PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan

Jenkins system has not,is not and will never work.

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50 minutes ago, costarica2 said:

What I'm trying to say is that age doesn't matter you should hold ALL our players to that standard not just a few.

Developing never stops even at age 30.

What you posted is just for Jaren to single him out which is unfair you don't hold any other player to that.

 

How is it not fair?  When Jaren has a few seasons experience and his development plateaus, AS ALL PLAYERS DO, the expectation of developmenr will be the same for him as the veterans today.

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27 minutes ago, costarica2 said:

Is not unfair to Jaren at all I'm just trying to say Jaren and EVERYONE should be included on that list what's on unfair is how you don't hold other players to the same list for some reason.

So, by your judgment Atlanta should be holding 41year old Vince Carter to the same standard of development as Trae Young?

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'Chip make that list just for Jaren you are fool if you think otherwise.

Yea sure he didn't really said but it's quite clear I'm just telling him all our players should be included on it not just Jaren.

We been here for years why didn't this list and expectations came up before??:ph34r:Why now??I'm a clear JV hater(his fans annoy me) I made it clear and have own it I don't sugar coat it or are afraid to say it I don't need to make a list.

If you don't like Jaren is ok no body is going hurt you if you just admit it ....no need to set all this list and unreal expectations day in and day out.

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1 minute ago, costarica2 said:

'Chip make that list just for Jaren you are fool if you think otherwise.

Yea sure he didn't really said but it's quite clear I'm just telling him all our players should be included on it not just Jaren.

We been here for years why didn't this list and expectations came up before??:ph34r:Why now??I'm a clear JV hater(his fans annoy me) I made it clear and have own it I don't sugar coat it or are afraid to say it I don't need make a list.

If you don't like Jaren is ok no body is going hurt you if you just admit it no need to set all this list and unreal expectations day in and day out.

this was painful 

 

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I can't speak for Chip, but I like Jaren a lot.  But in the real world you expect young players to progress in their development.  No, you don't expect older vets to develop much.  Their bodies have finished growing and their motor skills are what they are.  The only changes they make are from experience.  Young players are still growing, motor skills are still developing, they are learning to play at a new level and have to learn to adapt to their role, so there is much more development expected.

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10 hours ago, costarica2 said:

You don't show it though all you do it is attack JJJ for some reason.

Hold other players to your golden list on a regular basis once in a while.

Track all our player summers and bring us a report on how they did not work out and spend it fishing or on TV.

 

Are you somehow related to JJJ?

You just said "I don't show it" but "all do is attack JJJ." If  I am not showing perhaps you are misconstruing legitimate comments into some sort of slight I don't intend. Take me for what I write and don't push your biases onto me please.

I have said JJJ didn't work as hard this past summer as I wanted. I was asked to not say anything critical of him until the end of the season and I have agreed. Repeatedly in this thread I have said that I am not making this about JJJ but any rookie and still you come crying about me being mean to JJJ. I am not saying anything about JJJ in this thread. I am repeatedly saying that this is a standard for anyone to judge improvement and therefore it applies to JJJ as well as any one else.

You have attempted to bring age into it and veteran status and who knows what else. I have not played that game and yet you insist on claiming that an objective standard - that you agree with - that can be applied to any rookie is somehow a slight on JJJ. It's not. Either accept that truth and move on or go cry to someone else. I can't say it any more clearly.  

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9 hours ago, costarica2 said:

'Chip make that list just for Jaren you are fool if you think otherwise.

Yea sure he didn't really said but it's quite clear I'm just telling him all our players should be included on it not just Jaren.

We been here for years why didn't this list and expectations came up before??:ph34r:Why now??I'm a clear JV hater(his fans annoy me) I made it clear and have own it I don't sugar coat it or are afraid to say it I don't need to make a list.

If you don't like Jaren is ok no body is going hurt you if you just admit it ....no need to set all this list and unreal expectations day in and day out.

Okay. I apologize for expecting a player fan to understand logic. Clearly the mistake was mine in thinking I was talking to someone with an open mind. 

To simplify this and attempt to answer your question if you go back to my original post you will see I was answering someone's question on what should be a fair definition of improvement for JJJ. I gave what I felt was a fair definition of improvement for any rookie or veteran which should be applied to Jaren the same as any other rookie. IF you want to know why Jaren suddenly has a need to have this definition applied to him (despite the obvious that he is a rookie) then perhaps you be address the originator of the post who did single out Jaren and not the person who gave an objective and universal response. 

