KyleB

Kyle vs Bruno

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11 hours ago, Rdk4121 said:

Kyle is far from a point guard. The most he's ever averaged is 3.7 assists per 36. Obviously he's never been a full time point guard, but I don't think he's honestly good enough for full time duties anyway, plus we have enough point guards anyway. So he's back to the role he played last year, but we have a more paint dominant center in the starting lineup so I don't think he'll fit in with the starters. He works off the bench possibly, but I'd rather give those minutes to Josh Jackson or Grayson Allen/Dillon Brooks.  

Yeah me too.

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I think the real answer to this question is Josh Jackson, but since he’s not an option, I’ll say Bruno. Kyle doesn’t fit with the play style of Ja, he needs space to operate and Kyle is a spacing nightmare. Bruno is a better than decent shooter with excellent defensive tools. 

I think he has good 3 & D skills now. 

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Id choose Bruno over Kyle in order to help the starting units spacing.     If we had a deadeye knockdown shooter at the 2 then maybe kyle gets the edge otherwise he is a poorer fit there.   

I would much rather starting wing spots go to Dillon and Josh.    But as of today the best option at starting SF is Jae Crowder.     Coach Jenkins has been preaching Pace and Space in every interview so its difficult to imagine he would have two guys in his starting lineup that don't offer that (kyle and Jonas).   So to answer the OP - Bruno.

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On 7/24/2019 at 9:57 AM, KyleB said:

Both combo forwards are good defenders, Bruno has low basketball IQ and is not much of a playmaker but can shoot the 3 ball and space the floor, Kyle has high basketball IQ and is a playmaker but doesn't shoot the three. Which do you think would help Ja more as a starter at the small forward position, Kyle helping take pressure off him as a ball handler and playmaker or Bruno spacing the floor for him to give him better driving lanes and a better kick-out option?

For this exercise, pretend Brooks is strictly a 2 and not an option at small forward, I want this discussion to focus on Kyle and Bruno and am not interested in discussing other options who may be able to play minutes at the three.

Bruno will not "space the floor". He is not good enough from 3 and will be on a losing team. The score often dictates the defensive pressure so Bruno in 3 land won't be helping Ja that much this coming season. Defenders will let Bruno make a few 3's before allowing him the chance to beat them to the hoop.

Kyle is actually a better 3pt shooter than given credit for. He is above average at making his corner 3's. Kyle rarely makes mental mistakes. Him on the court with Ja will make Ja more confident, making Ja a better player. The only real question is if Kyles shoulder injury is healed.

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28 minutes ago, Father Pat said:

Bruno will not "space the floor". He is not good enough from 3 and will be on a losing team. The score often dictates the defensive pressure so Bruno in 3 land won't be helping Ja that much this coming season. Defenders will let Bruno make a few 3's before allowing him the chance to beat them to the hoop.

Kyle is actually a better 3pt shooter than given credit for. He is above average at making his corner 3's. Kyle rarely makes mental mistakes. Him on the court with Ja will make Ja more confident, making Ja a better player. The only real question is if Kyles shoulder injury is healed.

Kyle is a career 32 perfect 3 point shooter, even worse last year, but only averages .6 attempts per game. 

People don't just dare 37% 3 point shooter (which is what bruno shot last year), to take wide open shots like you suggest. I mean they might help off him some, but they aren't just going to completely ignore him either like they more or less can with Kyle.

Bruno has a game that can be improved significantly by playing with a point guard like Ja. The more attention Ja draws, the more wide open 3s or backdoor cuts/ lobs will be available for him. Kyle can't shoot, and probably never will be able to, and clearly isn't a lob target. So he's very functionally limited in any offense where the ball isn't in his hands, which isn't going to be in his hands often. 

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15 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

Kyle is a career 32 perfect 3 point shooter, even worse last year, but only averages .6 attempts per game. 

People don't just dare 37% 3 point shooter (which is what bruno shot last year), to take wide open shots like you suggest. I mean they might help off him some, but they aren't just going to completely ignore him either like they more or less can with Kyle.

Bruno has a game that can be improved significantly by playing with a point guard like Ja. The more attention Ja draws, the more wide open 3s or backdoor cuts/ lobs will be available for him. Kyle can't shoot, and probably never will be able to, and clearly isn't a lob target. So he's very functionally limited in any offense where the ball isn't in his hands, which isn't going to be in his hands often. 

Who will be the priority for developing next season, Ja or Bruno? We want to minimize defensive pressure on Ja and JJJ, the rest are fodder.  Kyle is a career 40% shooter from corner 3's (Bruno is 31% from the corners). Kyle is the savvy guy you want with a rookie that the franchise is depending on for his development. Kyle will help Ja more by being on the court with him than Bruno would. Kyle has proven himself, Bruno has not.

