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So are Jaren and Dillon good yet?

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4 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

Mods breaking the rules.  Can't take this place seriously.

Image result for im so ashamed gif

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Tony Allen was a beast of a defender.

Lock down first team all defense .

Tony Allen could have been fouled out of every game had the referees wanted to tag him .

TA’s reputation afforded him a lot of passes / no calls.

As the Grizz continue to win 13 will get a little mercy.

He needs to be selective about which shots to challenge- stop trying to block everything.

He also needs to learn how to move his feet and stop reaching / swiping.

Lastly he’s gotta keep his arms straight up - this is the one that baffles me.

I would gray tape his wrists and elbows locked vertically , post him just outside of the lane and run guys at him all practice long. 
 

AND -> this is super important- plant a few media blurbs about how hard he’s been working on d and how he’s gotten sooo much better...

need that story out there 
 

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Jaren has developed more than anyone on the team. I think he may be better than Ja. He plays on instinct, reacts quickly, and may soon be the most skilled big man in the league. He's a triple threat from 30 feet on in, and doesn't hesitate to act. His best asset is his mindset. He struggled with his role early on but now seems comfortable with his role which is to develop his skills. 
edit: 
He has a big hole in that he needs a mid-range game. He has no jump shot. 

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42 minutes ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

Tony Allen was a beast of a defender.

Lock down first team all defense .

Tony Allen could have been fouled out of every game had the referees wanted to tag him .

TA’s reputation afforded him a lot of passes / no calls.

As the Grizz continue to win 13 will get a little mercy.

He needs to be selective about which shots to challenge- stop trying to block everything.

He also needs to learn how to move his feet and stop reaching / swiping.

Lastly he’s gotta keep his arms straight up - this is the one that baffles me.

I would gray tape his wrists and elbows locked vertically , post him just outside of the lane and run guys at him all practice long. 
 

AND -> this is super important- plant a few media blurbs about how hard he’s been working on d and how he’s gotten sooo much better...

need that story out there 
 

Stuff like that works more often than it should.  It's worth a shot, but might need to wait until next season to make it believable.

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Jaren has a low floor at least in terms of numbers.

Ceiling is higher than lots of guys in his class. Maybe even more than Trae and Luka. Neither showed me a TON this past weekend.  Less “wow” factor than some other guys or maybe the hype train failed.  Luka wasn’t even the fattest guy on the court — which was actually strange.

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11 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

You should know that when he asks for your opinion you should give him the one he wants!

Come now, you are making me out to sound like KBM....geez....

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23 hours ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

When I watch him now, he actually rebounds outside of his immediate area when he's defensive rebounding. He never did that last year. I suspect his rebounding numbers look similar because JV is a good rebounder and gobbling up a lot of balls (plus JJJ lets JV have rebounds that he could fight for). He's a better rebounder this year.

I think the proper thing to do is say “pause” before making a statement like that.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ace-is-high said:

Blocks

When you factor in pace and increased minutes, especially at center since the team no longer had a legitimate back up center, it diminishes that impact somewhat. 

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Think ya'll are debating the wrong player in this topic.    Should be focusing on asking that question about Dillon instead.    He has been stinking up the joint ever since his extension.   

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Just now, GrizzTigerFan said:

Think ya'll are debating the wrong player in this topic.    Should be focusing on asking that question about Dillon instead.    He has been stinking up the joint ever since his extension.   

Once again, small set of numbers. You shouldn't make grand conclusions from small sets of experiences unless you enjoy changing your mind and retracting your comments a lot. 

If we want to look at Dillon's complete season against his rookies season you can make more realistic commentary. 

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5 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Once again, small set of numbers. You shouldn't make grand conclusions from small sets of experiences unless you enjoy changing your mind and retracting your comments a lot. 

If we want to look at Dillon's complete season against his rookies season you can make more realistic commentary. 

Jaren has been pretty good and has improved all this season.   Only thing that varies for him is shot opportunities from game to game.   Those oppurtunities are dictated by his fouls and teammates.    There are many factors that go into the fact that his numbers aren't that dif from last season.   CONTEXT matters.    

