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What's wrong with Jaren?

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I don't see much chemistry between Ja and Jaren or between Jaren and anyone else as a matter of fact.

If you go with "team chemistry" and the Showtime offense then you have to go with Ja, Dillon, Jae, Clarke, and Bruno.

Maybe you start Jaren/Jonas, and make it job number one to try and get Jaren going, let Jonas warm up and do his thing, then bring in Clarke/Bruno off the bench in the first rotation.  ... then when you give the perimeter guys a rest you put in Tyus, Kyle, and Marko (two play makers and a pump-fake scorer) in the game then you bring Jonas and Jaren back in.  Hopefully Jonas and Jaren abuse the other teams' bench mob.  

It's disconcerting that Jaren/Clarke don't have much chemistry (if true).  Since I guess we are looking at a "small ball" future front court duo with those two.  BUT, with the Lakers and Sixers bringing back big boy basketball maybe Clarke is either a 6th man or a "potential small forward" -- that might also make Jaren a dreaded "tweener".

For or offense to run and to create space, I think we need to run more Ja/Jaren pick and pops which would get Ja some open space and would also free up Jaren for good looks from 3.  You can still have Jonas inside in the low post, or Clarke down low as the lob threat.  Although whatever happens, our shooters have to make a high volume of 3's (Dillon, Jae, Marko).  

When/if Josh Jackson gets called up to the main roster we will again have to deal with minutes/touches/shots/chemistry issues/rotation management.

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Jaren's off to a rough start, but why do people keep acting like he didn't put in any work this offseason? Just because you saw him on TV and  videos of him making public appearances doesn't mean he wasn't working on his game. I didn't see training videos for most of the players in the league. Does that mean most of the league didn't work on their game as well?  We have no idea what he was doing. He might of sat on his couch eating ice cream, or he could have busted his *** more than he ever has in his life. We don't know.

Even if you don't think he's improved, it still doesn't mean he wasn't working on his game. We're only a few games into the season with a new coach and new team. Conley hasn't looked good for the Jazz. Does that means he's crap and was just a product of Grit n Grind? There's a big difference between working on something in a gym and doing it in a NBA game against NBA players with NBA refs that favor name players in front of thousands of people with your nerves and adrenaline pumping. Jae Crowder could have looked like Steph Curry in the gym this offseason, but not so much in the games.

There's things in a NBA game you can't simulate in training, and that includes fouling. Where's Jaren gonna practice not fouling KAT, Anthony Davis, or any number of elite basketball players of the world? That comes from game experience. There's no doubt he's got a fouling problem, but he's 20 and hasn't even played 82 games yet. 

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18 minutes ago, sativa417 said:

Jaren's off to a rough start, but why do people keep acting like he didn't put in any work this offseason? Just because you saw him on TV and  videos of him making public appearances doesn't mean he wasn't working on his game. I didn't see training videos for most of the players in the league. Does that mean most of the league didn't work on their game as well?  We have no idea what he was doing. He might of sat on his couch eating ice cream, or he could have busted his *** more than he ever has in his life. We don't know.

Even if you don't think he's improved, it still doesn't mean he wasn't working on his game. We're only a few games into the season with a new coach and new team. Conley hasn't looked good for the Jazz. Does that means he's crap and was just a product of Grit n Grind? There's a big difference between working on something in a gym and doing it in a NBA game against NBA players with NBA refs that favor name players in front of thousands of people with your nerves and adrenaline pumping. Jae Crowder could have looked like Steph Curry in the gym this offseason, but not so much in the games.

There's things in a NBA game you can't simulate in training, and that includes fouling. Where's Jaren gonna practice not fouling KAT, Anthony Davis, or any number of elite basketball players of the world? That comes from game experience. There's no doubt he's got a fouling problem, but he's 20 and hasn't even played 82 games yet. 

Back in the late 90s I started boxing, my coach told me that boxing like any other sport requires muscle memory.  To get to a point that you could react strictly off muscle memory took several years of doing the same thing over and over and over. It'll take Jaren time to develop the muscle memory,  I just worry if this system won't utilize him to his strengths or does the team suffer by trying to involve him?

