PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan

Jenkins system has not,is not and will never work.

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2 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

This is an intelligent take that i don't necessarily disagree with.    I applaud you for actually discussing the matter without all the narrative switching and baiting that @chipc3 is doing.   

Notice what Dallas doesn't have when they are running that system?!?    A paint clogging Big like Jonas in the middle.    Which is why i keep saying that Jaren and Jonas really need to be split up.   This system isn't setup to feature two Bigs.     One of them has to float on perimeter for it to work and right now that's Jaren.      

Unlike Chip I recall numerous times that FO stated that Jaren would be an offensive focal all summer and that this was HIS TEAM.    What do you think that means Chip?    FO anointed him not me when they flipped entire team.  So you think he should be the 4th option on the offense??   Which is what he basically is now.    I'll repeat this again.  Jenkins said they dont run plays for Jaren.    The teams 2nd best player doesn't get plays called for him.    There is no logic in the world that makes sense of that.    (Keep in mind i can criticize a coach and not want him fired).  Just putting that out there because you have a hard time understanding that. 

My Zbo example was in regards to his ATTITUDE not his play style.  Zbo would not allow the guards to make him an afterthought in any offense.   

BTW I am a proponent of 4 out offense.   I never said they should completely abandon an inside game.   That is always needed when it comes to halfcourt bball. 

Maverick i completely agree with you that JJJ needs a midrange game badly.    That will help alot in keeping defenses honest. 

It’s also why Toronto traded for Marc. our Powell is Clarke right now. We just need a few more stretch bigs and Ja has to learn not to rely on his athleticism so much. Start thinking a bit. 
 

and develop a consistent jump shot. 

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1 minute ago, Memphis Maverick said:

It’s also why Toronto traded for Marc. our Powell is Clarke right now. We just need a few more stretch bigs and Ja has to learn not to rely on his athleticism so much. Start thinking a bit. 
 

and develop a consistent jump shot. 

So what do you think should be done with Jonas?  Taylor system will eventually make him moot unless he turns into Brook Lopez.   

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1 minute ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Yes this is a huge issue too.   I really think they need to split up Jaren and Jonas completely.    Ja is God awful and defense which doesn't help Jonas at all.    I bet Jaren would get in a lot less foul trouble playing alongside a more competent PF like Brandon or Kyle. 

The jail break heading right towards Jaren isn't 100% Jaren's fault.  

Maybe we could go with a Ja/Josh/Kyle/Clarke/Jaren lineup that featured more length, athleticism, and defense (without sacrificing shot blocking or jump shooting).

Kyle is a secondary ball handler but might be better at play making and controlling the tempo than Ja.

We could do with less Jonas -- although as a bully ball big man off the bench, he should be a good designated 6th man.

Even if we keep Jonas in the starting five we would need to upgrade our perimeter defense -- maybe Ja/Josh/Kyle/Jaren/Jonas would do the trick.  Then you still have Clarke and Dillon off the bench.

Kyle would then be our secondary play maker (top tempo guy) and Josh could be our secondary perimeter scorer.  Do Ja/Jaren pick and pops way up top, leave Kyle in the strong corner for corner 3's or passes into the interior, have Jonas post up on the strong side, then have Josh on the weak side (high post? corner?).  

We would still need extra spot-up shooters off the bench and at least one more big man.

 

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6 minutes ago, ALT GRIND said:

Even if we keep Jonas in the starting five we would need to upgrade our perimeter defense -- maybe Ja/Josh/Kyle/Jaren/Jonas would do the trick.  Then you still have Clarke and Dillon off the bench.

 

Crowder and Dillon aren't bad defenders tho.  So replacing them yet keeping Jonas + Ja wont make a difference.     Only way to cover for Jonas poor defense is having him surrounded by good defenders and same thing for Ja.    

As of today best Starting lineup to do that is  Ja +  Dillon + Jae + Brandon + Jaren.      Kyle can be swapped out for Jae  if you like but i kinda like him in 2nd unit.  His passing and defense is needed more next to Jonas.  

