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On 7/29/2020 at 7:30 AM, Grizzfan7979 said:

people on draft night thought he'd be a 40% high volume 3 point shooter?

 

He's the opposite of what he was billed. He was supposed to be this amazing defensive specimen and maybe his offense would develop and instead he's this amazing pick and pop and even low post offensive player who can't stop fouling or play fundamental defense

You mean to tell me that Chris Wallace didn't know what the type of player he was actually drafting? I"m shocked.  

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Despite his fouls he still makes tons of defensive plays. He's 10th in blocks per game, and i know he gets a healthy amount of steals and deflections for his position. Plus he has the ability to switch out on guards and play pretty well in space for his size. 

It is certainly a mental thing for him, and partially because he is still growing into his body physically and mentally. It's like he doesn't know how big he is. He gets to many fouls just trying to post up on offense, or when contesting 3s on defense. Those should never happen, and should be the easiest thing he can fix. The next thing is just keeping his hands up. Good players are able to abuse that. That one is going to be harder to fix. 

There's always going to be an acceptable threshold of fouling, particularly for a rim protector. 

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6 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

Despite his fouls he still makes tons of defensive plays. He's 10th in blocks per game, and i know he gets a healthy amount of steals and deflections for his position. Plus he has the ability to switch out on guards and play pretty well in space for his size. 

It is certainly a mental thing for him, and partially because he is still growing into his body physically and mentally. It's like he doesn't know how big he is. He gets to many fouls just trying to post up on offense, or when contesting 3s on defense. Those should never happen, and should be the easiest thing he can fix. The next thing is just keeping his hands up. Good players are able to abuse that. That one is going to be harder to fix. 

There's always going to be an acceptable threshold of fouling, particularly for a rim protector. 

True. On all those points.  Although maybe he should play less aggressive defense and stop trying to block everything.  Going to a Shane Battier defensive boot camp (that needs to be a thing) should be job number one for Jaren this offseason. 

Same thing in college.  All that good defensive stuff but lots of foul trouble.  Which made his defensive stuff a bit overrated.

He needs better defensive fundamentals.

THAT guy with his 3 point shooting prowess (and with high volume) is a very rare skill set.  Then he can stay on the floor, run tons of pick and pops and go 4-10 on 3’s every night.  With improvements on defense with would allow him to stay on the floor more and ramp up his 3 point attempts will be great for our team long term and should help Jaren make some All Star teams in the future.

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3 hours ago, chipc3 said:

You mean to tell me that Chris Wallace didn't know what the type of player he was actually drafting? I"m shocked.  

I was more down on the guy than anyone but was still very encouraged by his 3 point shooting. Still am. Before the year I wanted him to take 8 three pointers per game.  He was at 6 this season.  He might get that to 9 or 10 some day.  Defense has changed so maybe he needs to get back to the fundamentals.  Can’t breathe on guys now — and nobody is blocking 5 shots a night anymore.  It keeps trying to be Dikembe or a big man version of Tony Allen then he is gonna foul out in 15 minutes every night. He needs to back off a bit. Think Shane Battier-type defense.

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30 minutes ago, ALT GRIND said:

 Can’t breathe on guys now — and nobody is blocking 5 shots a night anymore.  It keeps trying to be Dikembe or a big man version of Tony Allen then he is gonna foul out in 15 minutes every night. He needs to back off a bit. Think Shane Battier-type defense.

That's my thing. Harden can snap his neck backwards 50 times a game trying to bait calls and only gets rewarded for it, but defense is now "i don't care if he kicked his leg at you, you fouled him!" 

It honestly is really frustrating to watch sometimes. Completely kills the game flow when you get the Hardens and Chris Pauls of the world doing everything they can to get to the line instead of just play basketball. 

Not trying to give Jaren a pass, because he does really dumb stuff... but the amount of bs calls per game i see makes me insane

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I'd feel a lot better if his fouls were at least coming from challenging players at the rim, actually fighting for a rebound inside or making a decisive move on offense. But it certainly feels like he gets so many ticky-tack fouls when he loses his dribble, awkwardly bumps into someone on the perimeter or there's a loose ball that it compounds the frustration b/c it just makes you think what he could look like eliminating those 1-3 fouls a game.