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I thought I read on the boards last season that Marc Gasol was part of the problem and hindering JJJ's development?   He was too domineering and not speaking gently enough to the rookie when he made a mistake.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it was easier for JJJ to shine when he was playing with experienced vets like Conley, Temple, Gasol, Noah, etc and was just asked to be part of the team instead of playing with a newly formed team, new coaches, and with him expected to carry the load.

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9 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

Back in the late 90s I started boxing, my coach told me that boxing like any other sport requires muscle memory.  To get to a point that you could react strictly off muscle memory took several years of doing the same thing over and over and over. It'll take Jaren time to develop the muscle memory,  I just worry if this system won't utilize him to his strengths or does the team suffer by trying to involve him?

Yeah, "muscle memory" was what I was thinking while typing. Jaren also needs to continue to get stronger, which is something I do think he worked on this offseason. When I first saw him in preseason I thought he looked bigger, and he also hasn't been falling down as much, which is why I think Ja won't hit the floor as much next year. A lot of the guys with Jaren's body type might not foul as much, but they also suck on defense and aren't trying to guard their man or block their shot. As far as our system, I think/hope as the guys adjust to it our rookie coach also adjusts his system to the players and they find a middle ground. 

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8 hours ago, sativa417 said:

Jaren's off to a rough start, but why do people keep acting like he didn't put in any work this offseason? Just because you saw him on TV and  videos of him making public appearances doesn't mean he wasn't working on his game. I didn't see training videos for most of the players in the league. Does that mean most of the league didn't work on their game as well?  We have no idea what he was doing. He might of sat on his couch eating ice cream, or he could have busted his *** more than he ever has in his life. We don't know.

Even if you don't think he's improved, it still doesn't mean he wasn't working on his game. We're only a few games into the season with a new coach and new team. Conley hasn't looked good for the Jazz. Does that means he's crap and was just a product of Grit n Grind? There's a big difference between working on something in a gym and doing it in a NBA game against NBA players with NBA refs that favor name players in front of thousands of people with your nerves and adrenaline pumping. Jae Crowder could have looked like Steph Curry in the gym this offseason, but not so much in the games.

There's things in a NBA game you can't simulate in training, and that includes fouling. Where's Jaren gonna practice not fouling KAT, Anthony Davis, or any number of elite basketball players of the world? That comes from game experience. There's no doubt he's got a fouling problem, but he's 20 and hasn't even played 82 games yet. 

One of the more sensible posts in this thread.

chipc3 keeps trying to sell this narrative that JJJ did nothing all summer except gallivanting around the country for public appearances  He hasn't shown significant improvement yet, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't put in work.  I'm not buying that idea.  As the offspring of basketball professionals I'm pretty sure he knows the importance of training in the off-season, so i'm betting he worked on it.

Good post, Sativa.

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If I remember correctly, Jaren had a growth spurt late in high school, going from shooting guard to big man. I think he is still trying to get used to that bigger body. A lot of his fouls come from moves that would be normal for a guard, but are too obviously a foul when done by a big man. He plays clumsily, which is a common thing when you are trying to get used to different perspectives due to increased size.

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What is it with this fan base and the dawg mentality.

Gasol and Conley had non of that ?we mix them with the Grindfather and ZBO and everything when well.

People here overrated that a little bit to much Jevon Carter is a good example...sure he was a DAWG but the guy had no skills he was/is trash.

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Jaren will be fine - just have to keep remembering that he is literally the youngest player on the team.     He was supposed to a project and maybe we need to handle him that way.        

Probably best to either just allow him to play thru his fouls or bring him off the bench to backup Jonas.    I still think half the issue is that our system and players are not accustomed to playing with two Bigs that need touches.      Jaren should get himself going INSIDE-OUT and Jonas needs to just stay INSIDE.   This five out stuff and having JV launch 3s isn't good.         5 out is better when Kyle Bruno and BC are your frontcourt.    Let JV and Jaren post up.    I still think Jaren + Jonas isn't a good match and not being able to see that last season was a tragedy.   

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Because as it currently stands - Jaren really is the 4th option in the starting lineup.     Think about it.