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10 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

I can't speak for Chip, but I like Jaren a lot.  But in the real world you expect young players to progress in their development.  No, you don't expect older vets to develop much.  Their bodies have finished growing and their motor skills are what they are.  The only changes they make are from experience.  Young players are still growing, motor skills are still developing, they are learning to play at a new level and have to learn to adapt to their role, so there is much more development expected.

Great point was brought up this morning on Sports56 in regards to Jaren.    Someone else on the boards alluded to the same point (sorry can't remember who).   

We are forgetting that Jaren was considered a "project" from day one.   His sheer talent fooled us into thinking he was further along than he actually is.     Jaren has had 4 different coaches in the last 4yrs for a young kid to learn a new system a year is pretty impressive and difficult. 

 The biggest issue is that nobody knows what Jaren is ultimately supposed to be.    Is he going to be a Stretch 4 or 5?   Big that plays like a Wing?    Post scorer or slasher?      Primary scorer or spot up shooter?    The fact that he can do all those things is great but the problem that presents is "identity crisis".    Ja's role is extremely simple - he is the ball dominant PG that can score or distribute.   There is no confusion with what his role is in this offense.    Brandon role is simple and clear - roll to the rim and catch and shoot.   Notice even vet guys that have struggled was due to them having unclear roles (SloMo and Jonas).    JB changed SloMo's role and his play suffered TJ took a minute to get SloMo back in right role (playmaker) and he has been flourshing.   Jonas production has gone back up as his role has slipped back to interior presence.    He was sucking when TJ had him floating more around the arc like Jaren.    How do you all think Jaren's lack of clear role(identity) in this system is affecting him?   He goes from Stretch 4 role to Interior 5 every night.   From being paired with traditional 5 to be sole 5.    That is difficult for a young kid still trying to grow into his own frame.    

Wendall Carter and DeAndre Ayton don't have that same obstacle to overcome.   From day one they were going to be the Center.   Their paths are clear.   Jaren still doesn't know if his final role will be PF or C/ Offensive focal or complimentary and Taylor isn't doing him any favors right now.    Everybody isn't the same - some people can play in an open system and some need more structure.   Neither approach is wrong.    This team needs more clearly defined pecking order and roles.   I think it hurts player development when the offense is too "equal opportunity".    Taylor's biggest challenge will be how he handles Ja Jaren and Brandon's development and that's the only criteria i am judging him by today. 

I do think Jaren needs to continue working on improving rebounding an playing with purpose.   I just think the system needs to be tweaked to help the young players more. 

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11 hours ago, costarica2 said:

'Chip make that list just for Jaren you are fool if you think otherwise.

Yea sure he didn't really said but it's quite clear I'm just telling him all our players should be included on it not just Jaren.

We been here for years why didn't this list and expectations came up before??:ph34r:Why now??I'm a clear JV hater(his fans annoy me) I made it clear and have own it I don't sugar coat it or are afraid to say it I don't need to make a list.

If you don't like Jaren is ok no body is going hurt you if you just admit it ....no need to set all this list and unreal expectations day in and day out.

so you are admitting ...that you are.... one pathetic loser....good for you....respect...

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3 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Great point was brought up this morning on Sports56 in regards to Jaren.    Someone else on the boards alluded to the same point (sorry can't remember who).   

We are forgetting that Jaren was considered a "project" from day one.   His sheer talent fooled us into thinking he was further along than he actually is.     Jaren has had 4 different coaches in the last 4yrs for a young kid to learn a new system a year is pretty impressive and difficult. 

 The biggest issue is that nobody knows what Jaren is ultimately supposed to be.    Is he going to be a Stretch 4 or 5?   Big that plays like a Wing?    Post scorer or slasher?      Primary scorer or spot up shooter?    The fact that he can do all those things is great but the problem that presents is "identity crisis".    Ja's role is extremely simple - he is the ball dominant PG that can score or distribute.   There is no confusion with what his role is in this offense.    Brandon role is simple and clear - roll to the rim and catch and shoot.   Notice even vet guys that have struggled was due to them having unclear roles (SloMo and Jonas).    JB changed SloMo's role and his play suffered TJ took a minute to get SloMo back in right role (playmaker) and he has been flourshing.   Jonas production has gone back up as his role has slipped back to interior presence.    He was sucking when TJ had him floating more around the arc like Jaren.    How do you all think Jaren's lack of clear role(identity) in this system is affecting him?   He goes from Stretch 4 role to Interior 5 every night.   From being paired with traditional 5 to be sole 5.    That is difficult for a young kid still trying to grow into his own frame.    

