Subliminal

So are Jaren and Dillon good yet?

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Because all that is just hogwash, that's why I could not be bothered.

I know what the bottom line is. I asked what is the criteria you are judging Jaren on. You named it and said you wanted increases in 60%. That has been achieved. That is the point I am making. But you then want to move the goalposts to a whole other discussion and then pull out numbers to justify your position.

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Huge missing factor re JJJ's rebounds: what is Coach asking him to do? 

Has he told JJJ to box out and let JV get the boards?
Has he said, "if you fight for rebounds you're going to foul out, so don't" ? 

We criticize player A for stat padding and then switch threads and dump on player B for NOT stat padding. 

Remember, the big number is Wins. 

 

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1 hour ago, TimBC said:

Huge missing factor re JJJ's rebounds: what is Coach asking him to do? 

Has he told JJJ to box out and let JV get the boards?
Has he said, "if you fight for rebounds you're going to foul out, so don't" ? 

We criticize player A for stat padding and then switch threads and dump on player B for NOT stat padding. 

Remember, the big number is Wins. 

 

I don’t see him losing many rebounds.  

Not everybody can grab 2 whole rebounds in the Rising Stars game like Zion Williamson!!!

 

 

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Jaren is ABSOLUTELY the guy I thought he was.  lol

We are winning so who cares.

Chip is right in that he needs to still put in work.  This off-season is gonna help determine if he has legit All Star upside or whether he is just a high end plug-and-play role player a la Shane Battier or Robert Horry (but with more size and scoring).  

If we did a redraft I think he would go anywhere in the top 5.

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JJJ improve a lot this year. The only concern is the fouls part with some very stupid one, But the rest is fine for me. And i do not think there is any issue about rebounding, just because JJJ don't go for it. If he was fighting for rebound, he will be already 6+ and there will be no debate. And i do think it is better he don't go too hard because of the fouls things.

If he learn and make less fouls, then he will improve in rebounding area as well. Will he be a superstar ( as Ja will)?  i dont think so. He is to nice guy and  for the moment not strong enough to take the high responsability as Ja do in money time. But he will be a fantastic player for sure.

 

As the topic is about Dillon as well, for me Dillon is the surprise of the year. Great defender, improve on offense. If he can limit his brain to switch off sometimes, he will also be a  very good player.

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1 hour ago, TimBC said:

Huge missing factor re JJJ's rebounds: what is Coach asking him to do? 

Has he told JJJ to box out and let JV get the boards?
Has he said, "if you fight for rebounds you're going to foul out, so don't" ? 

We criticize player A for stat padding and then switch threads and dump on player B for NOT stat padding. 

Remember, the big number is Wins. 

 

This is year two and the second coach. I sincerely doubt both JB and Taylor told JJJ not to worry about rebounds. 

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Jaren definitely has a weird stat line.  Maybe Cliff Robinson did 18/5/1.5/1.5. Maybe not even Uncle Cliffy pulled it off.  

Last I looked, Jaren had a comparable stat line this season to an early 30’s Bob McAdoo (on the Lakers at the time). 

Last year Jaren put up the same stats at Kareem when KAJ was 40.

What does this mean?

Probably means we haven’t seen a guy like this in at least 25 years.  Or, maybe we got a guy who’s “upside” resembles a 70’s or 80’s great.  

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1 hour ago, ALT GRIND said:

Jaren is ABSOLUTELY the guy I thought he was.  lol

We are winning so who cares.

Chip is right in that he needs to still put in work.  This off-season is gonna help determine if he has legit All Star upside or whether he is just a high end plug-and-play role player a la Shane Battier or Robert Horry (but with more size and scoring).  

If we did a redraft I think he would go anywhere in the top 5.

There is not a person here who said he didn't need to work or improve on any facet of his game.

And yes, a redraft whould definitely see him still top 5, quite possibly 3rd, or still 4th, with Bagley (my original wishlist pick) dropping out, and depending on what the team on the clock thought about Shai G.A over Jaren, or Ayton who probably wouldnt be @ 1 now.. I don't see either Bridges, Sexton, or MPJ, as good as they have bern, jumping in front of Jaren.

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2 hours ago, BigHunkALove said:

There is not a person here who said he didn't need to work or improve on any facet of his game.

And yes, a redraft whould definitely see him still top 5, quite possibly 3rd, or still 4th, with Bagley (my original wishlist pick) dropping out, and depending on what the team on the clock thought about Shai G.A over Jaren, or Ayton who probably wouldnt be @ 1 now.. I don't see either Bridges, Sexton, or MPJ, as good as they have bern, jumping in front of Jaren.

The re-draft would be:

 

Luka

Gilgeous-Alexander

Trae/Jaren (depending on whether you valued more players putting up stats and losing or getting a better 2 way player).