Dillon has been shooting putridly since his extension is a fact; yet still keeps shooting like he is a First option.   He has the 2nd highest usage rate on the team.    Dillon needs to figure out how to become a more complimentary scorer or just lean more on catch and shoot.   I

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16 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Jaren has been pretty good and has improved all this season.   Only thing that varies for him is shot opportunities from game to game.   Those oppurtunities are dictated by his fouls and teammates.    There are many factors that go into the fact that his numbers aren't that dif from last season.   CONTEXT matters.    

Dillon has been shooting putridly since his extension is a fact; yet still keeps shooting like he is a First option.   He has the 2nd highest usage rate on the team.    Dillon needs to figure out how to become a more complimentary scorer or just lean more on catch and shoot.   I

How do you quantify JJJ's improvement all season? ESPN has broken down his month by month performances and it doesn't exactly back up that statement.  

Brooks' performance since the extension has been disappointing but his season has been up and down too. In January he had his best month by far and we are talking about only 6 games in February so I would suggest a touch of patience before making too many proclamations about Dillon.  

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20 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

How do you quantify JJJ's improvement all season? ESPN has broken down his month by month performances and it doesn't exactly back up that statement.  

Brooks' performance since the extension has been disappointing but his season has been up and down too. In January he had his best month by far and we are talking about only 6 games in February so I would suggest a touch of patience before making too many proclamations about Dillon.  

Hahahahaha  the guy relentlessly criticizing the 20y old sophomore player that was supposed to be a project.  That only played half a season in his rookie year.    Same 20y is second leading scoring on team.       Is telling "somebody" to have a  touch of patience!?!?!   This is comedy gold!   Talk about a complete lack of self awareness.  Hahahahaa

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2 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Hahahahaha  the guy relentlessly criticizing the 20y old sophomore player that was supposed to be a project.  That only played half a season in his rookie year.    Same 20y is second leading scoring on team.       Is telling "somebody" to have a  touch of patience!?!?!   This is comedy gold!   Talk about a complete lack of self awareness.  Hahahahaa

In other words you can't answer my question. 

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6 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

In other words you can't answer my question. 

I quantify Jaren's improvement by the fact that we are in 8th seed and  he is 2nd most important player on the team.    His production from last season was as a 4th/5th  option surrounded by vets.  So Jaren wasn't really targeted and was more of a complimentary piece on offense and defense.    Now he is second leading scorer and the primary defensive anchor.   Teams game plan specifically for him and yet his all around scoring has improved as has his impact.     Like i said context matters.     

You argued that his increase in minutes should be credited for his increase in points; so i know you are familiar with how context works.   His shifting to a more important role yet still producing is all anyone needs to see. 

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Just now, GrizzTigerFan said:

I quantify Jaren's improvement by the fact that we are in 8th seed and  he is 2nd most important player on the team.    His production from last season was as a 4th/5th  option surrounded by vets.  So Jaren wasn't really targeted and was more of a complimentary piece on offense and defense.    Now he is second leading scorer and the primary defensive anchor.   Teams game plan specifically for him and yet his all around scoring has improved as has his impact.     Like i said context matters.     

You argued that his increase in minutes should be credited for his increase in points; so i know you are familiar with how context works.   His shifting to a more important role yet still producing is all anyone needs to see. 

You keep jumping around in your arguments. Previously it was my asking you to be patient about Dillon's production over 6 games. We have discussed this numerous times that you make grand proclamations over small sets of numbers and then have to "change your mind" as the larger set of numbers produces a more balanced view. It's a statistical flaw in your logic that I am pointing out with Dillon. You can read up on the law of large numbers here to get a better grasp of this basic concept. 

Now you are talking about JJJ and his lack of consistency this season and crediting him with the team's success as proving he has improved. This is another flaw in reasoning. It is referenced as Causation vs Correlation. Follow this link to under it better.  You are making the correlation that because the team is outperforming expectations that their 2nd most important (your term not mine) player is the reason for this. There is no proof being offered by you that would make someone logically follow this assumption however.

