Ole Dirty Klondike

What Can Be Done to Keep JJJ on the floor? What Options Do We Have?

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3 hours ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

Wiggins is a career 14.6 PER player, for a guy making 30 mil a year for the next 4 years, not good.

 

The max level 2ndary star we should always be looking after is D-Lo 

Ok and? He's a scorer. There are a lot of inefficient scorers and 15 is around avg for a wing. Nobody said the guy was perfect or a superstar. He's just a scorer. Who cares about his salary? Who else are we going to sign they're not trading him now that Thibs and Butler are gone. 

 

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3 hours ago, King Dork said:

You do realize I was the dude advocating for us to trade for him all summer with the bag of chips that is Chandler Parsons right? 

Good for you. People always attribute it to me.

I was just trying to dump that trash Parsons. Many on this board said they would rather keep a decrepit broken down chump like Parsons rather than getting a scorer with an imperfect game who is in his early 20s and has been relatively injury free I just can't believe people can't understand the toxic environment that Thibs and Butler created. He's no star but he can score for your team. The hate for this dude is hilarious because they suggest so many other bums but dog out Wiggins.

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1 hour ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

Good for you. People always attribute it to me.

I was just trying to dump that trash Parsons. Many on this board said they would rather keep a decrepit broken down chump like Parsons rather than getting a scorer with an imperfect game who is in his early 20s and has been relatively injury free I just can't believe people can't understand the toxic environment that Thibs and Butler created. He's no star but he can score for your team. The hate for this dude is hilarious because they suggest so many other bums but dog out Wiggins.

Exactly!! And I’d Defoe SURE take him now. We have a true Alpha on the team now. And he’s our pg. Ja can control how and when Wiggins gets the ball. He’s a wing SCORER. That’s what we need

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6 hours ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

Good for you. People always attribute it to me.

I was just trying to dump that trash Parsons. Many on this board said they would rather keep a decrepit broken down chump like Parsons rather than getting a scorer with an imperfect game who is in his early 20s and has been relatively injury free I just can't believe people can't understand the toxic environment that Thibs and Butler created. He's no star but he can score for your team. The hate for this dude is hilarious because they suggest so many other bums but dog out Wiggins.

I didn't have any interest in getting Wiggins either.  The length of his contract was putting me off considering that he doesn't provide much in the way of defense.  He is looking better this season, but he is in that same class of players as Carmelo Anthony, to my mind.  You know, the ones who think it's like football and you only play one end of the court?  He would obviously be way, way better than Parsons though.  And for the record I agree about Butler's toxicity, don't know much about Thibs.

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Good for Wiggins lighting up the Warriors gleaguers, but analytics have consistently said that he negatively impacts the game. You dont commit 20-25% of your cap for 4 years to a guy who doesnt have a positive impact on your team. I dont know if Thibs is bad or not but no coach should make a true max talent a negative player. That starts with the player.

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23 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Id rather keep Dillon over acquiring Wiggins.  And Rather see Josh over Wiggins too.    

Now that we have Ja i can give 2 squats about Wiggins.  

Asinine. Wiggins has had a lot of hate over the years, but is better than both of them. Has played amazing this year. 
 

last three games he’s put up 25-30-40

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20 hours ago, ItIsWhatItIs said:

Wiggins is a career 14.6 PER player, for a guy making 30 mil a year for the next 4 years, not good.

 

The max level 2ndary star we should always be looking after is D-Lo 

That can be attributed to Thibs. As a matter of fact if you look at the years before he was here and the year right after he got here his pet was around 17. This year it’s at 20 and climbing. He had a rough start but has since got into a rhythm and is playing well with kat. 
 

Making good decisions compared to his first few years in the league. 
 

any player able to put up 25ppg is better than any player weve had in a Grizz uniform. Period.

Minnesota is winning too. 5-3 right now with KAT and Wiggins doing the work. 
 

miss me with the stats that have no clarification. Wiggins PER will be around 22-24 by the end of the season. His first few games killed that and he’s still at 20 right now. 

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2 hours ago, Dwash said:

Good for Wiggins lighting up the Warriors gleaguers, but analytics have consistently said that he negatively impacts the game. You dont commit 20-25% of your cap for 4 years to a guy who doesnt have a positive impact on your team. I dont know if Thibs is bad or not but no coach should make a true max talent a negative player. That starts with the player.