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16 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

So what do you think should be done with Jonas?  Taylor system will eventually make him moot unless he turns into Brook Lopez.   

Trade him...he is useless in Jenkins system.

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1 minute ago, I❤️JV said:

Trade him...he is useless in Jenkins system.

I really like Jonas as a weapon for this young team.  But i don't like how he is used at all in TJ system.   Do you think he would rather be traded than be a high usage Big off the bench?  

 

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49 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

So what do you think should be done with Jonas?  Taylor system will eventually make him moot unless he turns into Brook Lopez.   

He already is. He’s starting to shoot threes and is actually decent at hitting them. 

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31 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I really like Jonas as a weapon for this young team.  But i don't like how he is used at all in TJ system.   Do you think he would rather be traded than be a high usage Big off the bench?  

 

Unless we could get Clarke to play the 3 AND Jonas to improve his defense, I think we should start Jaren/Clarke inside then bring Jonas off the bench.  

A starting five of Ja/Josh/Kyle/Clarke/Jaren would maximize our play making, length, athleticism, and scoring.

Dillon and Jonas can be our chuckers off the bench.  Oh... and Jae.  

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37 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I really like Jonas as a weapon for this young team.  But i don't like how he is used at all in TJ system.   Do you think he would rather be traded than be a high usage Big off the bench?  

 

It's a complicated question, he just bought a house in Memphis and actually he likes Memphis...his family is not a big fan of moving as well....but as a professional you want to make a difference and he just wants to be needed....it's just my opinion but Jenkins system does not need Jonas....and Ja & Jonas does not work ...i would like to see last season Jonas, but unfortunately it is impossible...Ja is young athletic ...but he does not know how to play PnR with Jonas...i want Mike back....

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24 minutes ago, I❤️JV said:

It's a complicated question, he just bought a house in Memphis and actually he likes Memphis...his family is not a big fan of moving as well....but as a professional you want to make a difference and he just wants to be needed....it's just my opinion but Jenkins system does not need Jonas....and Ja & Jonas does not work ...i would like to see last season Jonas, but unfortunately it is impossible...Ja is young athletic ...but he does not know how to play PnR with Jonas...i want Mike back....

I think Tyus would be a better PickNRoll partner with him.   He plays alot more traditional like Mike did.     Ja and Jaren really need to have the freedom on offense to develop chemistry together.      I agree if Jenkins system requires the Big to spend more time shooting 3s than beasting in the paint then Jonas is a bad fit.    I am not a proponent of playing players away from their strengths.    Jaren is a special case because he is more of a jack-of-all-trades than elite in anything.    The team can play 4 or 5 out if he was the sole Big on the floor.   That is more in line with what TJ wants to do.   

Expecting rookie Ja to develop chemistry with Jaren AND Jonas at the same time is a LOT.    I am casting my ballot in favor of splitting them up.     Big reason why Marc + Zbo worked so well for years is because Marc deferred to Zbo AND was a great passer.   They truly complimented each other stylistically.       Jaren and Jonas dont.    Neither are good passers nor that deferential.     Its the same reason why Myles and Sabonis isn't working.     Both are better being the sole Big (in role).       Porzingas really never liked posting up anyway.   He always played like a guard.   

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Many of us mentioned that JV and Jaren wouldn't work together last year as the primary reason not to resign Jonas. (#freeJonas) 

It is interesting seeing everyone including JV fans agree to it now.  I actually think there have been times that JV and Ja have looked decent together. I also think giving your big a few touches inside early is just good for game flow purposes but I digress.... it is not working with JJJ and JV both on the court at the same time.

Maybe start both but stagger their minutes even more dramatically? Seems a shame to trade JV, a productice player on a good contract.

Also assuming we moved JV - who plays Center? 

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3 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

This is an intelligent take that i don't necessarily disagree with.    I applaud you for actually discussing the matter without all the narrative switching and baiting that @chipc3 is doing.   