Jonas is the best post player.   Ja is the best slasher/off dribble creator.   Dillon is the best floor spacer.    Jaren isn't a better option over any of them today.     All he can do is be stretch 4 and camp out on the perimeter.      He really needs to develop himself as a 5 sooner than later.  

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All Jaren needs to do is get an acting coach to get rid of the scolded little beagle puppy look that has done something wrong - everytime he gets a foul.    The rest would take care of itself.

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12 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612763/lineups-advanced/?CF=MIN*GE*8&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

*Small- sample size Alert*

But of the lineups that have played more than 8 total mins together (blame Jenkins weird rotation minutes).  

JV + KA + TJ + GA + Marko has best netrtg of +33.6 (anomaly obviously)

TJ + DB + JC + BC + JJJ is the worst with netrtg of -0.8  

I noticed two lowest rated lineups had JJJ + BC   and highest had either JV or Clarke or both.  

 

IMHO Ja + Jaren have very little chemistry and neither does BC + JJJ  - that is a problem.    Whatever system TJ has in mind it is ridiculous if it doesn't maximize his 3 young stars.   TJ needs to put a focus on playing those 3 together and figuring out how to best utilize them together.   Not all this random rotation crap or strictly evaluating the role players at expense of them developing together. 

 

Small sample size is all you needed to say.

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2 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Jaren will be fine - just have to keep remembering that he is literally the youngest player on the team.     He was supposed to a project and maybe we need to handle him that way.        

Probably best to either just allow him to play thru his fouls or bring him off the bench to backup Jonas.    I still think half the issue is that our system and players are not accustomed to playing with two Bigs that need touches.      Jaren should get himself going INSIDE-OUT and Jonas needs to just stay INSIDE.   This five out stuff and having JV launch 3s isn't good.         5 out is better when Kyle Bruno and BC are your frontcourt.    Let JV and Jaren post up.    I still think Jaren + Jonas isn't a good match and not being able to see that last season was a tragedy.   

I agree systems should be utilized to show off your best talent not stifle them. But J3 is not a Center he and Jonas can work just both need the ball in their hands to be more effective. 

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4 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Jaren will be fine - just have to keep remembering that he is literally the youngest player on the team.     He was supposed to a project and maybe we need to handle him that way.        

Probably best to either just allow him to play thru his fouls or bring him off the bench to backup Jonas.    I still think half the issue is that our system and players are not accustomed to playing with two Bigs that need touches.      Jaren should get himself going INSIDE-OUT and Jonas needs to just stay INSIDE.   This five out stuff and having JV launch 3s isn't good.         5 out is better when Kyle Bruno and BC are your frontcourt.    Let JV and Jaren post up.    I still think Jaren + Jonas isn't a good match and not being able to see that last season was a tragedy.   

The system i.e. the coach is not accustomed. 

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5 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Because as it currently stands - Jaren really is the 4th option in the starting lineup.     Think about it.

Jonas is the best post player.   Ja is the best slasher/off dribble creator.   Dillon is the best floor spacer.    Jaren isn't a better option over any of them today.     All he can do is be stretch 4 and camp out on the perimeter.      He really needs to develop himself as a 5 sooner than later.  

You say this today because Dillon had a good game yesterday but when he regresses to his mean standard the next game or the one after, you still gonna have him as our 3rd option?

All he can do is be a stretch4 and camp out at the perimeter? That's why Jaren is playing like crap, because that's all his current role has been. C'mon brother, have you already forgotten the SAC game or BKN game from last year, to mention a few?

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5 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

One of the more sensible posts in this thread.

chipc3 keeps trying to sell this narrative that JJJ did nothing all summer except gallivanting around the country for public appearances  He hasn't shown significant improvement yet, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't put in work.  I'm not buying that idea.  As the offspring of basketball professionals I'm pretty sure he knows the importance of training in the off-season, so i'm betting he worked on it.

Good post, Sativa.

Has Chip ever given consideration to maybe the FO directed him to make some or many of those public appearances? Probably not.

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I can't believe you guys can't see that Jaren and Brandon are playing completely different roles on offense. How would Brandon be doing if he was asked to stay camped out at the perimeter and take many more 3s? 