I’ll shout from the mountain top that it was Thibs that ruined that. Minnesota is 5-3 right now and Wiggins is playing well 

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2 hours ago, Dwash said:

Good for Wiggins lighting up the Warriors gleaguers, but analytics have consistently said that he negatively impacts the game. You dont commit 20-25% of your cap for 4 years to a guy who doesnt have a positive impact on your team. I dont know if Thibs is bad or not but no coach should make a true max talent a negative player. That starts with the player.

I’ll shout from the mountain top that it was Thibs that ruined that. Minnesota is 5-3 right now and Wiggins is playing well 

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8 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

I didn't have any interest in getting Wiggins either.  The length of his contract was putting me off considering that he doesn't provide much in the way of defense.  He is looking better this season, but he is in that same class of players as Carmelo Anthony, to my mind.  You know, the ones who think it's like football and you only play one end of the court?  He would obviously be way, way better than Parsons though.  And for the record I agree about Butler's toxicity, don't know much about Thibs.

4 hours ago, fanboyslim said:

Any discussion about Wiggins that doesn't take his crapload of a contract in consideration is not worth reading.

Wiggin isn't available anymore so it doesn't matter if any of us have any interest him. I do agree that he is a Carmelo Anthony type, the thing is, I don't have a problem with a player like that as we are rebuilding right now. My thoughts were we needed someone who could help take the pressure off of Ja and JJJ. I wasn't looking for a superstar, I wasn't looking for a long term solution. I was looking at who was available that could possibly give us around 20 ppg and take pressure off of Ja and JJJ. I think we have seen the pressure get to JJJ. He was shielded last year, this year, no to so much. I just wanted someone who could score and take the pressure off. There weren't many options available  because most teams would keep players like that but Wiggins was one of them. I felt he could be a nice transition piece for 1-2 years and if he re-established himself, he would easily be tradeable. 

As far as his contract goes, he's barely in the top 30 of contracts this year and next year, he will probably barely be in the top 35-40 contracts. You have to pay players and times have changed. Conley's contract was looked at as ridiculous at the time but as we've seen, you're going to pay in that $30 mil range for good starters. I'm not concerned about his contract because a) we will have all types of cap space next season and I see no where to spend it. Even if you do spend it, you will overpay 2-3 middle of the road bench level players like Kyle Anderson and b)as time goes on, his contract will look less and less worse if he performs. If he performs, a team would most definitely be willing to trade for him. His contract would barely impact us while JJJ and Ja are on rookies contracts, JV has that $15 mil contract. Everyone else is filler. Hiscontraft wouldn't even bring us to the minimum salary for next year. 

 

17 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Good for Wiggins lighting up the Warriors gleaguers, but analytics have consistently said that he negatively impacts the game. You dont commit 20-25% of your cap for 4 years to a guy who doesnt have a positive impact on your team. I dont know if Thibs is bad or not but no coach should make a true max talent a negative player. That starts with the player.

Dude, we are rebuilding. He could be traded in a year or two. Who cares about analytics at this point and i am always wary of people who think all we have to do is look at the analytics of every player and somehow we will build a winner. Just as I am wary of people who want to go after gut feel all of the time. It's not one or the other, it's a combination and there is a time and place for analytics and using analytical  models. We are at the bottom of the league with a new F.O., new head coach and 2 players who we THINK may be our future going forward. There are so many unknown variables and uncertainty that trying to use analytics to bring in players is a moot point. Haven't we tried that in the past few years with Hollinger? How did that work out? Weren't Kyle Anderson, Garrett Temple, and JaM analytics darlings? What happened?