Notice what Dallas doesn't have when they are running that system?!?    A paint clogging Big like Jonas in the middle.    Which is why i keep saying that Jaren and Jonas really need to be split up.   This system isn't setup to feature two Bigs.     One of them has to float on perimeter for it to work and right now that's Jaren.      

Unlike Chip I recall numerous times that FO stated that Jaren would be an offensive focal all summer and that this was HIS TEAM.    What do you think that means Chip? FO anointed him not me when they flipped entire team.  So you think he should be the 4th option on the offense??   Which is what he basically is now.    I'll repeat this again.  Jenkins said they dont run plays for Jaren.    The teams 2nd best player doesn't get plays called for him.    There is no logic in the world that makes sense of that.    (Keep in mind i can criticize a coach and not want him fired).  Just putting that out there because you have a hard time understanding that. 

My Zbo example was in regards to his ATTITUDE not his play style.  Zbo would not allow the guards to make him an afterthought in any offense.   

BTW I am a proponent of 4 out offense.   I never said they should completely abandon an inside game.   That is always needed when it comes to halfcourt bball. 

Maverick i completely agree with you that JJJ needs a midrange game badly.    That will help alot in keeping defenses honest. 

Dallas has Boban Marjanovic (7'4"), Dwight Powell (6'10") and Kristap who is 7'3" are all big men. Only Kristap has an outside game and he plays power forward not center. Maxi Kleiber is also playing center some and he does take threes but that doesn't mean Dallas doesn't have paint bangers in the middle. Jonas has hit more 3s than we expected this season and is only averaging 24.8 MPG in his last 10 games which is more than he played earlier in the season. It's not Jonas' fault that Jaren can't operate with success. It's not the system's fault that works for Kristap, Brooks Lopez, Al Horford and others who adapted their game to the new system and excelled.  

I am more than happy to be shown where the front office said Jaren would be an offensive focal point all summer and that this was "HIS" team.  While you are at it, show me where I said they didn't say this... 

What I said was:
 

Quote

At some point you have to wonder if it’s really all the coaches fault. At some point you have to question the front office and the players. At least I do and have been for quite a while. A coach’s power isn’t as great as people seem to believe in my opinion. I just don’t believe all these coaches have been incompetent.

and 

Quote

So the team shouldn't work around their coach's beliefs and their most talented players skillset to placate the less talented player? 

You can blame the coach and the PG but it's is 100% Jaren's job to work within the system in my mind. You can't blame Ja and Jenkins for JJJ fouling out in 18 minutes can you? 

JJJ looks like a child (which he is) who doesn't understand why he is being held to such a high standard. He has numerous flaws in his game that he needs to improve on and that is work that is best done after the season not during the season. Hopefully he will put in the effort this summer and show improvement next season. 

So I repeatedly have said you can't blame the coach every time you don't like outcomes. You have blamed the coach's consistently since Hollins and none pass your test. Perhaps it isn't the coaches or the system or the rookie PG. Perhaps it is simply that Jaren is what he is. He didn't stay on the court in college, he didn't stay on the court as a rookie and he hasn't been able to stay on the court this season.

Are we really going to blame this all on coaching and systems and other players? When does Jaren take responsibility for his failures? 

Oh and after hearing you criticize Hollins, Joerger, Fizdale and Bickerstaff before switching to wanting them fired everyone knows your MO on the board. It's only 14 games into the season. Before he reaches 100 games you will be demanding Jenkins get fired as well. 

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14 minutes ago, SC Grizz said:

Many of us mentioned that JV and Jaren wouldn't work together last year as the primary reason not to resign Jonas. (#freeJonas) 

It is interesting seeing everyone including JV fans agree to it now.  I actually think there have been times that JV and Ja have looked decent together. I also think giving your big a few touches inside early is just good for game flow purposes but I digress.... it is not working with JJJ and JV both on the court at the same time.

Maybe start both but stagger their minutes even more dramatically? Seems a shame to trade JV, a productice player on a good contract.

