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PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan

Our bigs are suffering in Jenkins system...

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9 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

All i am saying is that Jenkins system isn't crafted for Two Bigs.     He wants space and pace and even mentioned 5 out.    How is that good for a player like Jonas? 

 The only time JOnas and Jaren have had scoring success is when its been 4 out offense.    Outside of Jonas being a counter to JJJ rebounding woes they do not fit together well. 

 I like Jonas and think he can be a useful piece or change of pace player.  I understood the logic in resigning him but unfortunately they had to do it without having all the data.   Heck they barely had a coach when he resigned.   Other issue was/is that Jaren is still developing.   Nobody knew how to best utilize him this summer which means they are now discovering it on the fly.    Perching him in the corner as a standstill shooter seems like a waste.   Giving him the ball at top of the key expecting him to create off the dribble when you got a Big in the paint seems foolish too.    Jaren looks better when he gets multiple post touches (since he isn't really a rim runner) to get him into the flow.    Well thats the same thing Jonas needs.   So who should get priority?  

I say pull a page from Fizdale books when he separated Marc and Zbo.   Do ya'll remember why he did that?     

  • Help our defense because Zbo was getting killed in PnRoll in starting lineup
  • Space the floor for Mike drives and scoring
  • Force Gasol to look for his own offense more.
  • Let Zbo be focal of scoring starved bench unit. 

Hmm seems like those reasons apply this season as well. 

Seems like to me those results didn't pan out as well as those before.  Seems like Fiz is having the same problems and results now in NY. I think tonight' game just blew away your hopes, 42 points 16 rebounds. The problem is all the other guys think they should be stars as well instead of roll players except for Ja.

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On 11/10/2019 at 6:56 PM, smit-tay griz said:

The point was that you don't bench quality veteran players ahead of a project player.  If a FO feels that strongly about a young player they will likely move the vets to make way for him, rather than create a bad vibe on the team.

My point is you don't let average or slightly above average veterans stand in the way of your young player if you think your young guy can be a star. This is especially true when your team is not competing. 

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9 hours ago, LuvThem Grizzlies said:

Seems like to me those results didn't pan out as well as those before.  Seems like Fiz is having the same problems and results now in NY. I think tonight' game just blew away your hopes, 42 points 16 rebounds. The problem is all the other guys think they should be stars as well instead of roll players except for Ja.

Nope wrong again.  Last night proved my point.    TJ changed up his system from 5 out to 4 out.    Jaren and Jonas did mostly play apart till the last 3mins.     He  kept one of them on the floor at all times.   We didn't see Bruno or Kyle at Center.     Jaren and Jonas got multiple post touches like i said they should.    JJJ wasn't playing like a guard last night he played like a Big that can hit 3s.  

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8 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Nope wrong again.  Last night proved my point.    TJ changed up his system from 5 out to 4 out.    Jaren and Jonas did mostly play apart till the last 3mins.     He  kept one of them on the floor at all times.   We didn't see Bruno or Kyle at Center.     Jaren and Jonas got multiple post touches like i said they should.    JJJ wasn't playing like a guard last night he played like a Big that can hit 3s.  

Playing 4 out really means we should be bring JV off the bench, particularly if we're going to mostly alternate them anyway. That would mean Brandon starts, which would be perfect for us as he can hit the occasional 3, but can also attack from the perimeter and get to his floater. If JV comes off the bench, maybe that means Bruno can play more with Kyle going to the 3 more than the 4. 

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3 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

Playing 4 out really means we should be bring JV off the bench, particularly if we're going to mostly alternate them anyway. That would mean Brandon starts, which would be perfect for us as he can hit the occasional 3, but can also attack from the perimeter and get to his floater. If JV comes off the bench, maybe that means Bruno can play more with Kyle going to the 3 more than the 4. 

Yea i think bringing JV off the bench and starting Brandon would actually make it easier for both Jaren and Ja to get going.      Ja seems to get into a groove by either scoring or passing so putting an easy lob PickNroll target like BC with him can accomplish that.   Having Jaren as the sole interior Big also helps get him established too.     

Ja/Tyus

Dillon/Marko

Jae/Kyle

Brandon/Bruno

Jaren/Jonas

Sneaky development within TJ system is that Kyle is getting more point guard duties and developing chemistry with Tyus.     They are both solid passers so should be able to make Jonas offensive focal of 2nd unit. 

I think that lineup rotation allows the guys that need to develop chemistry time to do that.  

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8 hours ago, lsugrizzfan said:

My point is you don't let average or slightly above average veterans stand in the way of your young player if you think your young guy can be a star. This is especially true when your team is not competing. 

First the discussion was about a "project player".  If you think your young guy can be a star he isn't a "project player".  Hasheem Thabeet was a "project player", which IMO is just a guy you hope can be a serviceable or rotation player, not a star.  Secondly, Jonas Valanciunas is not an "average or slightly above average" center in this league.  Since there are probably 60 or 70 centers in the NBA and Jonas is at least in the top half of all starters at that position, he is definitely better than "slightly above average".

Maybe we have different definitions of what a project player is.  Anyway I think we can probably both agree that Jaren is better than my definition of a project player.  We may however, disagree about moving JV to the bench.  If that's the plan he should just be traded to a team where he can start, rather than stick it to him after he was signed to a contract with expectations of being the starter here.  Anything else would probably create a lot of bad feelings, both with him, and around the league.

I think the way Jenkins worked it in last night's game was fine.  They both started, they both got significant minutes, and for a good deal of the game the were separated in their minutes, but both got plenty of touches and shot opportunities.