The thing is, in order to use analytics in a successful way, you need some type of stability, a certain level of certainty, and players who fit your system. If we were a stable winner with a certain system, I'm all for using analytics to help enhance our team but if you have uncertainty, no direction, no system, and you are rebuilding and you're just looking for players who have positive impact regardless of the system they played in, you will fail. There are many gray areas in sports.You can't make a mathematical model for life and you can't make a mathematical model for sports. If you could, everyone would win a championship every year and win 100% of their games right? That's unrealistic. It's unrealistic because there are unquantifiable variables that you cannot account for. There are way more unknown variables and qualifiable variables in sports (and life in general) that you can't account for than there are quantifiable variables. Also, do you know how many people I have knowN who have totally changed after leaving a toxic work environment? It's human nature. If you are in an environment that you feel you can't thrive in, you will become frustrated, you become toxic and negative. Wiggins (and KAT as well) was in a bad situation under Thibs and it was made worse when Butler came in. it was a toxic environment. I personally believe both Thibs and Butler were doing all they could to make Wiggins and KAT look bad. Thibs wanted to rebuild the team in his image and they don't fit his image. With Thibs gone, I don't think it's a coincidence that Minny is competitive and Wiggins has gone back to avg over 20 ppg.

Lastly, someone mentioned his PER earlier, the average is 15, Wiggins is at 19 right now. It will change but give the guy credit where credit is due.  I don't understand why people feel that if we traded for WIggins that he would be on the roster for the next 10 years or something. If he performed, we could easily flip him in a year or two. He wouldn't affect our cap very much at all with the contracts that we have going forward. We will have to work to make the NBA salary floor next summer. His contract would be easily tradable but once again, he's no longer on the block, so this conversation really doesn't matter. Someone brought him up so I thought I would just remind people that dude is a scorer and he can score. Carmelo Anthony is a good comparison. There are times and places where you can use players like that. Some people are in your life for a reason and some for a season. I just thought WIggins would take the pressure off of the young'uns in a season of transition. That's it. Not looking for a savior, not looking for him to play out his contract in Memphis, none of that. Just as a scorer in a season of transition.  

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5 minutes ago, Memphis Maverick said:

I’ll shout from the mountain top that it was Thibs that ruined that. Minnesota is 5-3 right now and Wiggins is playing well 

it amazes me that people can't understand that simple concept. Wiggins was showing nice progress in his first 3 years which peaked with Thibs first year coaching Minny. After that year, he began regressing the next couple of seasons. Thibs motivation style is to deride, denigrate, criticize and basically just be negative in an attempt to motivate people. That doesn't work on everyone and it clearly didn't work on Wiggins and KAT yet Thibs continued and tried to turn the TWolves into his old Bulls team. It didn't work. He also didn't do anything to control Butler's negativity. It was clearly a toxic work environment with 2 guys as the stars who were not fits for Thibs style and his system. Of course they would regress. Wiggins needs a more open style and a more supportive style, you know, like Jenkins is looking to do. 

I'm done talking about Wiggins because most people never acknowledge Thibs systyle and system when discussing Wiggins regression. They put it all on Wiggins as if he is a one man team who runs his own system. It was a poor fit simple and plain that hurt Wiggins career. If people can't acknowledge that, there is no reason for me to discuss it with them. All of the stats in the world can't account for bad relationships, toxic environments and poor fit. Put him in a good situation and he is a reliable scorer who will give you 20 ppg easily. You just have to make sure he's a fit for the system you are running. 

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2 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

it amazes me that people can't understand that simple concept. Wiggins was showing nice progress in his first 3 years which peaked with Thibs first year coaching Minny. After that year, he began regressing the next couple of seasons. Thibs motivation style is to deride, denigrate, criticize and basically just be negative in an attempt to motivate people. That doesn't work on everyone and it clearly didn't work on Wiggins and KAT yet Thibs continued and tried to turn the TWolves into his old Bulls team. It didn't work. He also didn't do anything to control Butler's negativity. It was clearly a toxic work environment with 2 guys as the stars who were not fits for Thibs style and his system. Of course they would regress. Wiggins needs a more open style and a more supportive style, you know, like Jenkins is looking to do. 

I'm done talking about Wiggins because most people never acknowledge Thibs systyle and system when discussing Wiggins regression. They put it all on Wiggins as if he is a one man team who runs his own system. It was a poor fit simple and plain that hurt Wiggins career. If people can't acknowledge that, there is no reason for me to discuss it with them. All of the stats in the world can't account for bad relationships, toxic environments and poor fit. Put him in a good situation and he is a reliable scorer who will give you 20 ppg easily. You just have to make sure he's a fit for the system you are running. 

He will give you 25 a game as he is doing right now. His PeR has skyrocketed and it’s not done either. First couple of games kicked it to 20 but it will rise back up. 