Also assuming we moved JV - who plays Center? 

Jaren should be playing center if he would learn to stop being so soft.  it's unfathomable to me how bad he is at getting position on defense and in his poor rebounding rate given his frame.

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3 minutes ago, grizz09 said:

Jaren should be playing center if he would learn to stop being so soft.  it's unfathomable to me how bad he is at getting position on defense and in his poor rebounding rate given his frame.

Jaren isn't a center. He is too much for PF's to handle but putting in as a center takes away his strengths and exposes his weaknesses. Jaren has to improve his. GTF says he isn't Giannis. That is true but he can play if he improves his ball handling skills which are rudimentary at best. He can become a better passer. He can become more consistent with his shot. He can become a better rebounder. He must learn not to foul so much. 

Think about this. Jaren has only managed to play 30 or more minutes in a game 5 times this season. In those games he is averaging 20.2 PPG. That is solid scoring. It is rare Memphis has ever had a player average over 20 PPG in a season. Jackson is getting that with Jonas and Ja and Jenkins system when he remains on the court. He is averaging 5 PPG in the three games he couldn't even reach 20 minutes in a game. He averages 13.2 PPG when he plays between 20 and 30 minutes a night. Those numbers are a bit misleading too because in three of those games he failed to play over half the game. The bottom line is when Jaren plays over half a game he is averaging 18 PPG. That is great for a second year player. When he fails to reach more than 24 minutes in a game he is averaging 9 PPG. 

When Jaren is on the court, not committing stupid fouls, he is very effective scoring even with Jonas, Ja and Jenkins system. When he is getting himself in foul trouble early and not playing more than 24 minutes a game he is ineffective regardless of who is on the court with him. 

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Blaming Jenkins does not make sense. Even if i get pretty annoyed when he justsit some guys when they have hot moment. Some of her rotation are indeed questionnable.

The problem we have for me is defensive one. We know Jenkins system, all for offense and we improve already a lot on this area. But sorry, Basket ball start with defense and we are way to weak. We cannot rely on scoring 120 points each game as GSW or Milwaukee do.

We have to give more ball to Jonas inside in my opinion and when he and Ja are on the field, add better defender as Dillion.

 

For me i will judge Jenkins after one and half season. If next year in Janaury, we are not a top 8 team, then we shoud fire him. 

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3 hours ago, chipc3 said:

Jaren isn't a center. He is too much for PF's to handle but putting in as a center takes away his strengths and exposes his weaknesses. Jaren has to improve his. GTF says he isn't Giannis. That is true but he can play if he improves his ball handling skills which are rudimentary at best. He can become a better passer. He can become more consistent with his shot. He can become a better rebounder. He must learn not to foul so much. 

Think about this. Jaren has only managed to play 30 or more minutes in a game 5 times this season. In those games he is averaging 20.2 PPG. That is solid scoring. It is rare Memphis has ever had a player average over 20 PPG in a season. Jackson is getting that with Jonas and Ja and Jenkins system when he remains on the court. He is averaging 5 PPG in the three games he couldn't even reach 20 minutes in a game. He averages 13.2 PPG when he plays between 20 and 30 minutes a night. Those numbers are a bit misleading too because in three of those games he failed to play over half the game. The bottom line is when Jaren plays over half a game he is averaging 18 PPG. That is great for a second year player. When he fails to reach more than 24 minutes in a game he is averaging 9 PPG. 

When Jaren is on the court, not committing stupid fouls, he is very effective scoring even with Jonas, Ja and Jenkins system. When he is getting himself in foul trouble early and not playing more than 24 minutes a game he is ineffective regardless of who is on the court with him. 

great analysis.  i guess the better thing to say is that he should be able to at least play some backup 5 with brandon at the 4.

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On 11/20/2019 at 2:13 AM, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

I had to read this post way too many times to get it - I think I agree IF you’re saying that little by little it may work itself out ... then again I’m so worked up by his substitutions at the most baffling times - I may not be the most objective fan.

