Sign in to follow this  
GoGrizz!

Why the trade with Miami is a bad trade.

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

In a trade in the offseason. We would have had over $50 mil in cap space due to the expiring contracts of Iggy, Crorder, Hill and others  and we could have sent some draft picks and a trade exception. We would have absorbed his contract in a tarde. Iggy has nothing to do with this. His contract would have expired by this summer. I'm not saying sign him this summer, i'm saying we could have traded cap space for him. 

So you are fine with trading assets for the future but not Jae Crowder LoL  gotcha. Also Dieng is the perfect backup big to alleviate pressure from Jonas and BC on the second unit. He is solid defender, good rebounder and provides floor spacing. He likely is not available this summer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

If that's the league average for efg, then maybe that number needs to be reevaluated for worth. Lebron James, the goat of the league only sports a .541 for his career and he was below that number for his first 4 years and he was only barely above it his 5th year, .531. In that light, .497 isn't really that bad.

Different circumstances. When Lebron entered the league, league average was in the 47s. He’s always been better that the league. Context matters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

In a trade in the offseason. We would have had over $50 mil in cap space due to the expiring contracts of Iggy, Crorder, Hill and others  and we could have sent some draft picks and a trade exception. We would have absorbed his contract in a tarde. Iggy has nothing to do with this. His contract would have expired by this summer. I'm not saying sign him this summer, i'm saying we could have traded cap space for him. 

Why would Miami do that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

In a trade in the offseason. We would have had over $50 mil in cap space due to the expiring contracts of Iggy, Crorder, Hill and others  and we could have sent some draft picks and a trade exception. We would have absorbed his contract in a tarde. Iggy has nothing to do with this. His contract would have expired by this summer. I'm not saying sign him this summer, i'm saying we could have traded cap space for him. 

I don't think you could assume that the Miami Heat would have traded justise by the manner you are referring to.

I think that they were by and large happy with having him on the team and they just gave him 38 million over 3 years to prove their faith in what he provided.

It appears that you believe that Winslow was on the trading block perpetually, which I don't think was the case.

Now obviously he wasn't an untouchable player, but at the same time they weren't out there trying to firesale him off.

I think that they wanted to get into a better cap space while at the same time enhancing their chances in the playoffs.

They saw Winslow as the means to that end. Even if you think that throwing a bunch of draft picks at the Heat was the better move (debatable) but let's say that that is the case, I don't think Winslow would have been as easy to get as you seem to think.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

In a trade in the offseason. We would have had over $50 mil in cap space due to the expiring contracts of Iggy, Crorder, Hill and others  and we could have sent some draft picks and a trade exception. We would have absorbed his contract in a tarde. Iggy has nothing to do with this. His contract would have expired by this summer. I'm not saying sign him this summer, i'm saying we could have traded cap space for him. 

I still don't understand why you think it's so awful that we are shifting our cap space from this offseason to next offseason; So awful, in fact, that you'd rather we had traded future picks instead??  Essentially trading picks for the slimmest of chances at signing a player like, who, Bogdan Bogdanovic this offseason?  We'll have to agree to disagree on this I guess, but that sounds like a Chris Wallace style move to me.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

I still don't understand why you think it's so awful that we are shifting our cap space from this offseason to next offseason; So awful, in fact, that you'd rather we had traded future picks instead??  Essentially trading picks for the slimmest of chances at signing a player like, who, Bogdan Bogdanovic this offseason?  We'll have to agree to disagree on this I guess, but that sounds like a Chris Wallace style move to me.  

Yeah to me they just did their offseason work early. Resign Dilllon and get Winslow in now to be the SF of the future. If it doesnt work next year, try something new in Summer 2021. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

I still don't understand why you think it's so awful that we are shifting our cap space from this offseason to next offseason; So awful, in fact, that you'd rather we had traded future picks instead??  Essentially trading picks for the slimmest of chances at signing a player like, who, Bogdan Bogdanovic this offseason?  We'll have to agree to disagree on this I guess, but that sounds like a Chris Wallace style move to me.  

Our moves make sense if we are taking a wait-and-see approach with our brave new core.  Then you line up your free agency spending with our pick once we finish conveying to Boston.  So... we see what we have now, and take a similar approach NEXT season.

I am also guessing that our FO THINKS that Winslow might be a major piece for us (at least our fourth, fifth or sixth option) but we need some time to find out.

I like Ja/Jaren/Jonas/Dillon as a four man core myself, but other than Melton/Clarke who I also really like I am not sure what else we need.