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Let's get back on JJJ. He had a nice scoring game last night and is trying to bounce back. His rebounding or lack thereof still concerns me. I think he will get back into scoring mode in a few games. I really feel this is where we needed a veteran scorer on this team that could take the pressure off of him and Ja. I think he's trying to do too much to show that he is the leader of the team. He needs to focus on improving on not fouling and developing 1 or 2 go to moves as opposed to trying to be the leader of the team and telling everyone what to do or trying to put everything on his shoulders. You can easily see that he is frustrated and down in the dumps. 

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4 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

Let's get back on JJJ. He had a nice scoring game last night and is trying to bounce back. His rebounding or lack thereof still concerns me. I think he will get back into scoring mode in a few games. I really feel this is where we needed a veteran scorer on this team that could take the pressure off of him and Ja. I think he's trying to do too much to show that he is the leader of the team. He needs to focus on improving on not fouling and developing 1 or 2 go to moves as opposed to trying to be the leader of the team and telling everyone what to do or trying to put everything on his shoulders. You can easily see that he is frustrated and down in the dumps. 

Jaren is another Wiggins. How about that. Scorer that can’t do much else. 

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8 minutes ago, Memphis Maverick said:

Jaren is another Wiggins. How about that. Scorer that can’t do much else. 

He could be trending that way but he needs to stay on the floor in order to be a more consistent scorer. He doesn't seem interested in doing much else other than scoring when he's on the floor. He needs to be a much better rebounder. How in the world can you only grab 5 rpg when you're not only 6'11" but a very long 6'11"? He needs to be a better shot blocker as well and have much better court awareness. His lack of court awareness and seemingly low BBIQ at this point is why he stays in foul trouble. 

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32 minutes ago, Memphis Maverick said:

I’ll shout from the mountain top that it was Thibs that ruined that. Minnesota is 5-3 right now and Wiggins is playing well 

Wow, with wins over the Hornets, Wizards and Warriors, all consensus bottom 5 teams to start the year. While getting blasted by the 76ers, Bucks and even the Grizzlies.

How much would you like to wager that they will finish below .500 this year again?

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13 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Wow, with wins over the Hornets, Wizards and Warriors, all consensus bottom 5 teams to start the year. While getting blasted by the 76ers, Bucks and even the Grizzlies.

How much would you like to wager that they will finish below .500 this year again?

How much you want to wager they finish 7-10 in the western conference? I’ll take that. 
 

They also beat the Heat and the Nets. Which means they have beat 3 teams with playoff spots as of right now in the East. 
 

Keep digging that hole. 

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14 minutes ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

He could be trending that way but he needs to stay on the floor in order to be a more consistent scorer. He doesn't seem interested in doing much else other than scoring when he's on the floor. He needs to be a much better rebounder. How in the world can you only grab 5 rpg when you're not only 6'11" but a very long 6'11"? He needs to be a better shot blocker as well and have much better court awareness. His lack of court awareness and seemingly low BBIQ at this point is why he stays in foul trouble. 

Seems exactly like Wiggins when he got in the league if you read your statement. Minus the length. We always blasted Gasol for not rebounding but at least he did everything else. 

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5 minutes ago, Memphis Maverick said:

How much you want to wager they finish 7-10 in the western conference? I’ll take that. 
 

They also beat the Heat and the Nets. Which means they have beat 3 teams with playoff spots as of right now in the East. 
 

Keep digging that hole. 

Yeah except they play in the West lol. But anyway, they finished 11th last year and one game off 10th. I thought you said they made a big improvement without Thibs and you were willing to shout it from the mountains? Yet you are only willing to bet that they improved by one spot?

Since Thibs being gone is such a big deal according to you, going from 36 wins to 41 wins should be an easy leap right? Like I said, how much you wanna bet on that?

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10 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Yeah except they play in the West lol. But anyway, they finished 11th last year and one game off 10th. I thought you said they made a big improvement without Thibs and you were willing to shout it from the mountains? Yet you are only willing to bet that they improved by one spot?

Since Thibs being gone is such a big deal according to you, going from 36 wins to 41 wins should be an easy leap right? Like I said, how much you wanna bet on that?

I said Wiggins has made a big improvement without Thibs. Not the team. They haven’t really had improvement in the talent department outside of three players. 
 

