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Father Pat

Best scoring games and team record

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After 20 games (6-14), I took a look at the Grizzlies 10 players with the most minutes played so far, and the teams record for their 5 best scoring efforts. It might mean something or nothing, but is interesting;

5-0  Dillon Brooks. Dillon's 5 best scoring games this season have all resulted in Grizzlies victories. Remarkable.

3-2  Ja, J.V., and Solomon Hill's best scoring efforts resulted in victories more often than not.

2-3  Kyle Anderson, and Marko Guduric

1-4  JJJ, Crowder, Clarke, and T. Jones 

0-5   nobody

All but 1 of the Grizzlies victories occurred when Dillon had one of his best scoring efforts as opposed to only 1 victory from JJJ's best 5 offensive games. Anything to be read into or just coincidences?

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1 hour ago, Father Pat said:

After 20 games (6-14), I took a look at the Grizzlies 10 players with the most minutes played so far, and the teams record for their 5 best scoring efforts. It might mean something or nothing, but is interesting;

5-0  Dillon Brooks. Dillon's 5 best scoring games this season have all resulted in Grizzlies victories. Remarkable.

3-2  Ja, J.V., and Solomon Hill's best scoring efforts resulted in victories more often than not.

2-3  Kyle Anderson, and Marko Guduric

1-4  JJJ, Crowder, Clarke, and T. Jones 

0-5   nobody

All but 1 of the Grizzlies victories occurred when Dillon had one of his best scoring efforts as opposed to only 1 victory from JJJ's best 5 offensive games. Anything to be read into or just coincidences?

Difficult to tell without knowing the scores  of the other teammates and the opposition.

If Dillon contributes to scoring like a starting SG usually would, then with Ja, Jaren, JV and even Brandon, no doubt we would win many more games.

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26 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

Difficult to tell without knowing the scores  of the other teammates and the opposition.

If Dillon contributes to scoring like a starting SG usually would, then with Ja, Jaren, JV and even Brandon, no doubt we would win many more games.

How much should a starting SG score per game?  How many points does an average starter at any position score?

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7 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

How much should a starting SG score per game?  How many points does an average starter at any position score?

There’s only 8 SGs in the league averaging 20ppg or more (9 if you include Evan Fournier’s 19.8)

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10 minutes ago, fanboyslim said:

There’s only 8 SGs in the league averaging 20ppg or more (9 if you include Evan Fournier’s 19.8)

That's actually more than I expected.  It seems that for the last several years fewer SGs are premier scorers in the league.  I'm not sure what an average starting SG scores, but sometimes it feels like posters expect that every starter should average 20ppg or something.

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11 hours ago, Father Pat said:

After 20 games (6-14), I took a look at the Grizzlies 10 players with the most minutes played so far, and the teams record for their 5 best scoring efforts. It might mean something or nothing, but is interesting;

5-0  Dillon Brooks. Dillon's 5 best scoring games this season have all resulted in Grizzlies victories. Remarkable.

3-2  Ja, J.V., and Solomon Hill's best scoring efforts resulted in victories more often than not.

2-3  Kyle Anderson, and Marko Guduric

1-4  JJJ, Crowder, Clarke, and T. Jones 

0-5   nobody

All but 1 of the Grizzlies victories occurred when Dillon had one of his best scoring efforts as opposed to only 1 victory from JJJ's best 5 offensive games. Anything to be read into or just coincidences?

Dillon Brooks ROCKS.....3J sucks with empty stats.

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2 hours ago, lsugrizzfan said:

I would bet that a lot of teams are better when their role players play like stars. Big games from players you don't expect it from is a huge bonus.

... Dillon is not a role player for the Grizzlies. He is tied for most starts and second for most minutes.

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2 hours ago, Father Pat said:

... Dillon is not a role player for the Grizzlies. He is tied for most starts and second for most minutes.

Starts and minutes don't mean you're not a role player. PJ Tucker is 12th in the NBA in minutes played, still just a role player. Glenn Robinson III is 13th in minutes. He's a role player, too. 

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3 hours ago, lsugrizzfan said:

Starts and minutes don't mean you're not a role player. PJ Tucker is 12th in the NBA in minutes played, still just a role player. Glenn Robinson III is 13th in minutes. He's a role player, too. 

I think what you really mean is that you have decided that certain players are or are not role players so that is fact, which of course is total nonsense. "Role players" in the NBA are NOT among their respective team leaders in field goal attempts, starts and minutes, like Dillon is. Those players are known as "starters".

"A role player in basketball is a player on the team who plays a supporting role on the roster. This player usually comes off the bench, and has a specific set of skills that the team requires from them. For example, a role player may be a valuable three-point shooter or a defensive specialist."

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You can be a starter and still be a role player.  Tony Allen was a role player, but he was a major part of the team's game strategy.  I agree though, that because Dillon is a big part of our offense, as well as being our best back court defender, he is more than the traditional role player.

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2 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

You can be a starter and still be a role player.  Tony Allen was a role player, but he was a major part of the team's game strategy.  I agree though, that because Dillon is a big part of our offense, as well as being our best back court defender, he is more than the traditional role player.

You clearly don’t remember Marc Iavaroni playing in Philly.

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28 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

You clearly don’t remember Marc Iavaroni playing in Philly.

I don't really remember him at Philly, just a little at Utah.  He just wasn't very memorable.

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6 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

I don't really remember him at Philly, just a little at Utah.  He just wasn't very memorable.

 It he started for Philly when they won the title. He is the definition of role player despite starting. 

