most certainly in the rotation but barely played in the playoffs. That's pretty normal.  Also, in that first article you posted it literally says "Grant Williams is a rotation player"

"The most promising Celtics rookie in 2019-20, Williams ended the season playing meaningful minutes in crunch time of playoff games.

If Williams can continue to improve his outside shot -- he hit 58.8 percent of his 3-pointers in the postseason after connecting on just 25 percent in the regular season -- he'll be an important cog in Boston's frontcourt rotation next season." - from NBCSports

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Not gonna keep going back and forth with you. And no, just because GW averaged 10 minutes pg during the playoffs doesn't mean he's a rotation player.  Marko Guduric averaged 11 minutes pg for us. Was Marko a rotation player?  Williams averaged 2.8 points pg during the playoffs, and somehow you seem to think that's a good thing.  Williams is a way undersized power forward, 6' 5 and 3/4" without shoes, who can't shoot.

Celtics fans know he's not a player, and know the Celts blew the '19 draft. They could have stayed at 20 and taken Thybulle. Tyler Hero went 13, and they got stuck with Romeo Langford at 14. Here's one scout's opinion from May:  https://nesn.com/2020/05/awful-2019-draft-class-why-nba-scout-thinks-celtics-rookies-stink/  "

“I think they stink,” the scout said, according to Smith. “Well, that’s a little harsh. I mean they’re fine, but there isn’t anyone special in the whole bunch.

“(Grant) Williams is a backup role player for his whole career. That’s fine, but whatever. The Indiana kid (Romeo Langford) can’t shoot. How can you be a shooting guard if you can’t shoot? Carsen Edwards will be a G-League All-Star for years."

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1 hour ago, The J Crew said:

Not gonna keep going back and forth with you. And no, just because GW averaged 10 minutes pg during the playoffs doesn't mean he's a rotation player.  Marko Guduric averaged 11 minutes pg for us. Was Marko a rotation player?  Williams averaged 2.8 points pg during the playoffs, and somehow you seem to think that's a good thing.  Williams is a way undersized power forward, 6' 5 and 3/4" without shoes, who can't shoot.

Celtics fans know he's not a player, and know the Celts blew the '19 draft. They could have stayed at 20 and taken Thybulle. Tyler Hero went 13, and they got stuck with Romeo Langford at 14. Here's one scout's opinion from May:  https://nesn.com/2020/05/awful-2019-draft-class-why-nba-scout-thinks-celtics-rookies-stink/  "

“I think they stink,” the scout said, according to Smith. “Well, that’s a little harsh. I mean they’re fine, but there isn’t anyone special in the whole bunch.

“(Grant) Williams is a backup role player for his whole career. That’s fine, but whatever. The Indiana kid (Romeo Langford) can’t shoot. How can you be a shooting guard if you can’t shoot? Carsen Edwards will be a G-League All-Star for years."

Marko was a rotation player, until he wasn't. We realized he was trash and he promptly never played again. Took us longer than it should, but yeah. Celtics seem to think enough of Grant to play him in the most important games of the year. When did I say 3 PPG was good? You always do this with putting words in my mouth and trolling.

"His offense isn't great yet, but it will get there. He was a low post guy and number 1 option in college, so he's adjusting to life as a 5th option. He'll have a bigger role next year." That's what I said, but you have to make stuff up continually. 

Grant is incredibly strong, he's very similar to PJ Tucker who is even shorter than he is. Fans on twitter during the playoffs were raving about him. They could have taken Thybulle at 14 instead of Langford, but they went "upside." Don't really care, he's not on my team. 

The players seem to like what he brings, I'll take their opinion over anyone unnamed scout. 

"Williams generated two rebounds and a steal over seven fourth-quarter minutes in Friday's 92-87 Game 7 win over the Raptors.

Forget the box score stats when it comes to Williams in Game 7. When Daniel Theis fouled out, the rookie provided vital defense in the closing minutes of the victory. Yes, he missed two needed foul shots. Per Kemba Walker, "Grant saved me" when Walker bounced a desperate in-the-key bounce pass to Williams on Boston's second-to-last possession. Williams fought off Kyle Lowry for the ball and drew the foul that led to missed free throws, while teammate Jason Tatum fought for the second miss. Boston was still up three, though, and it was Williams who prevented Fred VanVleet from hitting a three that would have sent the game to overtime. As Marcus Smart said, "He's not even a rookie anymore, the way he plays."

I'm not pretending he's some amazing player, but he's certainly a rotational player for them, and he's far better than any of the other rookies they had. 

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I wish we could get someone decent in a trade who would want to stay here 

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I mean it's interesting anytime a perennial all-nba player comes up, but given the decade + age difference and how ball dominant Harden is and the awkward fit with Ja I wouldn't be pulling that trigger.

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14 hours ago, I❤️JV said:

JV+Dieng+Kyle+Marco+3 1st rounders +3 2nd rounders...for James Harden.

I want to hate it but you need stars to contend ,  if we want to contend right now this is one way to do it . Id still rather hang onto those picks and let this roster develop another year /see how we look at the deadline.

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17 hours ago, I❤️JV said:

JV+Dieng+Kyle+Marco+3 1st rounders +3 2nd rounders...for James Harden.

The one we should go after in Houston is Robert Covington, SlowMo + Guduric + 1st for Covington would be great for us. 

I want us to draft Jay Scrubb, so no need for James Harden here.😅😃

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22 hours ago, grizzgolf said:

I wish we could get someone decent in a trade who would want to stay here 

winning should slove  that problem

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11 hours ago, I❤️JV said:

Lakers receive- Jonas Valanciunas, #40 overall

Memphis receives- Danny Green, #28 overall, 2025 1st round pick unprotected

make that trade then the strong become stronger and the memphis grizzlies become weaker 

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15 hours ago, I❤️JV said:

Lakers receive- Jonas Valanciunas, #40 overall

Memphis receives- Danny Green, #28 overall, 2025 1st round pick unprotected

Lakers can't trade a first until 2027.

But why are you, the I love JV guy, proposing JV trades?  Is this some kind of jedi mind trick to flesh out the JV haters?

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