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JJJ is a monster when he posts up down under the basket,  I wish he would post up more, and call for the ball down on the block especially when hes got a smaller guy on him, he hangs out on the 3 point line too much, I'm guessing that's what Jenkins wants him to do as it pulls his defender out opening driving lanes, but he could certainly mix it up more

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I don't know if this is a factor, but does Jaren get judged too harshly because of Ja.

Ja is a generational player in my opinion.  You can already see the growth from the start of the year to now; and he has a maturity beyond his years.  So, compared to that, yeah Jaren looks like he isn't making any progress.

Jaren's only 20 years old and obviously a kid.  His immaturity will drive most of us batty at times, but he'll get there.  Just don't expect him to be on Ja's timeline; 99% of young players aren't.

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4 hours ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

The re-draft would be:

 

Luka

Gilgeous-Alexander

Trae/Jaren (depending on whether you valued more players putting up stats and losing or getting a better 2 way player).

Yeah I get it, this is very subjective, but I don't know I'd have Shai @ 2

If it was me, right at this moment, it'd be 1. Luka, 2. Trae, 3. Jaren, 4. Shai, 5. Ayton, 6. Miles Bridges, 7. Sexton, 8. ?maybe Wendell CJ, 9. Mikal Bridges, 10. Bagley with MPJ still an unknown but with potential to rise big in the ranks. Knox is also hard to gauge, he has shown he can be real good too, but his team is crap, and Fizdale in the end wanted to go with garbage vets over him to save his own azzzz.

I know Trae's D is horrific, but to be fair, his team is absolutely crap, and he might improve or at least be covered up with a decent to real good defensive SG and SF. One does have to give him credit for his ability to bomb away, and his passing. But missing/passing on Trae, and ending up with Ja, while requiring a lotto-worth of luck, worked out being the best way to go.

So in general, the draft worked out right, with Bamba a bust, and Bagley headed that way, but not because of play/skill but because of injury.

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1 hour ago, CarloJ63 said:

I don't know if this is a factor, but does Jaren get judged too harshly because of Ja.

Ja is a generational player in my opinion.  You can already see the growth from the start of the year to now; and he has a maturity beyond his years.  So, compared to that, yeah Jaren looks like he isn't making any progress.

Jaren's only 20 years old and obviously a kid.  His immaturity will drive most of us batty at times, but he'll get there.  Just don't expect him to be on Ja's timeline; 99% of young players aren't.

Maybe, but from people's reactions here, I think it's more that from the ASB last season, he was being billed as the no.1 of Memphis' future, "the face of the franchise". Nobody knew about Ja, or the order of the draft, and because Jaren didn't start this season like a house on fire, some people layed into him real hard. It was when we all realised just how good Ja was, and that HE was truly the no.1 future for Memphis, people layed off Jaren a bit, but Jaren's play, particularly his 3pts shooting from Dec onwards, impressed most people and was unexpected.

The rest of what you say I agree with.

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2 hours ago, Ace-is-high said:

JJJ is a monster when he posts up down under the basket,  I wish he would post up more, and call for the ball down on the block especially when hes got a smaller guy on him, he hangs out on the 3 point line too much, I'm guessing that's what Jenkins wants him to do as it pulls his defender out opening driving lanes, but he could certainly mix it up more

Yes I agree with this too, and I was making a big deal about it in Nov, but from Dec onwards, as the 3s started to drop, we seemed to be egging on this part of his game the most.

I do agree that I think it is what Jenkins wants, Jaren seems to have shown him he can do it at a good clip, and also teams knocking down 3s is a pretty potent weapon when needing to come back from behind, or hammer/nail/coffin a team just trying to stay in the game against us.

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10 hours ago, TimBC said:

Huge missing factor re JJJ's rebounds: what is Coach asking him to do? 

Has he told JJJ to box out and let JV get the boards?
Has he said, "if you fight for rebounds you're going to foul out, so don't" ? 

We criticize player A for stat padding and then switch threads and dump on player B for NOT stat padding. 

Remember, the big number is Wins. 

 

Exactly.

Trae has higher wins shares than Jaren, but Trae's team has won half of what Jaren's team has.

This team has won more games with Jaren, two rookies, and no one over 29 years of age; compared with Jaren and no rookies, an all-Star, a DPOY, and two legit franchise legends.

The other numbers being produced here are just meaningless complicated BS

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45 minutes ago, I❤️JV said:

IMO Jarens 3 point shooting exceed expectations, rebounding stayed the same and fouling got even worse (biggest foul magnet in the NBA)....somehow he needs to sort his fouling as he becomes timid and bad defender when in foul trouble. He needs to work on his core strength in a summer and somehow sort his fouling issue. Eye test from what he looked like at the begging of the season and what he looks now IMO he looks much better. He has all the tools needed to become top 30 player and he still has benefit of the doubt that he can overcome his fouling. He'll probably never becomes a great rebounder, but next year he at least could average like 6...in his second year leading NBA in fouls (per game and total) is not a good look....if next year he won't improve his fouling it would be major concern.