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Just now, chipc3 said:

You keep jumping around in your arguments. Previously it was my asking you to be patient about Dillon's production over 6 games. We have discussed this numerous times that you make grand proclamations over small sets of numbers and then have to "change your mind" as the larger set of numbers produces a more balanced view. It's a statistical flaw in your logic that I am pointing out with Dillon. You can read up on the law of large numbers here to get a better grasp of this basic concept. 

Now you are talking about JJJ and his lack of consistency this season and crediting him with the team's success as proving he has improved. This is another flaw in reasoning. It is referenced as Causation vs Correlation. Follow this link to under it better.  You are making the correlation that because the team is outperforming expectations that their 2nd most important (your term not mine) player is the reason for this. There is no proof being offered by you that would make someone logically follow this assumption however.

So you should wait till end of the season to make a declaration on Jaren's improvement, right.    I recall you started your campaign against Jaren only 1 month into the season?!?!     Seems to be you selectively pull the "small sample" logic out only when it suits your narrative. 

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Just now, GrizzTigerFan said:

So you should wait till end of the season to make a declaration on Jaren's improvement, right.    I recall you started your campaign against Jaren only 1 month into the season?!?!     Seems to be you selectively pull the "small sample" logic out only when it suits your narrative. 

The only reason I brought up JJJ's production to date is that Big HunkALove called me out to explain how JJJ hasn't done better. It was not my desire to do that at this time. 

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Just now, chipc3 said:

The only reason I brought up JJJ's production to date is that Big HunkALove called me out to explain how JJJ hasn't done better. It was not my desire to do that at this time. 

Nah you brought it up much earlier than that, which is why @BigHunkALove called you out.    Accusing him of not taking his offseason more seriously.    Don't backtrack now.   

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On 2/19/2020 at 3:50 AM, BigHunkALove said:

Funny how Chip is dodging this issue.

We said we'd evaluate Jaren at ASB, and compare his stats from last season.

Chip stated the criteria for Jaren's evaluation.

I posted the comparisons in the Taylor Jenkins thread.

No response.

For someone who had a lot to say on this issue before, it's pretty surprising its deafening silence now.

Or maybe it's not so surprising.......

 

 

 

This is the post that restarted the discussion. You are wrong to criticize me for discussing this now because I said I would wait until the end of the season to discuss how poorly JJJ started the season because everyone said I was being too mean to state the obvious in October and November. 

I even stated in my response that I was willing to wait until the end of the season. Aand again, I mentioned the law of small numbers not in relation to JJJ's performance this far into the season but your criticism of Dillon for the last 6 games. 

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8 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

how poorly JJJ started the season because everyone said I was being too mean to state the obvious in October and November. 

Thanks for proving my point.  This is  what i was criticizing.   I am aware that you finally backed off after being called out on it. 

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Just now, GrizzTigerFan said:

Thanks for proving my point.  This is  what i was criticizing.   I am aware that you finally backed off after being called out on it. 

I backed off in November. Of course it is more difficult to talk about how poorly prepared a person was for the start of the season when you aren't allowed to be honest about it until the end of the season but I think you know that already. 

Now if you will admit that you are equally guilty for the numerous posts you have made about Dillon over the last six games (far less than my comments that included pre-season as well as the first 10 games of the regular season) we can allow this thread to die. 

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14 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I backed off in November. Of course it is more difficult to talk about how poorly prepared a person was for the start of the season when you aren't allowed to be honest about it until the end of the season but I think you know that already. 

Now if you will admit that you are equally guilty for the numerous posts you have made about Dillon over the last six games (far less than my comments that included pre-season as well as the first 10 games of the regular season) we can allow this thread to die. 

Dillon has been bad over the last few games.   Why should i apologize for criticizing that?    Thats what i do.    I just criticized Ja too should i apologize as well?     

If its okay to criticize Jaren for his dumb fouling then it is okay to criticize Dillon for his bad offensive play.   

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