Wendall Carter and DeAndre Ayton don't have that same obstacle to overcome.   From day one they were going to be the Center.   Their paths are clear.   Jaren still doesn't know if his final role will be PF or C/ Offensive focal or complimentary and Taylor isn't doing him any favors right now.    Everybody isn't the same - some people can play in an open system and some need more structure.   Neither approach is wrong.    This team needs more clearly defined pecking order and roles.   I think it hurts player development when the offense is too "equal opportunity".    Taylor's biggest challenge will be how he handles Ja Jaren and Brandon's development and that's the only criteria i am judging him by today. 

I do think Jaren needs to continue working on improving rebounding an playing with purpose.   I just think the system needs to be tweaked to help the young players more. 

Yeah, Jaren is a hard guy to figure out.  

He's a kid though.  Lots of "upside" because of his versatile offensive game/potential.

He just reminds me of a bunch of different guys -- although maybe not any ONE guy.

Would love to know where he is on his developmental growth curve.  Then, how high does that curve go???

Like how many guys (any???) are projected to have go-to shots being, basically, 3 pointers and sky hooks???

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I don’t believe I have ever heard someone say a rookie PG role’s is simple while a PF’s role is complicated before. 

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20 hours ago, chipc3 said:

I’d say improvement should be based on the following criteria:

1) Minutes Played Per Game

2) Points Per Game

3) Rebounds Per Game

4) Blocks Per Game

5) Assists Per Game

6) Field Goal Percentage 

7) Fouls Per Game

If I trusted a consistent system of advanced stats I’d do offensive and defensive efficiency numbers but they vary from site to site. 

I’d like to see improvement in greater than 60% of these categories.

Good detailed answer

We can review at ASB and again at end of season

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1 hour ago, PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan said:

the role of a pg is simple...how good you are at learning that role is another story.

Agreed, it provides the most room for error, but essentially we're just telling Ja go do what you do. Jaren is a tweener. He still has the quickness to keep up with most 4s, but he wants to defend the paint and some 4s are going to be quicker than him. Most 5s are stronger than him still at this point. He has a huge skillset because he can really do everything on the court. He has to learn how to exploit his defender.

Let me put it like this, and this is a serious question for everyone, how many players can be a legitimate lob target/rim runner, that can score in the post, can handle the ball close to the level of a guard and get to the rim, but can also step out and hit the 3 pretty consistently? 

I can only think of maybe 2, and that's Giannis and mainly Anthony Davis. He's not as athletic as Giannis, and doesn't have the post game of AD, but he's not that far off in either category. 

I wish he would study AD incredibly closely. He is so good at getting early position and having the ball thrown over a defender that is fronting him. He's a constant lob threat in the pick and roll (this is where I want jaren to improve the most on offense), but you can also just give him the ball and get out of the way as well. 

Defensively, Jaren is a work in progress. He's got the length and quickness, now it's just about basketball IQ. I saw Jae and Melton both chewing into him last game and I think he will get smarter on that side of the ball. 

Keep in mind he's still the youngest player on the team. 

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12 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Great point was brought up this morning on Sports56 in regards to Jaren.    Someone else on the boards alluded to the same point (sorry can't remember who).   

We are forgetting that Jaren was considered a "project" from day one.   His sheer talent fooled us into thinking he was further along than he actually is.     Jaren has had 4 different coaches in the last 4yrs for a young kid to learn a new system a year is pretty impressive and difficult. 

 The biggest issue is that nobody knows what Jaren is ultimately supposed to be.    Is he going to be a Stretch 4 or 5?   Big that plays like a Wing?    Post scorer or slasher?      Primary scorer or spot up shooter?    The fact that he can do all those things is great but the problem that presents is "identity crisis".    Ja's role is extremely simple - he is the ball dominant PG that can score or distribute.   There is no confusion with what his role is in this offense.    Brandon role is simple and clear - roll to the rim and catch and shoot.   Notice even vet guys that have struggled was due to them having unclear roles (SloMo and Jonas).    JB changed SloMo's role and his play suffered TJ took a minute to get SloMo back in right role (playmaker) and he has been flourshing.   Jonas production has gone back up as his role has slipped back to interior presence.    He was sucking when TJ had him floating more around the arc like Jaren.    How do you all think Jaren's lack of clear role(identity) in this system is affecting him?   He goes from Stretch 4 role to Interior 5 every night.   From being paired with traditional 5 to be sole 5.    That is difficult for a young kid still trying to grow into his own frame.    

Wendall Carter and DeAndre Ayton don't have that same obstacle to overcome.   From day one they were going to be the Center.   Their paths are clear.   Jaren still doesn't know if his final role will be PF or C/ Offensive focal or complimentary and Taylor isn't doing him any favors right now.    Everybody isn't the same - some people can play in an open system and some need more structure.   Neither approach is wrong.    This team needs more clearly defined pecking order and roles.   I think it hurts player development when the offense is too "equal opportunity".    Taylor's biggest challenge will be how he handles Ja Jaren and Brandon's development and that's the only criteria i am judging him by today. 