If we are shifting things to the future then I like the move.  We don't necessarily need tons of money NOW, just when Jaren/Ja/Clarke come off their rookie deals.  We don't necessarily need a bunch of picks right now either -- we probably need them more once our "core" is peaking and is heavily paid then you go out and get some solid youngsters to round out the bench.

I was thinking that getting Dieng/Bell to round out our bench bullpen was a "win now" mode but I don't think the FO sees it that way.  Maybe its more like "win next year" mode with Dieng, optimize development for our young guys we ALREADY HAVE, then give Winslow a test run next year (assuming he doesn't get tons of minutes this year).

Maybe they like the 2021 free agency class better than this year's (I do).

Maybe they also like the 2021 draft better than this year's (I do).

I agree with you that they are in wait-and-see mode now to develop our guys, then we are gonna be in "evaluation mode" next season with Justise Winslow.  Maybe they also wanna see how Brave New Small Ball plays out -- is it a REAL THING?  Or, is BIG BALL gonna make a comeback?  

Hopefully by this time next year we have a good idea of who we want at the trade deadline, who we want in the draft (assuming we convey this off-season), and who we want in free agency.

Listening to the radio, it sounds like 2020-2021ish was kinda the goal line all along as far as "rebuilding" went.  That we are ahead of schedule but we don't really care about speeding up the "process" too much.

Taking each deadline move individually, I really really like getting Gorgui Dieng.  Ideal backup center/4th big man who can play center, block shots AND hit 3's.  

Stockpiling 3 and D bigs might be the way to go -- get guys who are effective in "small ball" but who will also be effective if/when the league gets big again.

Bruno for Bell?  I like Jordan Bell.  More of an old school big, not that long or big, but can dunk/board/block shots.  Solid energy big man.  Although Bruno had some range, tons of length, and could dunk/hit finger rolls.  You would THINK that he would be an ideal back up center/4th big man in "today's NBA" but who knows... obviously the Rockets are taking a flier on that line of thinking.  Probably a "meh move".  

Getting Winslow: I would PREFER a prototype 3 and D small forward to start at the 3, preferably a low or moderate usage one.  Maybe a guy who doesn't really need the ball either.  HOWEVER, if we slot Kyle Anderson in at the 3 (or an MLE guy or a second round pick) THEN I think Winslow becomes a really, really good 6th man.  Unicorn potential on BOTH sides of the ball as a power point forward or even a super-small-ball point center on offense (to go with low volume non-bad 3 point shooting) then (the potential of) defending all five positions while also helping out on the boards.  Then you can bring him in for any of Ja/Dillon/Kyle/Jaren/Jonas.  You also don't mess with the Tyus/Melton/Clarke bench mob axis that will probably now include Josh Jackson with some mix of Dieng/Marko/Bell/Grayson/Yuta depending on if you wanna go big or small.

For my money, I would give Raynere Thornton a 2 way deal next season -- I think he could be an ideal NO USAGE (doesn't NEED the ball but can hit a couple of shots and play well all-around) starting 3 and D small forward.  

I don't think the Suns 2nd rounder is gonna factor into things much.  I bet we will basically try to get the Best Player Available given a filter of "what kind of players fit in best in our system".  I think we make a solid pick, maybe even a home run, but I don't see us trying to make a grand slam pick. If we DO try for the grand slam it might be more of a Euro Stash type.  Odds are we take a generic wing (who can shoot a bit) or a generic big with a relatively high floor but a relatively low ceiling with a "baseline" that fits our scheme/process/system/philosophy.

Odds are, this team enters its "prime" at the same time we get those 1st round picks from Utah and Golden State.  I DO NOT think that we are gonna chase a bunch of "big name" free agents.  We would obviously LOVE to have Giannis/Luka/Zion but nobody is holding their breath.  I can see us going after more of the MLE types or the "one year contract wonder" types.  

We are gonna try to beat or at least keep up with our "rebuild cohorts" aka the Mavs and the Hawks and the Pelicans.  Although I think the Miami Heat is a Spurs-esque slow-burn, long-game dynasty in the making.  Let's see how the Battle of LA plays out, and see what the Bucks' ceiling is.  Although we wouldn't have to worry about Milwaukee until/if we get to the Finals.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2020 at 8:22 AM, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

After further consideration, we got fleeced, even if Winslow lives up to potential. Eating Waiters contract is enough to torpedo this deal for me and getting Dieng doesn't negate that for me.

I really hope Winslow can stay healthy, I really hope having a fresh start rejuvenates his career and I hope he is more productive than he has been but bring that he is currently not healthy, I'm kind of skeptical.