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Jaren's % of shot attempts for 2 have gone down from 75.9% to 63.2%, and his % of shot attempts for 3 have gone up from 24.1% to 36.8% but his made 3s has gone from 35.9% to 23.8%.

He is taking more shots from 3, less from 2, but is missing more from 3.

That is just a clear disaster occurring but you guys want him as "stretch 4" camped out on the perimeter? No wonder he is playing so $h!t.

With Brandon, 87.5% of his shot attempts are from 2pt range, and 81% of his made points are from 2 range. Brandon is shooting 28.6% from 3. He didn't take any 3 attempts in the last game. How would he look if 40% of his shot attempts were from 3?

But yet, you guys are comparing the two and jumping to the conclusion, "Brandon is better." That's laughable, I thought you guys knew more about BB than this.

What I wanna know is why is Jenkins doing this? Where's Hollinger or anybody to tell this coach the advanced stats and how he is killing Jaren?

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1 minute ago, BigHunkALove said:

Jaren's % of shot attempts for 2 have gone down from 75.9% to 63.2%, and his % of shot attempts for 3 have gone up from 24.1% to 36.8% but his made 3s has gone from 35.9% to 23.8%. That is just a clear disaster occurring but you guys want him as "stretch 4" camped out on the perimeter? No wonder he is playing so $h!t.

 With Brandon, 87.5% of his shot attempts are from 2pt range, and 81% of his made points are from 2 range. But yet, you guys are comparing the two and jumping to the conclusion, "Brandon is better." That's laughable, I thought you guys knew more about BB than this.

What I wanna know is why is Jenkins doing this? Where's Hollinger or anybody to tell this coach the advanced stats and how he is killing Jaren?

He's taking fewer shots because he's playing fewer minutes because he can't stay on the court, his 2 point % is also down on last. If he was hitting those 3s at the same percentage then taking more would be a good thing but the sample size is incredibly small still, especially for 3 point shooting.

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The other comment I've noticed being made that needs pulling up is (to paraphrase) we don't have anyone who can make inside passes into the paint, so we can't have Jaren in the paint.

Seriously?

Someone on this team better learn how to do this quick smart then. 

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8 minutes ago, UkGrizz said:

He's taking fewer shots because he's playing fewer minutes because he can't stay on the court, his 2 point % is also down on last. If he was hitting those 3s at the same percentage then taking more would be a good thing but the sample size is incredibly small still, especially for 3 point shooting.

Who said he's taking fewer shots?

I'm talking about PROPORTION of shots from 2 and from 3.

The bolded bit is just rubbish, he fouled at the same rate last year so why should this affect his proportion of shot type?

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JV has gone from 20ppg in first season in Memphis to 11.6 ppg,

His minutes are 21.7mpg this season compared with 27.7 when he joined Memphis last season. He is playing 6 fewer minutes but his scoring has gone down by nearly a whopping 10ppg. His % of shot attempts from 2 has almost always been 90% or more but this season has fallen to 83% and his % of 3pts attempts has almost tripled to 16.4% Lucky for him he is making them at 36% or he'd be looking every bit as bad as Jaren looks.

 

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21 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

Who said he's taking fewer shots?

I'm talking about PROPORTION of shots from 2 and from 3.

The bolded bit is just rubbish, he fouled at the same rate last year so why should this affect his proportion of shot type?

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jacksja02.html

He is taking just over 1 more 3 a game and taking 1.7 fewer 2 point shots on a tiny sample size where he's playing 2.5 fewer minutes. He's one of the better 3 point shooters on the roster, I don't think him taking 3.5 a game is a problem. 

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3 minutes ago, UkGrizz said:

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jacksja02.html

He is taking just over 1 more 3 a game and taking 1.7 fewer 2 point shots on a tiny sample size where he's playing 2.5 fewer minutes. He's one of the better 3 point shooters on the roster, I don't think him taking 3.5 a game is a problem. 

It is when you are shooting them at 24%

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2 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

It is when you are shooting them at 24%

He's only had 21 attempts it's not a reasonable sample size. 

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