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On 7/29/2020 at 5:04 PM, ALT GRIND said:

I want a bit more quickness and floor spacing in the starting five.  Playing Jaren at the 5 and running tons of high pick and pops would do that.  A high pick and pop will get Jaren some great looks from 3 AND help Ja get a downhill running start to the basket.  Clarke can be a baseline lob threat with Kyle and Dillon on the wings as spot-up threats.  What we lack in size on defense guarding the 4/5 spots we can hopefully make up on speed, athleticism and shooting/scoring.  

If we play the Lakers and they bring Dwight Howard off the bench then I like that matchup for Jonas.  Melton would also matchup with their wacky bench guards like JR Smith and Dion Waiters.

Another thing: Brandon Clarke is basically a tweener on both sides of the ball.  Not big enough to guard true bigs and not agile enough to guard wings.  And he has a mediocre wing span even for a 2/3.  Basically, we don’t really have anyone who can guard Anthony Davis.  Or a Giannis type.  But that being said I really don’t want to draft another power forward for the 3rd year in a row (and like 5 of the past 6 or 7 years).  

Fortunately it looks like we are set on the wing with Dillon/Kyle and obviously at point guard with Ja (and Melton as a great backup).  When Tyus gets back maybe he should be our third stringer....  

Anthony Tolliver could end up being our X factor/8th man.

You've given this some good perspective.  a few added thoughts are ... Portland is not anywhere an upper tier team, and yet we managed to lose one that we should have won.  Carmelo delivered and down the stretch we just didnt play smart ball.  But he wasn't the only one for Portland that knew how to turn this into a W.  Although the refs were awful, and it disrupted the schemes and matchups for both...but we had more significantly more FT's.  We didnt play 60.  Id rather see Brandon overacheive at the 6 position, against Portland he shined.  But not sustainable against better players.  I maintain that JV playing 25-30 in the first rotation adds a lot of physicality that we missed today.  One game isn't a trend, let's go back to our game and our rhythm...I hate to say anytime the next game is a must win...but its pretty important..remember this year is not the year...but lets get all we can from this ride and benefit from the experience...just win.

 

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5 hours ago, Lugan Village said:

You've given this some good perspective.  a few added thoughts are ... Portland is not anywhere an upper tier team, and yet we managed to lose one that we should have won.  Carmelo delivered and down the stretch we just didnt play smart ball.  But he wasn't the only one for Portland that knew how to turn this into a W.  Although the refs were awful, and it disrupted the schemes and matchups for both...but we had more significantly more FT's.  We didnt play 60.  Id rather see Brandon overacheive at the 6 position, against Portland he shined.  But not sustainable against better players.  I maintain that JV playing 25-30 in the first rotation adds a lot of physicality that we missed today.  One game isn't a trend, let's go back to our game and our rhythm...I hate to say anytime the next game is a must win...but its pretty important..remember this year is not the year...but lets get all we can from this ride and benefit from the experience...just win.

 

Ja probably should have taken more shots early. Jaren should have probably taken more shots late.  Dillon should have just taken fewer shots.  Coach subbing out the young guns late in the second quarter killed the momentum and gave Portland some life/hope.  We could have stomped on their throats.  Or was that the end of the third?  The game was a blur.  High highs and low lows.  ... Ja lacked poise down the stretch.  Not just slipping late in the fourth but some tunnel vision in OT (and kicked the ball out of bounds).  Ja was probably tired and mentally drained.   

If Jaren needs a sky hook to round out his offensive tool kit to go with the 3’s and quick post ups then Ja needs a killer mid-range game a la Jordan and Kobe — that would set up his drives, open up the offense for our other weapons and buy Ja some time to become a volume 3 point shooter down the road (if that’s what we need).  

Ja and Jaren are fun to watch when they get going and we have some good supporting pieces but our starting five lineup might be sub-optimal especially when Dillon and Kyle’s shots aren’t falling.  

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JV and 13 get their money early in the first quarter .

JV was going strong 

13 had 11 pts first (early 2nd?)

I keep reading people saying bring JV off the bench - nope JV is not the problem.

13 gets active really early too ... I don’t know if it’s because he’s trying to eat before the fouls start piling up or what.

Dillon is our trick or treat guy... he’s just more trick... when he’s off his shot isn’t falling and he’s getting beat on d you’ve got to sit him.

When slo mo is off he knows and gets his on ball movement and defense.

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6 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

JV and 13 get their money early in the first quarter .

JV was going strong 

13 had 11 pts first (early 2nd?)

I keep reading people saying bring JV off the bench - nope JV is not the problem.