I do think Jaren needs to continue working on improving rebounding an playing with purpose.   I just think the system needs to be tweaked to help the young players more. 

Bingo. I think once TJ clearly articulates to Jaren what his role is going to be, then Jaren's progress will happen quicker. 

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12 hours ago, Rdk4121 said:

Agreed, it provides the most room for error, but essentially we're just telling Ja go do what you do. Jaren is a tweener. He still has the quickness to keep up with most 4s, but he wants to defend the paint and some 4s are going to be quicker than him. Most 5s are stronger than him still at this point. He has a huge skillset because he can really do everything on the court. He has to learn how to exploit his defender.

Let me put it like this, and this is a serious question for everyone, how many players can be a legitimate lob target/rim runner, that can score in the post, can handle the ball close to the level of a guard and get to the rim, but can also step out and hit the 3 pretty consistently? 

I can only think of maybe 2, and that's Giannis and mainly Anthony Davis. He's not as athletic as Giannis, and doesn't have the post game of AD, but he's not that far off in either category. 

I wish he would study AD incredibly closely. He is so good at getting early position and having the ball thrown over a defender that is fronting him. He's a constant lob threat in the pick and roll (this is where I want jaren to improve the most on offense), but you can also just give him the ball and get out of the way as well. 

Defensively, Jaren is a work in progress. He's got the length and quickness, now it's just about basketball IQ. I saw Jae and Melton both chewing into him last game and I think he will get smarter on that side of the ball. 

Keep in mind he's still the youngest player on the team. 

Anthony Davis Sophomore Season:
35.2 MPG, 51.9 FG%, 22.2 3pt%, 10.0 RPG, 1.6 APG, 2.8 BPG, 1.3 SPG, 20.8 PPG
Every single statistic was an improvement over his rookie of the year stats. 

Giannis Antetokounmpo Sophomore Season:
31.4 MPG, 49.1 FG%, 15.9 3pt%, 6.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.0 BPG, 0.9 SPG, 12.7 PPG
Every statistic improved from his rookie season except 3 pt%

Jaren Jackson Jr Sophomore Season (to Date):
26.7 MPG, 44.9 FG%, 38.7 3pt%, 4.9 RPG, 1.4 APG, 1.2 BPG, 0.5 SPG, 15.7 PPG
Improved in MPG, 3pt%, RPG. APG, and PPG

If we want to look at advanced statistics I will be glad to look those up for the players as well. I Just thought if people were going to be throwing out names of players to compare JJJ with that the actual numbers these players produced were pertinent to the conversation.  

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33 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Anthony Davis Sophomore Season:
35.2 MPG, 51.9 FG%, 22.2 3pt%, 10.0 RPG, 1.6 APG, 2.8 BPG, 1.3 SPG, 20.8 PPG
Every single statistic was an improvement over his rookie of the year stats. 

Giannis Antetokounmpo Sophomore Season:
31.4 MPG, 49.1 FG%, 15.9 3pt%, 6.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.0 BPG, 0.9 SPG, 12.7 PPG
Every statistic improved from his rookie season except 3 pt%

Jaren Jackson Jr Sophomore Season (to Date):
26.7 MPG, 44.9 FG%, 38.7 3pt%, 4.9 RPG, 1.4 APG, 1.2 BPG, 0.5 SPG, 15.7 PPG
Improved in MPG, 3pt%, RPG. APG, and PPG

If we want to look at advanced statistics I will be glad to look those up for the players as well. I Just thought if people were going to be throwing out names of players to compare JJJ with that the actual numbers these players produced were pertinent to the conversation.  

Yeah, I guess we could also throw Siakam into this mix as well. 

Either way, just looking at those numbers Jaren is clearly ahead of where Giannis was (significantly ahead of Siakam's second year, but he wasn't good until his 3rd year), already a better three point shooter than any of them are currently as well. 

One stat that jumps out at me is minutes played. AD played 9 more minutes per game than jaren does, Giannis played 6 more minutes as well. Obviously this is mostly Jaren's fault given his foul issues, but per 36, Jaren matches Davis's scoring output and is fairly close on the other categories. AD still has the clear advantage, but Jaren's numbers are very respectable. Jaren's per 36 numbers are arguably better than either Pascal's (who won most improved player that year) or Giannis's per 36 numbers from year 3.

Clearly has a few areas to work on, but overall I think he's on schedule and improving. 