The salary thing is pretty much a wash.  Iggy 17.2 M, Crowder 7.8 M, Hill 12.8 M, Caboclo 1.85 M  = 39.65 Million in exchange for a 23 year old Winslow 13 M, Dieng 16.3 M, Bell 1.6 M, Waiters 12.1 M = 43 Million.

My feeling is that the FO didn't really want to trade Crowder and Hill as they were both giving us key minutes, but more that they had to trade them as they were the most expendable players of any value who we could package with Iggy .  

We'll miss Crowder's D and Hill's spark, but to me Winslow has a big upside and Dieng and Waiters are both solid defenders.  We could have really used Dieng against Phily last night.

Reports say Waiters may get waived, but they also said that about Iggy.  I don't see any benefit in waiving Waiters at this point.  He had some good years at OKC. Also his money is guaranteed but at least not as much Iggy so some of the sting from the Iggy cap hit is alleviated.  I say keep him, try to get his head straight and get him to buy in to the program.  He's just gotta stop eating the Colorado gummy bears. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/6/2020 at 3:16 PM, cdp said:

Name one free agent we could get better than Winslow for 13 mill. Go head.

You're asking the wrong question. The question should be what could the Grizzlies have bought with the $13MM going to Winslow + the cap space allocated to Dieng/Waiters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, ja12 said:

You're asking the wrong question. The question should be what could the Grizzlies have bought with the $13MM going to Winslow + the cap space allocated to Dieng/Waiters.

welcome I see this is your FIRST post 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the grizzlies bought in a good  player like winslow and they have a first round draft pick I believe is slated for 2024 from golden state , by 2024 golden state will s--- like how  they are now , so for me the grizzlies  received a A  for that move 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ja12 said:

You're asking the wrong question. The question should be what could the Grizzlies have bought with the $13MM going to Winslow + the cap space allocated to Dieng/Waiters.

Yeah, we could sign another Chandler Parsons, you know, the most notable free agent to ever sign with the Grizzlies' franchise in their history.  Until Memphis shows it can be an attractive free agent destination I wouldn't plan my cap space for it.

By the way, welcome to the nuthouse.  Always good to have more Grizzlies fans in here. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/8/2020 at 7:10 PM, etngrizz said:

The salary thing is pretty much a wash.  Iggy 17.2 M, Crowder 7.8 M, Hill 12.8 M, Caboclo 1.85 M  = 39.65 Million in exchange for a 23 year old Winslow 13 M, Dieng 16.3 M, Bell 1.6 M, Waiters 12.1 M = 43 Million.

My feeling is that the FO didn't really want to trade Crowder and Hill as they were both giving us key minutes, but more that they had to trade them as they were the most expendable players of any value who we could package with Iggy .  

We'll miss Crowder's D and Hill's spark, but to me Winslow has a big upside and Dieng and Waiters are both solid defenders.  We could have really used Dieng against Phily last night.

Reports say Waiters may get waived, but they also said that about Iggy.  I don't see any benefit in waiving Waiters at this point.  He had some good years at OKC. Also his money is guaranteed but at least not as much Iggy so some of the sting from the Iggy cap hit is alleviated.  I say keep him, try to get his head straight and get him to buy in to the program.  He's just gotta stop eating the Colorado gummy bears. 

I don't get the impression anyone is upset with the salaries math this season. I believe the issue is the salary taken on for next season. Bruno, Jae and Solomon were all expiring contracts. Waiters and Winslow have a combined salary of $25+ million next season and the Grizzlies have already bought out Waiters so his $12,650,000 is wasted money. The only hope the Grizzlies have is that someone is dumb enough to pick him up off of waivers which is highly unlikely.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

The only hope the Grizzlies have is that someone is dumb enough to pick him up off of waivers which is highly unlikely.  

read that the Lakers were kicking the tires ... think they will bite?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

read that the Lakers were kicking the tires ... think they will bite?

IS Mitch Kupchak still in the front office? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

read that the Lakers were kicking the tires ... think they will bite?

Even if they do, they aren't claiming him off waivers. No room for the contract. They are looking at signing him to a vet min. That will offset some but not much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Naw ... well ... sounds a little “different “ this go round...

The whispers aren’t whispering this time ... they are shouting.

They missed out on Morris - to the Clippers

They tried to get Collison to un-retire... to run point ... was he ever really “good”? I seriously don’t know... can’t name anything he’s won but oh k .