13 gets active really early too ... I don’t know if it’s because he’s trying to eat before the fouls start piling up or what.

Dillon is our trick or treat guy... he’s just more trick... when he’s off his shot isn’t falling and he’s getting beat on d you’ve got to sit him.

When slo mo is off he knows and gets his on ball movement and defense.

Sometimes I get really nervous when Dillon has the ball. Dude wants to get those buckets

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On 7/29/2020 at 8:30 AM, chipc3 said:

The playoffs are 8 games away. The team needs to think about that and not how young Jaren is. 

You sound ridiculous again. Develop is still this seasons goal. Playoffs are the cherry on top. Long view man

Did you see him against the Blazers? He’s already a beast at 20. He has a chance to be one of the best players in the league 

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2 hours ago, Allen said:

You sound ridiculous again. Develop is still this seasons goal. Playoffs are the cherry on top. Long view man

Did you see him against the Blazers? He’s already a beast at 20. He has a chance to be one of the best players in the league 

dude takes every chance he can to jab at the kid

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Is the kid beyond reproach? 

He is not a complete product, yes he has room to grow. 

Why is it wrong to point out his current weaknesses and areas that need improvement? 

Is this a blind cult following? 

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1 hour ago, Teddy.B said:

Is the kid beyond reproach? 

He is not a complete product, yes he has room to grow. 

Why is it wrong to point out his current weaknesses and areas that need improvement? 

Is this a blind cult following? 

Because it’s an obvious reason thing to say. Of course the 20 year old 2nd year player has room to improve 

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3 hours ago, Teddy.B said:

Is the kid beyond reproach? 

He is not a complete product, yes he has room to grow. 

Why is it wrong to point out his current weaknesses and areas that need improvement? 

Is this a blind cult following? 

His strengths (3 point shooting) translate NOW.  I don't think anyone is telling him to break out his Euro Step/Fargo Step in the Bubble.  haha.  Or, even a sky hook.  I think most are just telling him to shoot 3's and try to stay out of foul trouble.  The first skill is in his wheel house.  Fouls are something he has a problem with -- maybe we should just retrain him for defense and change our overall defensive philosophy. 

He's basically a worse rebounding Reggie Miller, but that is just what we need right now.

The rest of his game can be criticized -- fairly.  

This week I went through the old 2018 NBA Draft thread -- all 156 pages.  Lots of these points were brought up then (about Jaren) even BEFORE the draft.  Still young, I guess, still similar problems ALTHOUGH his 3 point shooting upside has turned into MEGA HIGH VOLUME 3 point sniper upside/potential/realization.

His "weaknesses" are on him and need to be addressed in the off-season.

Before the Bubble, I thought that Jaren's goal should be to go 5-15 on 3's.  Well, he heard the first part, made 5 -- only taking 11.  Good for him.  I think he is Option 1a for us and a critical factor for us is running TONS of high pick and pops to get Jaren open for 3 point shots that he can step into and ALSO getting Ja Morant a full head of steam going to the basket.  

So, Jaren is mostly one dimensional on offense (big strengths), maybe overrated on defense but solid all-around.  His shooting opens up the rest of his floor game (drives, dunks).  I also think that he presses on defense if his shots aren't falling.  Basically, his offense leads his defense.  

A high pick and pop with Clarke on the baseline as the lob threat should be our bread and butter.  The rest of the guys (including Jonas) are secondary, with most of the rest needing to just stand around to hit open 3's (along with hustle/defense/rebounding/passing).

We need to figure out how to optimize our main bigs (Jaren/Jonas/Clarke).  Ideally, we can play all 3 (in spurts) depending on match-ups.  I like Clarke at the 3 because he has the size/length of a small forward.  His wingspan would be fairly mediocre for a 2 GUARD.

If we can't do that, then we need to play Jonas off the bench more.  Get out and pick/pop with Ja/Jaren and get out and run.  That also plays to Brandon Clarke's strengths.  

Either way, I think we need to focus on finding role players who are better fits.  Through the draft but also free agency and trades.

Melton/Dillon/Kyle are good, but more like "high level bench guys".

Now, back to the game.

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7 hours ago, Allen said:

You sound ridiculous again. Develop is still this seasons goal. Playoffs are the cherry on top. Long view man

Did you see him against the Blazers? He’s already a beast at 20. He has a chance to be one of the best players in the league 

Check out when I wrote that and look back at what was being discussed. 

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