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Bruno showed flashes in summer league and has some untapped potential but there's no way that alone puts him above Anderson in the pecking order. Even if the FO was looking to move him as someone from the old regime they would want to showcase him, not bury him in the bench.

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3 hours ago, Father Pat said:

Who will be the priority for developing next season, Ja or Bruno? We want to minimize defensive pressure on Ja and JJJ, the rest are fodder.  Kyle is a career 40% shooter from corner 3's (Bruno is 31% from the corners). Kyle is the savvy guy you want with a rookie that the franchise is depending on for his development. Kyle will help Ja more by being on the court with him than Bruno would. Kyle has proven himself, Bruno has not.

Are we just going to go 2 on 5 the rest of our days? Kyle hasn't proved anything. He was a fringe starter on our team last year that won 33 games (he wasn't the starter game one with Parsons healthy). You can shoot 3s that aren't in the corner as well. 

It's not like they play the same position anyway, but they're stats are pretty similar. Bruno has more points, blocks per 36, Kyle has more steals and assists, and they're tied on blocks. Net ratings are pretty similar as well (Kyle: 110 on O, 107 on D, Bruno 109 on both. Obviously favors Kyle slightly in both). Win shares is almost the same and they're both above replacement level players. The thing is though, Bruno is just scratching the surface, Kyle's game isn't going to expand anytime soon. Either way, they don't play the same position. 

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Kyle is better for him but Bruno is getting there

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4 hours ago, Father Pat said:

Who will be the priority for developing next season, Ja or Bruno? We want to minimize defensive pressure on Ja and JJJ, the rest are fodder.  Kyle is a career 40% shooter from corner 3's (Bruno is 31% from the corners). Kyle is the savvy guy you want with a rookie that the franchise is depending on for his development. Kyle will help Ja more by being on the court with him than Bruno would. Kyle has proven himself, Bruno has not.

It doesn’t matter if he’s a 40 corner 3 shooter if he never shoots them. .6 attempts per game is worse than his shooting percentage as far as spacing goes. 

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2 minutes ago, King Dork said:

It doesn’t matter if he’s a 40 corner 3 shooter if he never shoots them. .6 attempts per game is worse than his shooting percentage as far as spacing goes. 

Guy said Kyle can't shoot, and that's not true. He also was top 5 for teams field goal percentage last year. Again, Bruno isn't going to have any difference in "spacing" than Kyle would. Besides, so what if Kyle doesn't take more shots? Some of you don't see what is most important going forward; and that is to get Ja and JJJ to reach their potentials, hopefully sooner than later. One of a young players biggest enemies is confidence. Kyle plays as if he's been in the league 12 years, and that will be huge in Ja's development. 

It is paramount that Ja and JJJ are surrounded by players that will help them in their development because everything hinges on just that. Those two are the future pillars of this team. The team will not succeed until they do. Kyle not taking a lot of shots is a good thing. Next season is not about winning games. It is about developing the future dynasty.

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1 hour ago, Rdk4121 said:

Are we just going to go 2 on 5 the rest of our days? Kyle hasn't proved anything. He was a fringe starter on our team last year that won 33 games (he wasn't the starter game one with Parsons healthy). You can shoot 3s that aren't in the corner as well. 

It's not like they play the same position anyway, but they're stats are pretty similar. Bruno has more points, blocks per 36, Kyle has more steals and assists, and they're tied on blocks. Net ratings are pretty similar as well (Kyle: 110 on O, 107 on D, Bruno 109 on both. Obviously favors Kyle slightly in both). Win shares is almost the same and they're both above replacement level players. The thing is though, Bruno is just scratching the surface, Kyle's game isn't going to expand anytime soon. Either way, they don't play the same position. 

Kyle's D rating was the worst of his career last season, as was his 3-pt%.  If his surgery was sucessful I am hoping he shows better.  His career defensive rating is 101, I think, same as Draymond.

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39 minutes ago, Father Pat said:

Guy said Kyle can't shoot, and that's not true. He also was top 5 for teams field goal percentage last year. Again, Bruno isn't going to have any difference in "spacing" than Kyle would. Besides, so what if Kyle doesn't take more shots? Some of you don't see what is most important going forward; and that is to get Ja and JJJ to reach their potentials, hopefully sooner than later. One of a young players biggest enemies is confidence. Kyle plays as if he's been in the league 12 years, and that will be huge in Ja's development. 

It is paramount that Ja and JJJ are surrounded by players that will help them in their development because everything hinges on just that. Those two are the future pillars of this team. The team will not succeed until they do. Kyle not taking a lot of shots is a good thing. Next season is not about winning games. It is about developing the future dynasty.