Now they are kicking the tires on a dude that Pat Riley couldn’t wait to get out of Miami and we straight up cut .

then the talk that the lake show was “interested” in signing Waiters... really?

cant make this up.

what technically has to happen and - are the Lakers desperate?

they need to win one this year... Bron getting on up there with all the miles extended post season ball put on him...

can they seriously think Waiters is the answer ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

Naw ... well ... sounds a little “different “ this go round...

The whispers aren’t whispering this time ... they are shouting.

They missed out on Morris - to the Clippers

They tried to get Collison to un-retire... to run point ... was he ever really “good”? I seriously don’t know... can’t name anything he’s won but oh k .

Now they are kicking the tires on a dude that Pat Riley couldn’t wait to get out of Miami and we straight up cut .

then the talk that the lake show was “interested” in signing Waiters... really?

cant make this up.

what technically has to happen and - are the Lakers desperate?

they need to win one this year... Bron getting on up there with all the miles extended post season ball put on him...

can they seriously think Waiters is the answer ? 

Maybe we should hope so?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, chipc3 said:

I don't get the impression anyone is upset with the salaries math this season. I believe the issue is the salary taken on for next season. Bruno, Jae and Solomon were all expiring contracts. Waiters and Winslow have a combined salary of $25+ million next season and the Grizzlies have already bought out Waiters so his $12,650,000 is wasted money. The only hope the Grizzlies have is that someone is dumb enough to pick him up off of waivers which is highly unlikely.  

Your points are all valid, but at least the FO did something.  To owe Iggy 17 Mil for never suiting up would have been hard to swallow.  Owing Waiters 25 Mil is not good either, but we get two players who will be key contributors in Winslow and Dieng.  Yes, Bruno, Jae and Solo were on expiring contracts, but somebody has to take their place in the future, right?  Enter Winslow and Dieng.

I know some Heat fans who really hated to see Winslow go, and we've had a hole at SF for quite some time now.  I think Winslow will step in and make us much more competitive once he's healthy.  The guy is a stud and he torched us earlier this season.  He can do it all.  We basically paid 25 mil (what we owe Waiters) to take on the Winslow and Dieng contracts.  It's a calculated gamble by the FO that I think will pay off.     

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crowder goes to Miami and now his scoring goes up and threes goes up...does everyone that leaves the Grizz become a better three-point shooter? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If a player clears waivers, and then is signed for say a vet minimum, does the old team get any cap relief?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jetfixer said:

If a player clears waivers, and then is signed for say a vet minimum, does the old team get any cap relief?

yes...50% of vets minimum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, f-dizzle said:

Crowder goes to Miami and now his scoring goes up and threes goes up...does everyone that leaves the Grizz become a better three-point shooter? 

Jazz fans were saying the same thing.  Crowders shooting will revert back to the mean.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, f-dizzle said:

Crowder goes to Miami and now his scoring goes up and threes goes up...does everyone that leaves the Grizz become a better three-point shooter? 

Flash in the pan, he'll level out big time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Jetfixer said:

If a player clears waivers, and then is signed for say a vet minimum, does the old team get any cap relief?

Quote

 

What Happens is a Waived Player Does not Get Claimed?

In the event that a waived player doesn’t get claimed (which happens a lot), the player will enter unrestricted free agency. This is called being cleared from waivers. The team who waived the player is still responsible for the remainder of their contract.

A player in free agency then has control of what team to sign with, but if they still have a remaining contract, the team that signs them will be responsible for paying off an amount of that contact.

 

This means that if a team signs Waiters, whatever his contract is with the new team will be deducted from what the Grizzlies owe Waiters. 

Then we have this viewpoint:
 

Quote

OK, so the player has cleared waivers. Now what?

When this happens, his remaining salary is either reduced or totally wiped clean from his old team, depending on what has been agreed upon. This is where things get fun. Now, the player becomes a free agent, free to join any team interested in signing him.

A team has to be able to sign a player with its own cap space or whatever exceptions they have available. For example, the Lakers, Sixers and Rockets are each expected to be players in the buyout market. The Celtics also traded Jabari Bird to the Hawks to clear a roster spot, as did several other teams.

Most playoff teams have a flooded payroll, so the most they can offer is the veteran’s minimum, which varies and caps at $2.3 million depending on a player’s experience.

They make it sound like the Grizzlies would buy out Waiters and then, if he signed somewhere else, they wouldn't get any relief. I don't believe that is correct however. I believe whatever the Grizzlies still owe Waiters will be reduced by whatever amount the signing teams pay him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this