My Jarens Grade  for this season so far...B-

But have you seen improvement other than three point shooting? 

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4 minutes ago, I❤️JV said:

....well... no....but 3 point shooting really improved .... I am hoping he will improve next year....because he has unreal natural gifts...to waste them would be criminal.

p.s. His play in general improved from what it was at the beginning of the season to what it is now. 

So you are saying his major accomplishment outside of being a green light to shoot more threes (something he showed he could do in college) he hasn't improved from last season but he has improved from the start of the season.

Would it be a stretch to say he came to camp unprepared after a summer of being called the leader of the team? 

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15 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

So you are saying his major accomplishment outside of being a green light to shoot more threes (something he showed he could do in college) he hasn't improved from last season but he has improved from the start of the season.

Would it be a stretch to say he came to camp unprepared after a summer of being called the leader of the team? 

He rebounds better, he defends better without fouling, he's a better shooter than last year.

 

What the hell do you want? You're too dug in on this point.

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Just now, Grizzfan7979 said:

He rebounds better, he defends better without fouling, he's a better shooter than last year.

 

What the hell do you want? You're too dug in on this point.

He actually doesn't rebound better. He simply plays more minutes so it appears he has slightly improved but his rebounds per minute on the court is not higher than last season. His defensive improvement is an interesting claim. How do you quantify that? His defensive rating is worse this season than last season. His fouls are up from last season. He has more blocks but fewer steals. How do you quantify the statement that he's improved? 

Also, I posted the numbers. I have not made a statement myself. I asked a question of the previous poster to clarify what he said. 

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19 hours ago, Subliminal said:

Geez y’all let him just try to figure it out. These analytics are a bunch of horseradish 

I was asked by BigHunkALove to respond to his post, repeatedly.  When I do respond and show validation for my position I am told to not talk about it. 

Sometimes you just can't win. 

By the way, analytics are the way front offices evaluate players. It isn't horseradish, whatever that means. 

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5 hours ago, BigHunkALove said:

Maybe, but from people's reactions here, I think it's more that from the ASB last season, he was being billed as the no.1 of Memphis' future, "the face of the franchise". Nobody knew about Ja, or the order of the draft, and because Jaren didn't start this season like a house on fire, some people layed into him real hard. It was when we all realised just how good Ja was, and that HE was truly the no.1 future for Memphis, people layed off Jaren a bit, but Jaren's play, particularly his 3pts shooting from Dec onwards, impressed most people and was unexpected.

The rest of what you say I agree with.

See the source image

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45 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I was asked by BigHunkALove to respond to his post, repeatedly.  When I do respond and show validation for my position I am told to not talk about it. 

Sometimes you just can't win. 

By the way, analytics are the way front offices evaluate players. It isn't horseradish, whatever that means. 

You should know that when he asks for your opinion you should give him the one he wants!

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1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

He actually doesn't rebound better. He simply plays more minutes so it appears he has slightly improved but his rebounds per minute on the court is not higher than last season. His defensive improvement is an interesting claim. How do you quantify that? His defensive rating is worse this season than last season. His fouls are up from last season. He has more blocks but fewer steals. How do you quantify the statement that he's improved? 

Also, I posted the numbers. I have not made a statement myself. I asked a question of the previous poster to clarify what he said. 

When I watch him now, he actually rebounds outside of his immediate area when he's defensive rebounding. He never did that last year. I suspect his rebounding numbers look similar because JV is a good rebounder and gobbling up a lot of balls (plus JJJ lets JV have rebounds that he could fight for). He's a better rebounder this year.

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Just now, Grizzfan7979 said:

When I watch him now, he actually rebounds outside of his immediate area when he's defensive rebounding. He never did that last year. I suspect his rebounding numbers look similar because JV is a good rebounder and gobbling up a lot of balls (plus JJJ lets JV have rebounds that he could fight for). He's a better rebounder this year.

The statistics don't support your opinion but everyone is entitled to their opinions. They just aren't entitled to their own facts. 

Unless you are Donald Trump I suppose. 

That's a joke by the way. It's not supposed to generate a ton of political commentary. 

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25 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

The statistics don't support your opinion but everyone is entitled to their opinions. They just aren't entitled to their own facts. 

Unless you are Donald Trump I suppose. 

That's a joke by the way. It's not supposed to generate a ton of political commentary. 

Mods breaking the rules.  Can't take this place seriously.

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