He only shoots layups essentially, of course he should be in the top 5 on our team in field goal percentage. Kyle can't and won't shoot 3s, which means he doesn't space the floor. Bruno does and makes them at a decent clip which means he pulls a defender towards him at the 3 point line, which means he spaces the floor. I'm not sure what you are even arguing with that. 

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5 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

Kyle's D rating was the worst of his career last season, as was his 3-pt%.  If his surgery was sucessful I am hoping he shows better.  His career defensive rating is 101, I think, same as Draymond.

I'll give you the 3 point shot could certainly improve, but I don't think his shoulder had that much effect on his defense. That one was because he wasn't playing on the spurs anymore. Maybe if he can actually start knocking down 3s then he can be solid piece, but I just don't see that happening. If Josh plays more SF, then I'd rather have him play more minutes. 

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A lot if this is and should be fluid, dependent on what is going on when the team actually starts playing games, in my opinion. 

That said, as of now between only the 2 options presented I'd take Kyle.  Kyle's lack of 3 point shooting is not a perfect fit in the starting lineup but it doesn't mean he can't be useful as a starter.  There is value in starting your best perimeter defender (Kyle)  to guard the opponent's best perimeter offensive player, imo (we'll call it the Tony Allen principle).   I also just happen to think Kyle is just a better overall player right now, and a more natural SF, than Bruno, and I have hopes than Kyle's high BBIQ, combined with hopefully good health and some smart coaching from Jenkins can help mitigate the fit issues some.

Bruno to me is best utilized as a PF not SF.  He's also still green / inconsistent enough that I'd prefer to continue to develop him off the bench, and let him try to take advantage of those comparatively easier match-ups.  I envision the majority of the time JV is not in the game we'll end up seeing 2 of JJJ/Clarke/Bruno at the 4/5 positions, with Plumlee or whoever the backup C is only seeing minutes situationally.  I think that could be a pretty good spot for Bruno to develop this season.

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1 minute ago, Rdk4121 said:

I'll give you the 3 point shot could certainly improve, but I don't think his shoulder had that much effect on his defense. That one was because he wasn't playing on the spurs anymore. Maybe if he can actually start knocking down 3s then he can be solid piece, but I just don't see that happening. If Josh plays more SF, then I'd rather have him play more minutes. 

 You may be right re Spurs, but regardless Kyle is still probably the best defender on the team.  The Grizzlies made a lot of playoff appearances starting a top notch defender at the 2 or 3 who had a reputation for not being able to shoot and for making bonehead offensive plays.  Kyle may not be quite as good a defender as TA, but he shoots a bit better and makes much smarter decisions offensively.  Everyone wants to make a judgment before even one minute has been played with Ja on the floor.  I think that's foolish.  I say let's see who plays better with whom before making any assessments.

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1 hour ago, smit-tay griz said:

 You may be right re Spurs, but regardless Kyle is still probably the best defender on the team.  The Grizzlies made a lot of playoff appearances starting a top notch defender at the 2 or 3 who had a reputation for not being able to shoot and for making bonehead offensive plays.  Kyle may not be quite as good a defender as TA, but he shoots a bit better and makes much smarter decisions offensively.  Everyone wants to make a judgment before even one minute has been played with Ja on the floor.  I think that's foolish.  I say let's see who plays better with whom before making any assessments.

I'd agree that Kyle is probably the best defender, my thing is does his defense outweigh his negative impact on offense. Advanced stats say yes, but just barely. I think we have other good defenders that probably have more potential on offense (Jae, Bruno, Tyus) but we'll see how they stack up as far as net rating. 

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54 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

I'd agree that Kyle is probably the best defender, my thing is does his defense outweigh his negative impact on offense. Advanced stats say yes, but just barely. I think we have other good defenders that probably have more potential on offense (Jae, Bruno, Tyus) but we'll see how they stack up as far as net rating. 

I don't think he has a negative impact on offense.  If you're concluding that because he's not a shooter or big scorer that he has a negative impact I would say that's silly.

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27 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

I don't think he has a negative impact on offense.  If you're concluding that because he's not a shooter or big scorer that he has a negative impact I would say that's silly.

I mean he does, he's certainly a net negative on offense. That's just a fact, there's nothing to really argue there. His defense still outweighs his offense though, hence the above replacement player value he has. 

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You guys are putting way too little respect on my man Bruno. I am not sure if he should be starting (yet), but this is for sure a season where he needs to get a stable 25-ish minutes per game. He has shown great growth last season and we should be excited to see what he can do with more reps. He is only now about to turn 24, by the way, so should he show more strides, he could be a part of the core with Ja, JJJ and hopefully JV (I am biased on that one). His defensive potential is absolutely insane, and he DID show many times last year that it's not just potential, often it's already there. 