Hubie had a ten man rotation that he explained (THIS is key ) Hubie took the time to break it down- we didn’t have the talent to field a traditional team so he literally adapted his coaching style to fit the personnel he had at that time ( not the team he wished he had nor was he coaching for a team he hoped he’d get later) .

I liked Hubie - his interviews and insights taught me sooo much about NBA basketball... prior to us getting the Grizz , I was more of a player fan and watched basketball when it was on ... ( living in a foreign country before the internet became what it is today had a lot to do with that !) 

When most coaches gave their interviews I , as a casual fan, didn’t really pay attention ... canned , cookie cutter, boring , or obligatory sound bites.

Hubie wasn’t doing any of that ! 
He broke the schedule down into bite sized pieces, gave brutally honest opinions and was able to explain some of the more complex NBA workings in down to earth language that I could understand...

oh and he CUSSED - ALOT ... and ANYBODY could get it ! 
I liked that about him too . Seemed like the kind of guy I’d love to have a few pitchers with watching games. 
Pops, Chris Collinsworth and John Madden are others.

Naazim Richardson,  Barry Hunter,  and Virgil Hunter

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12 hours ago, I❤️JV said:

It's a complicated question, he just bought a house in Memphis and actually he likes Memphis...his family is not a big fan of moving as well....but as a professional you want to make a difference and he just wants to be needed....it's just my opinion but Jenkins system does not need Jonas....and Ja & Jonas does not work ...i would like to see last season Jonas, but unfortunately it is impossible...Ja is young athletic ...but he does not know how to play PnR with Jonas...i want Mike back....

What is hard for me to understand is why we sign JV if we do not plan to use him with his best quality. Okay he is an asset and we can trade him but it will way more smart to make him play as last year. 

And same apply for JJJ as well. JJJ is clearly not confortable with the system, fault way too much and seems to get frustrated. JJJ and JV are the best player we have and we not use them the way we should.

I know people think that Ja will make it all. They wrong. The young guy is very talented but still far from Mike even if we know he will learn and become a huge player. He shine a lot because the other player sucks. 

 At this moment we need to play with our quality, not asking guys to do things they can't.    

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It seems like the point is to get them better at doing what the coach wants them to. This is a pretty normal thing in soccer, the management decide how they want to play and hire a coach to implement that change, in the NBA you have the added bonus that you can't get relegated so you can stick at it for a whole season to get better for the future. Feeding JV in the post would undoubtedly lead to improved results but is that the best thing for the future of the team? 

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32 minutes ago, UkGrizz said:

It seems like the point is to get them better at doing what the coach wants them to. This is a pretty normal thing in soccer, the management decide how they want to play and hire a coach to implement that change and the team often signs a few players that match the new play style, in the NBA you have the added bonus that you can't get relegated so you can stick at it for a whole season to get better for the future. Feeding JV in the post would undoubtedly lead to improved results but is that the best thing for the future of the team? 

Unfortunately in the NBA coaches are very much restricted by the makeup of their roster, which may or may not adapt well to a new style. And unlike in soccer, you can't just push those who don't adapt to the bench without impacting their trade value. I remember Marc Iavaroni was supposed to turn the Grizzlies into a new version of the SSOL Suns where he had been an assistant. That... didn't work out so well. I hope the new FO is not making the same mistake.

That said, I'm not sure what we're seeing is "Jenkins' system". I recall him saying they only worked with a limited number of system concepts in training camp, and the play style may change as new concepts are tried and incorporated. I think it's likely the team will play somewhat differently by the end of the season.

And of course I'm convinced Crowder and Hill are being showcased in order to build some trade value so that has to impact necessarily in the number of touches our big men get.

 

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18 minutes ago, fanboyslim said:

Unfortunately in the NBA coaches are very much restricted by the makeup of their roster, which may or may not adapt well to a new style. And unlike in soccer, you can't just push those who don't adapt to the bench without impacting their trade value. I remember Marc Iavaroni was supposed to turn the Grizzlies into a new version of the SSOL Suns where he had been an assistant. That... didn't work out so well. I hope the new FO is not making the same mistake.