Their bench isn’t quite there but their starting 5 is decent. All depends on if KAT and Wiggins as well as Covington stay healthy but if they do I’ll give them 41 wins. Sure. 
 

It will be funny if they do because they don’t have Butler and will win more games. 
 

It also doesn’t matter about whether they are in the West or not. You were downplaying their wins. Against playoff teams. Miss me with that too.

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1 hour ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

Wiggin isn't available anymore so it doesn't matter if any of us have any interest him. I do agree that he is a Carmelo Anthony type, the thing is, I don't have a problem with a player like that as we are rebuilding right now. My thoughts were we needed someone who could help take the pressure off of Ja and JJJ. I wasn't looking for a superstar, I wasn't looking for a long term solution. I was looking at who was available that could possibly give us around 20 ppg and take pressure off of Ja and JJJ. I think we have seen the pressure get to JJJ. He was shielded last year, this year, no to so much. I just wanted someone who could score and take the pressure off. There weren't many options available  because most teams would keep players like that but Wiggins was one of them. I felt he could be a nice transition piece for 1-2 years and if he re-established himself, he would easily be tradeable. 

As far as his contract goes, he's barely in the top 30 of contracts this year and next year, he will probably barely be in the top 35-40 contracts. You have to pay players and times have changed. Conley's contract was looked at as ridiculous at the time but as we've seen, you're going to pay in that $30 mil range for good starters. I'm not concerned about his contract because a) we will have all types of cap space next season and I see no where to spend it. Even if you do spend it, you will overpay 2-3 middle of the road bench level players like Kyle Anderson and b)as time goes on, his contract will look less and less worse if he performs. If he performs, a team would most definitely be willing to trade for him. His contract would barely impact us while JJJ and Ja are on rookies contracts, JV has that $15 mil contract. Everyone else is filler. Hiscontraft wouldn't even bring us to the minimum salary for next year. 

 

Dude, we are rebuilding. He could be traded in a year or two. Who cares about analytics at this point and i am always wary of people who think all we have to do is look at the analytics of every player and somehow we will build a winner. Just as I am wary of people who want to go after gut feel all of the time. It's not one or the other, it's a combination and there is a time and place for analytics and using analytical  models. We are at the bottom of the league with a new F.O., new head coach and 2 players who we THINK may be our future going forward. There are so many unknown variables and uncertainty that trying to use analytics to bring in players is a moot point. Haven't we tried that in the past few years with Hollinger? How did that work out? Weren't Kyle Anderson, Garrett Temple, and JaM analytics darlings? What happened?

The thing is, in order to use analytics in a successful way, you need some type of stability, a certain level of certainty, and players who fit your system. If we were a stable winner with a certain system, I'm all for using analytics to help enhance our team but if you have uncertainty, no direction, no system, and you are rebuilding and you're just looking for players who have positive impact regardless of the system they played in, you will fail. There are many gray areas in sports.You can't make a mathematical model for life and you can't make a mathematical model for sports. If you could, everyone would win a championship every year and win 100% of their games right? That's unrealistic. It's unrealistic because there are unquantifiable variables that you cannot account for. There are way more unknown variables and qualifiable variables in sports (and life in general) that you can't account for than there are quantifiable variables. Also, do you know how many people I have knowN who have totally changed after leaving a toxic work environment? It's human nature. If you are in an environment that you feel you can't thrive in, you will become frustrated, you become toxic and negative. Wiggins (and KAT as well) was in a bad situation under Thibs and it was made worse when Butler came in. it was a toxic environment. I personally believe both Thibs and Butler were doing all they could to make Wiggins and KAT look bad. Thibs wanted to rebuild the team in his image and they don't fit his image. With Thibs gone, I don't think it's a coincidence that Minny is competitive and Wiggins has gone back to avg over 20 ppg.

Lastly, someone mentioned his PER earlier, the average is 15, Wiggins is at 19 right now. It will change but give the guy credit where credit is due.  I don't understand why people feel that if we traded for WIggins that he would be on the roster for the next 10 years or something. If he performed, we could easily flip him in a year or two. He wouldn't affect our cap very much at all with the contracts that we have going forward. We will have to work to make the NBA salary floor next summer. His contract would be easily tradable but once again, he's no longer on the block, so this conversation really doesn't matter. Someone brought him up so I thought I would just remind people that dude is a scorer and he can score. Carmelo Anthony is a good comparison. There are times and places where you can use players like that. Some people are in your life for a reason and some for a season. I just thought WIggins would take the pressure off of the young'uns in a season of transition. That's it. Not looking for a savior, not looking for him to play out his contract in Memphis, none of that. Just as a scorer in a season of transition.  