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17 hours ago, Father Pat said:

Bruno will not "space the floor". He is not good enough from 3 and will be on a losing team. The score often dictates the defensive pressure so Bruno in 3 land won't be helping Ja that much this coming season. Defenders will let Bruno make a few 3's before allowing him the chance to beat them to the hoop.

Kyle is actually a better 3pt shooter than given credit for. He is above average at making his corner 3's. Kyle rarely makes mental mistakes. Him on the court with Ja will make Ja more confident, making Ja a better player. The only real question is if Kyles shoulder injury is healed.

Oh no. Now I am agreeing with Father Pat. Surely this is a sign of the apocalypse! 

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4 hours ago, Just Passing By said:

You guys are putting way too little respect on my man Bruno. I am not sure if he should be starting (yet), but this is for sure a season where he needs to get a stable 25-ish minutes per game. He has shown great growth last season and we should be excited to see what he can do with more reps. He is only now about to turn 24, by the way, so should he show more strides, he could be a part of the core with Ja, JJJ and hopefully JV (I am biased on that one). His defensive potential is absolutely insane, and he DID show many times last year that it's not just potential, often it's already there. 

Yep, the guy putting up mediocre stats on a flailing tanking team always turns out to be a quality, starter level player.

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14 hours ago, Rdk4121 said:

He only shoots layups essentially, of course he should be in the top 5 on our team in field goal percentage. Kyle can't and won't shoot 3s, which means he doesn't space the floor. Bruno does and makes them at a decent clip which means he pulls a defender towards him at the 3 point line, which means he spaces the floor. I'm not sure what you are even arguing with that. 

Funny thing that for a guy that you claim only shoots layups, Kyle was above league average for the percentage of his shot attempts that were long 2's and made them at a very high rate as well (50 %). I've never heard of a guy that supposedly couldn't shoot being able to do that. You should check statistics before making ridiculous claims. 

Besides, if his shoulder injury is healed and he isn't traded, the F.O. won't be paying him 9 mil per season to sit on the bench. Let that sink in for a minute.

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28 minutes ago, Father Pat said:

Funny thing that for a guy that you claim only shoots layups, Kyle was above league average for the percentage of his shot attempts that were long 2's and made them at a very high rate as well (50 %). I've never heard of a guy that supposedly couldn't shoot being able to do that. You should check statistics before making ridiculous claims. 

Besides, if his shoulder injury is healed and he isn't traded, the F.O. won't be paying him 9 mil per season to sit on the bench. Let that sink in for a minute.

Above average on a shot no one else in the league takes? Whoopty do man. He can't shoot 3s, you've lost it if you think he can or can really shoot at all. He takes 70% of his shots less than 10 feet out (over 46% from less than 3 ft). He takes less of those 16ft-3 point line shots than he takes actual 3s (which was only 0.8 a game as is). So that's less than 0.6 a game, over 43 games that is about 24 total shots from that range. That means he made 12 shots in an entire season from his one above average spot. Those are the actually stats my man, he's efficent in the most inefficient shot in basketball. Awesome. 

They'll be paying some combination of Miles, Howard, Iggy, or Hill upwards of 30 million to sit at home. I doubt they care that much about 9 million. Also it's not like this FO is the one that signed him, I feel like that should have been pretty apparent. I'm not even saying he'll never play (check my 2019 rotation thread), but I don't see him being a huge minutes guy. 

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3 minutes ago, Rdk4121 said:

Above average on a shot no one else in the league takes? Whoopty do man. He can't shoot 3s, you've lost it if you think he can or can really shoot at all. He takes 70% of his shots less than 10 feet out (over 46% from leas than 3). He takes less of those 16ft-3 point line shots than he takes actual 3s (which was only 0.6 a game as is). So that's less than 0.5 a game, over 43 games that is about 20 total shots from that range. That means he made 10 shots in an entire season from his one above average spot. Those are the actually stats my man, he's efficent in the most inefficient shot in basketball. Awesome. 

They'll be paying some combination of Miles, Howard, Iggy, or Hill upwards of 30 million to sit at home. I doubt they care that much about 9 million. Also it's not like this FO is the one that signed him, I feel like that should have been pretty apparent. I'm not even saying he'll never play (check my 2019 rotation thread), but I don't see him being a huge minutes guy. 

61% of Kyle's 3 pt attempts were from the corners were he hit them at 38%. 46% of his 2pt shots were at the rim making 69% of them. That is fundamentally smart basketball. That is how you win basketball games, by taking and making high percentage shots. If you want to deny facts because you are some Bruno fanboy, whatever. Knock yourself out. While you are going full blown KBM next season about Bruno, a healthy Kyle will be starting, no matter what crazy argument you make in an attempt to twist reality.

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