 That said, I'm not sure what we're seeing is "Jenkins' system". I recall him saying they only worked with a limited number of system concepts in training camp, and the play style may change as new concepts are tried and incorporated. I think it's likely the team will play somewhat differently by the end of the season.

 And of course I'm convinced Crowder and Hill are being showcased in order to build some trade value so that has to impact necessarily in the number of touches our big men get.

  

There's only 8 guaranteed contracts for next year though. If next year, with the players who've had a season of Jenkins and the new players added, we're still terrible then people can say the system won't work. 

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3 minutes ago, UkGrizz said:

There's only 8 guaranteed contracts for next year though. If next year, with the players who've had a season of Jenkins and the new players added, we're still terrible then people can say the system won't work. 

Yep

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16 hours ago, chipc3 said:

Dallas has Boban Marjanovic (7'4"), Dwight Powell (6'10") and Kristap who is 7'3" are all big men. Only Kristap has an outside game and he plays power forward not center. Maxi Kleiber is also playing center some and he does take threes but that doesn't mean Dallas doesn't have paint bangers in the middle. Jonas has hit more 3s than we expected this season and is only averaging 24.8 MPG in his last 10 games which is more than he played earlier in the season. It's not Jonas' fault that Jaren can't operate with success. It's not the system's fault that works for Kristap, Brooks Lopez, Al Horford and others who adapted their game to the new system and excelled.  

 

Powell isn't a "banger" like Jonas is and Kristaps doesn't really play in the post either.   Their more traditional centers aren't starters.   Which proves my point.   They are mostly a 4 out offense.    I am not blaming Jonas for anything.    Kristap already FIT that system and Carlilse further adapted his system to fit his best players (Luka and Porzingod).   

FO and Taylor stated over the summer that they are crafting a system for the roster they WILL have not the one they have today.   What i am questioning is will this system fit our TWO best players.   

16 hours ago, chipc3 said:

 I am more than happy to be shown where the front office said Jaren would be an offensive focal point all summer and that this was "HIS" team.  While you are at it, show me where I said they didn't say this...

BTW i guess you need the term Franchise cornerstone translated for you.    I know you heard FO repeatedly refer to Jaren as that.   What do you think that means?   He will be 4th-5th option on offense?    

 

16 hours ago, chipc3 said:

So I repeatedly have said you can't blame the coach every time you don't like outcomes. You have blamed the coach's consistently since Hollins and none pass your test. Perhaps it isn't the coaches or the system or the rookie PG. Perhaps it is simply that Jaren is what he is. He didn't stay on the court in college, he didn't stay on the court as a rookie and he hasn't been able to stay on the court this season.

Are we really going to blame this all on coaching and systems and other players? When does Jaren take responsibility for his failures? 

See you are primarily pointing to his fouling issues in accusing him of not developing.   (fouling is up around the league too).   Where did i say fouling is strictly a system or coaching issue?    I just correctly noted that games where Jaren is really involved offensively he seems to do better not fouling.  Also i think Jenkins should stop yanking him from court so quickly after fouls and let him learn the hard way how to manage them.    Jaren has to take responsibility for his lazy fouling.  Unlike you,  i am not ignoring the growth in his dribbling and shooting to create a narrative that he hasn't worked on his game this summer.   You are the only one jumping to that massive conclusion.     

Jaren still hasn't played a full season of NBA games yet.    He will improve on the fouling as he matures into his body (He grew another 2inches!!)   Playing for his 4th coach in 4 years.   Just went from being a surprising rookie to becoming focus of defenses.  Still averaging 14ppg in only 26mpg with no plays ran for him and infrequent touches.    Imagine how good he could be if the Coach actually developed a scheme to maximize what he can do and he stops fouling out. 

   Yet some of ya'll want to completely write him off??  

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