I dont care about analytics on every evaluation. I do think a guy who you commit 20% of your payroll too should be an overall positive player and you should easily be able to determine that he is that. Rebuilding or whatever.  If he isnt, I wouldnt commit 4 years at that price to that. No matter what he does, scoring or whatever.  I would also say that we need shooting and energy players more than a 3rd rate "scorer" to run every play for. I would leave that money open to try other things, even if its just facilitating trades to get picks. Thats just me.

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3 minutes ago, Memphis Maverick said:

I said Wiggins has made a big improvement without Thibs. Not the team. They haven’t really had improvement in the talent department outside of three players. 
 

Their bench isn’t quite there but their starting 5 is decent. All depends on if KAT and Wiggins as well as Covington stay healthy but if they do I’ll give them 41 wins. Sure. 
 

It will be funny if they do because they don’t have Butler and will win more games. 
 

It also doesn’t matter about whether they are in the West or not. You were downplaying their wins. Against playoff teams. Miss me with that too.

How many games do they have to play to be considered "healthy?"  And if healthy, how much are you betting on those 41 wins? Im saying they wont get to 41 wins if they play all 82 games (they probably wont ofcourse) so you can put the numbers at whatever you like. 

When they made the playoffs two years ago, it was all Jimmy Buckets. During that year, they were a 4 seed before he got hurt in late February. By the time he came back in like 6 weeks they were almost out the playoffs and he had to will them back in by winning the last three. He had more heart than KAT/Wiggins combined and them sad losers couldnt hold water without him. Thats why he was talking so much trash about them.

 

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1 minute ago, Dwash said:

How many games do they have to play to be considered "healthy?"  And if healthy, how much are you betting on those 41 wins? Im saying they wont get to 41 wins if they play all 82 games (they probably wont ofcourse) so you can put the numbers at whatever you like. 

When they made the playoffs two years ago, it was all Jimmy Buckets. During that year, they were a 4 seed before he got hurt in late February. By the time he came back in like 6 weeks they were almost out the playoffs and he had to will them back in by winning the last three. He had more heart than KAT/Wiggins combined and them sad losers couldnt hold water without him. Thats why he was talking so much trash about them.

 

Let him talk trash. At the end of the day Wiggins is doing better without Thibs and Butler on the team and his PER will reflect it at the end of the year. 
 

Since you want to be blunt. I’ll give them 41+ games if they can play 70 or more games together. 
 

Jimmy is Jimmy. Wiggins has never responded to stuff like that. If he keeps up this level of play it won’t matter. He’s avg 7 more ppg in less mpg and a higher fg% than his years with Thibs. 
 

Besides his first game, his numbers have been great. It’s reflected in the Win column against playoff teams and that’s that.

They need one more player on their team that can produce like Jimmy without the attitude and they would be a top 5 seed. Period. 
 

You aren’t saying anything new. And with me providing facts to back up WHY he was having a horrible last two seasons you want to point to the exact reason besides Thibs that he was. 
 

You are simply proving my point. 

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3 minutes ago, Memphis Maverick said:

Let him talk trash. At the end of the day Wiggins is doing better without Thibs and Butler on the team and his PER will reflect it at the end of the year. 
 

Since you want to be blunt. I’ll give them 41+ games if they can play 70 or more games together. 
 

Jimmy is Jimmy. Wiggins has never responded to stuff like that. If he keeps up this level of play it won’t matter. He’s avg 7 more ppg in less mpg and a higher fg% than his years with Thibs. 
 

Besides his first game, his numbers have been great. It’s reflected in the Win column against playoff teams and that’s that.

They need one more player on their team that can produce like Jimmy without the attitude and they would be a top 5 seed. Period. 
 

You aren’t saying anything new. And with me providing facts to back up WHY he was having a horrible last two seasons you want to point to the exact reason besides Thibs that he was. 
 

You are simply proving my point. 

Yeah talk is cheap. How much you willing to put up on these scrubs mane?

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