Personally I don’t feel Dillon is merely a role player because he is being asked to score, defend and bring energy every night. I just don’t feel your definition is accurate of a role player.

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14 hours ago, Father Pat said:

I think what you really mean is that you have decided that certain players are or are not role players so that is fact, which of course is total nonsense. "Role players" in the NBA are NOT among their respective team leaders in field goal attempts, starts and minutes, like Dillon is. Those players are known as "starters".

"A role player in basketball is a player on the team who plays a supporting role on the roster. This player usually comes off the bench, and has a specific set of skills that the team requires from them. For example, a role player may be a valuable three-point shooter or a defensive specialist."

Where I disagree with you is that you can be a starter and still be a role player. Someone mentioned Tony Allen, role player. Danny Green was a role player with the Spurs and is a role player with Lakers, started every game. Marcus Smart is fourth on the Celtics on minutes and has started 14 of 19 games, still a role player. PJ Tucker has started every game and has second most minutes on the Rockets, still a role player.

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On 12/4/2019 at 9:19 PM, chipc3 said:

 It he started for Philly when they won the title. He is the definition of role player despite starting. 

Personally I don’t feel Dillon is merely a role player because he is being asked to score, defend and bring energy every night. I just don’t feel your definition is accurate of a role player.

I didn't call Dillon a role player, nor did I define it.  Heck, all basketball players are role players though really.  It's just that some have a featured role.  Is usage rate an indicator of whether or not a player is featured?  Dillon has the fourth highest usage rate on the team behind Ja, Jaren, and Jonas, which sounds about right with our current roster.  I agree that he is not a standard role player simply because the team asks him to do so many different things - spot up, drive, mid-range, p 'n' r, as well as defend the opposing team's featured players.   

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20 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

I didn't call Dillon a role player, nor did I define it.  Heck, all basketball players are role players though really.  It's just that some have a featured role.  Is usage rate an indicator of whether or not a player is featured?  Dillon has the fourth highest usage rate on the team behind Ja, Jaren, and Jonas, which sounds about right with our current roster.  I agree that he is not a standard role player simply because the team asks him to do so many different things - spot up, drive, mid-range, p 'n' r, as well as defend the opposing team's featured players.   

The term "role player" seems to have went from the equivalence of baseballs utility infielder to any NBA player that is not a two way all star player. The term seems to say more about the person using it than the NBA player in question. Perhaps we are dissecting todays NBA players too much. I think we are being too picky. Role players used to be a guy that was basically "filling in" and wouldn't be missed that much if he wasn't on the team because he is usually easily replaced. 

Earlier you said Tony Allen was a role player. Why? Early in his career I would agree. Once he was a starter and recognized as the best or one of the best defenders in the league, why would he still be a role player? Is a player that is one of the best in any particular aspect of the game (defense, rebounding, steals, ppg, ...etc) relegated to the title of role player because he is not a two way all star? Was Dennis Rodman a role player? What about Kevin McHale (2 time 6th man award winner)? I believe the term is used too loosely. Way too loosely. What's a starting player that isn't a role player called?

I believe that in basketball, you have your "pillars", known to Grizzlies fans as core players. You can't be a core player and a role player. 60 win teams have core players as do 20 win teams. The 20 win teams core players may not be as good as the 60 win teams core players, but they are still core players. The rest of the team fills in, they play a role. Role players are more likely to be on the scrub love thread than NBA starters. A NBA starter has earned it and should be respected for that accomplishment. We should err on the side of respecting that instead of erring on the side of lessening his accomplishment. Of course there are examples contrary to every rule, but I believe we throw out the term "role player" too much.

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1 hour ago, Father Pat said:

The term "role player" seems to have went from the equivalence of baseballs utility infielder to any NBA player that is not a two way all star player. The term seems to say more about the person using it than the NBA player in question. Perhaps we are dissecting todays NBA players too much. I think we are being too picky. Role players used to be a guy that was basically "filling in" and wouldn't be missed that much if he wasn't on the team because he is usually easily replaced. 

Earlier you said Tony Allen was a role player. Why? Early in his career I would agree. Once he was a starter and recognized as the best or one of the best defenders in the league, why would he still be a role player? Is a player that is one of the best in any particular aspect of the game (defense, rebounding, steals, ppg, ...etc) relegated to the title of role player because he is not a two way all star? Was Dennis Rodman a role player? What about Kevin McHale (2 time 6th man award winner)? I believe the term is used too loosely. Way too loosely. What's a starting player that isn't a role player called?

I believe that in basketball, you have your "pillars", known to Grizzlies fans as core players. You can't be a core player and a role player. 60 win teams have core players as do 20 win teams. The 20 win teams core players may not be as good as the 60 win teams core players, but they are still core players. The rest of the team fills in, they play a role. Role players are more likely to be on the scrub love thread than NBA starters. A NBA starter has earned it and should be respected for that accomplishment. We should err on the side of respecting that instead of erring on the side of lessening his accomplishment. Of course there are examples contrary to every rule, but I believe we throw out the term "role player" too much.

I agree wholeheartedly.  The definition of role player probably varies greatly between different fans' perspective/definition, and for some casual fans who only really value the volume scoring superstars, the value of the players who perform many of the more subtle aspects of the game is not understood as well, and they are relegated to role player status.  Pillars is a good analogy.  Though Tony Allen was not one of the scoring stars for the grit 'n' grind Grizzlies, he was most definitely a pillar.  That team would never have been so tough or as good without him.

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