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15 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

First the discussion was about a "project player".  If you think your young guy can be a star he isn't a "project player".  Hasheem Thabeet was a "project player", which IMO is just a guy you hope can be a serviceable or rotation player, not a star.  Secondly, Jonas Valanciunas is not an "average or slightly above average" center in this league.  Since there are probably 60 or 70 centers in the NBA and Jonas is at least in the top half of all starters at that position, he is definitely better than "slightly above average".

Maybe we have different definitions of what a project player is.  Anyway I think we can probably both agree that Jaren is better than my definition of a project player.  We may however, disagree about moving JV to the bench.  If that's the plan he should just be traded to a team where he can start, rather than stick it to him after he was signed to a contract with expectations of being the starter here.  Anything else would probably create a lot of bad feelings, both with him, and around the league.

I think the way Jenkins worked it in last night's game was fine.  They both started, they both got significant minutes, and for a good deal of the game the were separated in their minutes, but both got plenty of touches and shot opportunities.

Where I started on this was a discussion of whether or not Jonas and Jaren could play together. I said it was too early to tell, but if they cannot, you move Jonas, to the bench or trade, wouldn't matter. You don't let Jonas stand in the way of developing Jaren.

As far as Jonas being in the top half of centers, not sure I agree or disagree. I just don't care. Even if he is in the top half of starting centers, the way the game is played these days, that position being played with Jonas' style is not as effective as it once was. So yeah Jonas can be a good center. He still isn't anything more than a slightly above average player. No team is out there thinking that a healthy Jonas is putting them over the top. In fact, last year, Toronto thought a past his prime Marc Gasol was better than in his prime Jonas.

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this time last year JV was playing in Toronto system with Leonard, Siakim, Lowry etc that was pretty good team i think, CBS sports and NBA.com talked about him being a candidate for 6th man of the year.  Pretty valuable guy in a rotation that he can start and excel against the big centers and the paint, or come in with the second rotation and thrive in mis-matches... why would we let JV walk?  More importantly, he's 27....that role player can play and be effective well in to their 30's....

Re taking Marc, he did not live up to anyone's Raptor expectations...with exception of some good  D at times...and heck they did win the "title"....but Marcs play in the playoffs and this season pales to what JV brought or brings...except for D, but not by the margin everyone thinks...

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28 minutes ago, Lugan Village said:

this time last year JV was playing in Toronto system with Leonard, Siakim, Lowry etc that was pretty good team i think, CBS sports and NBA.com talked about him being a candidate for 6th man of the year.  Pretty valuable guy in a rotation that he can start and excel against the big centers and the paint, or come in with the second rotation and thrive in mis-matches... why would we let JV walk?  More importantly, he's 27....that role player can play and be effective well in to their 30's....

Re taking Marc, he did not live up to anyone's Raptor expectations...with exception of some good  D at times...and heck they did win the "title"....but Marcs play in the playoffs and this season pales to what JV brought or brings...except for D, but not by the margin everyone thinks...

Marc defended, spaced the floor and passed -- he gave the Raptors exactly what they needed.  

I didn't think Raptors fans thought they were getting "prime Marc" either.  

 

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Marc was underwhelming in playoffs and he worse 10 games into this season...with Ibaka hurt he has the opportunity to step up, but he's not able to...30 minutes a game, 35% FG, 6.5 rebounds...he is hurting them...ask the Raptors faithful...they would prefer JV...he did not and is not delivering...I think Boucher is likely going to start getting starts...but he is undersized..there is NO issue with Gasol's partying prowness...he is elite there!

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5 minutes ago, Lugan Village said:

Marc was underwhelming in playoffs and he worse 10 games into this season...with Ibaka hurt he has the opportunity to step up, but he's not able to...30 minutes a game, 35% FG, 6.5 rebounds...he is hurting them...ask the Raptors faithful...they would prefer JV...he did not and is not delivering...I think Boucher is likely going to start getting starts...but he is undersized..there is NO issue with Gasol's partying prowness...he is elite there!

Underwhelming in the playoffs? They wouldn't have beaten Philly were it not for him.

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6 minutes ago, srmjr23 said:

Underwhelming in the playoffs? They wouldn't have beaten Philly were it not for him.

If your referring to game 7 against Philly, that was his best game...so 45 minutes, 7 points and 11 boards...Embiid in about same minutes had 21 points and same boards...so he contained him/barely...but Gasol was really a non factor then, and he certainly is not this year. 

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2 minutes ago, Lugan Village said:

If your referring to game 7 against Philly, that was his best game...so 45 minutes, 7 points and 11 boards...Embiid in about same minutes had 21 points and same boards...so he contained him/barely...but Gasol was really a non factor then, and he certainly is not this year. 

I'm not arguing about this year. Ask any fan who watched that 7 game series and they will tell  you that Embiid was defended better by Marc than by most centers he'd faced. Not to mention that Jonas would have been absolutely demolished. They're different players. Marc didn't need to score for the Raptors to win. He had to make right decisions, play make, defend Embiid. Which was the beauty of Marc being on that team. He didn't have to be the 1st or 2nd option like he was here.

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season ticket holder for Raps...probably make 20 games a year...did not see "live" any of playoff games against Philly...they've played 6 times against each other, Jonas leads 4-2, see below not "really that much to choose one way or another against one of top centers in league, so not sure its accurate to say he would demolish JV...

 

Stats in Games Between JV and Embiid

Averages
Player
Points Rebounds Assists Steals Blocks
Joel Embiid 20.7 9.5 3.5 0.3 1.8
Jonas Valanciunas 16.0 8.0 1.2 0.3 0.5
 
Gasol in 5 games against Embiid did'nt fair better, less points/rebounds and a push on everything else

Stats in Games Between Gasol and Embiid

Averages
Player
Points Rebounds Assists Steals Blocks
Joel Embiid 16.1 10.3 3.3 0.7 1.7
Marc Gasol 11.8 5.9 3.2 1.0

1.3

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