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16 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

Yeah, I guess we could also throw Siakam into this mix as well. 

Either way, just looking at those numbers Jaren is clearly ahead of where Giannis was (significantly ahead of Siakam's second year, but he wasn't good until his 3rd year), already a better three point shooter than any of them are currently as well. 

One stat that jumps out at me is minutes played. AD played 9 more minutes per game than jaren does, Giannis played 6 more minutes as well. Obviously this is mostly Jaren's fault given his foul issues, but per 36, Jaren matches Davis's scoring output and is fairly close on the other categories. AD still has the clear advantage, but Jaren's numbers are very respectable. Jaren's per 36 numbers are arguably better than either Pascal's (who won most improved player that year) or Giannis's per 36 numbers from year 3.

Clearly has a few areas to work on, but overall I think he's on schedule and improving. 

Jaren is ahead of Giannis after his second season? Giannis was playing more minutes, averaging a higher FG%, more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Jaren leads Giannis in points per game (on a worse team), 3 pt% and blocks (1.0 to 1.2). I don't know if that sets Jaren ahead of Giannis. 

Pascal Siakam sophomore Season:
20.7 MPG, 50.8 FG%, 22.0 3pt%, 4.5 RPG, 2.0 APG, 0.8 SPG, 0.5 BPG, 7.3 PPG  
Pascall improved in all but one of these categories from his rookie season (BPG was down). 

I have been routinely criticized for setting his standard but I honestly believe it isn't the absolute numbers but the signs of improvement that people should look to see in a second season. This is my issue with Jaren so far this year but I will withhold a final appraisal until the end of the year. 

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34 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Jaren is ahead of Giannis after his second season? Giannis was playing more minutes, averaging a higher FG%, more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Jaren leads Giannis in points per game (on a worse team), 3 pt% and blocks (1.0 to 1.2). I don't know if that sets Jaren ahead of Giannis. 

Pascal Siakam sophomore Season:
20.7 MPG, 50.8 FG%, 22.0 3pt%, 4.5 RPG, 2.0 APG, 0.8 SPG, 0.5 BPG, 7.3 PPG  
Pascall improved in all but one of these categories from his rookie season (BPG was down). 

I have been routinely criticized for setting his standard but I honestly believe it isn't the absolute numbers but the signs of improvement that people should look to see in a second season. This is my issue with Jaren so far this year but I will withhold a final appraisal until the end of the year. 

Yeah I am very dissappointed that Jaren still does the same ole left handed hesitation and drive and hasnt added any moves. Most predictable player I have ever seen one on one.

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3 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Yeah I am very dissappointed that Jaren still does the same ole left handed hesitation and drive and hasnt added any moves. Most predictable player I have ever seen one on one.

I am still holding out that he will improve. I am just disappointed we haven't seen more this season but I am holding out any criticism until the end of the season.  

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He just has to control his fouls. Obviously it would be nice if he was a better rebounder, but I think he'll get better as he gets stronger. 

In games in which Jaren has played more than 30 minutes (6 games, 32.5 minutes per game) , he has averaged 20.6 points, 1.67 blocks, 6.16 rebounds, and 2.5 assists. Those are really good numbers, and very encouraging as to his potential. Coincidentally, he only averaged 3.1 fouls per game in those 6 games. 

Now in games he's played less than 23 minutes (also 6 games, 19 minutes per game) he averaged 10.3 points, .6 blocks, .83 assists, and 3 rebounds. And his scoring is completely inflated by a 28 point outburst in 22 minutes against Indiana. He averaged 4.83 fouls per game in those 6 games. 

If he can average over 30 minutes per game, then he can average over 20 points a game easily. 

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27 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

He just has to control his fouls. Obviously it would be nice if he was a better rebounder, but I think he'll get better as he gets stronger. 

In games in which Jaren has played more than 30 minutes (6 games, 32.5 minutes per game) , he has averaged 20.6 points, 1.67 blocks, 6.16 rebounds, and 2.5 assists. Those are really good numbers, and very encouraging as to his potential. Coincidentally, he only averaged 3.1 fouls per game in those 6 games. 

Now in games he's played less than 23 minutes (also 6 games, 19 minutes per game) he averaged 10.3 points, .6 blocks, .83 assists, and 3 rebounds. And his scoring is completely inflated by a 28 point outburst in 22 minutes against Indiana. He averaged 4.83 fouls per game in those 6 games. 

If he can average over 30 minutes per game, then he can average over 20 points a game easily. 

Bingo. 

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Most of his outbursts this year appear to be heavily reliant on the jumpshot. I dont he will be very efficient as a jumpshot first player

 

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