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Kevin B Moses

Will Tony Allen be inducted into the basketball hall of fame?

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3 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

And he still didn't play defense: in the Olympics, in college, and none of those accolades were for his defense. And we both know that he will make it in to the hall of fame. But if you want another example: tmac. Did absolutely nothing but score points, in the hall.

I can tell you are emotionally involved in this issue. I am not. I have explained why I don't believe Tony Allen will make it to the Basketball Hall of Fame:

  1. His offense was atrocius which allowed teams to exploit the other players on the team
  2. He never averaged over 27 MPG due to this deficiency in his game
  3. He never had a starting role on a championship team
  4. He didn't get voted in or named to an All-Star game

If this doesn't suffice for you I am sorry. There is nothing else I can add to this discussion. 

As for Tracy McGrady, I quote his Wikipedia entry:
 

Quote

Tracy Lamar McGrady Jr. (born May 24, 1979) is an American former professional basketball player. He is best known for his career in the National Basketball Association (NBA), where he played as both a shooting guard and small forward. McGrady is a seven-time NBA All-Star, seven-time All-NBA selection, two-time NBA scoring champion, and one-time winner of the NBA Most Improved Player Award.

 

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6 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I can tell you are emotionally involved in this issue. I am not. I have explained why I don't believe Tony Allen will make it to the Basketball Hall of Fame:

  1. His offense was atrocius which allowed teams to exploit the other players on the team
  2. He never averaged over 27 MPG due to this deficiency in his game
  3. He never had a starting role on a championship team
  4. He didn't get voted in or named to an All-Star game

If this doesn't suffice for you I am sorry. There is nothing else I can add to this discussion. 

As for Tracy McGrady, I quote his Wikipedia entry:
 

 

Whatever man, I don't know why you jump into discussions, if you don't want to tackle the question I'm asking.

Tmac did nothing but score points and he was one of the best at it. Tony did nothing but play defense and he was the best at it.

tmac garnered awards for his excellence at offense: allstar games, scoring titles. Tony as a defensive player garnered awards for playing defense. Does not matter that he averaged less than 28 minutes a game because he was first or second team all defense.

But go ahead chip and post one of your memes, or don't answer the question. 

And yes you are right because you never added anything to the discussion to begin with.

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35 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Whatever man, I don't know why you jump into discussions, if you don't want to tackle the question I'm asking.

I answered the question that was asked. Actually I have answered it twice. 

Tmac did nothing but score points and he was one of the best at it. Tony did nothing but play defense and he was the best at it.

tmac garnered awards for his excellence at offense: allstar games, scoring titles. Tony as a defensive player garnered awards for playing defense. Does not matter that he averaged less than 28 minutes a game because he was first or second team all defense.

That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. It is not the opinion of the people who voted for the Hall of Fame. 

But go ahead chip and post one of your memes, or don't answer the question. 

I have answered the original question twice. This will be the 3rd time now:

  1. His offense was atrocius which allowed teams to exploit the other players on the team
  2. He never averaged over 27 MPG due to this deficiency in his game
  3. He never had a starting role on a championship team
  4. He didn't get voted in or named to an All-Star game

These are the reasons why Tony Allen won't be voted into the Hall of Fame in my opinion. There is nothing else to discuss. 

And yes you are right because you never added anything to the discussion to begin with.

I am deeply saddened that you feel this way. I tried to answer your original question as directly and honestly as I could.  

Image result for crying okay gif

 

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I'm a huge TA fan...but I don't see him as being a hall of famer.  I'd love to be wrong on it myself...but I really don't see him making the HOF.

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12 hours ago, Teddy.B said:

I NEED ATTENTION! EVERYONE LOOK AT ME! 

 

12 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

It worked

Image result for okay gif

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56 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

didn't answer your question

Let me make it plain for you: if a player like tmac can get into the hall, not playing both sides of the ball, not getting past the 2nd round of the playoffs, then there is a clear bias of offense over defense, if Tony or Bowen don't get in.

So your "facts" don't explain anything nor do they bring anything to the discussion.

1. (offense was atrocious): tmac didn't play defense, was a ball hog that didn't have results.

2. (he never averaged 27 minutes a game): yet he was first and 2nd team all defense, which means that he was considered the best in the league at it regardless of minutes played.

3. (he never had a starting role on a championship team) neither did tmac, but he did play a pivotal role guarding kobe (so much so that kobe called him the best player to ever guard him)

4. (he didn't get voted to all star teams): no, but he did get voted to 6 straight all-defensive teams.

But none of that means crap. My question was if tmac, who was a pure scorer can get voted to the hall, why is it that a pure defensive player like tony can't, if he was excellent at it. Are you going to answer that any time soon, or are you going to continue barking out theories as to why you think he isn't worthy that don't answer the question.

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7 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Let me make it plain for you: if a player like tmac can get into the hall, not playing both sides of the ball, not getting past the 2nd round of the playoffs, then there is a clear bias of offense over defense, if Tony or Bowen don't get in.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. 

So your "facts" don't explain anything nor do they bring anything to the discussion.

1. (offense was atrocious): tmac didn't play defense, was a ball hog that didn't have results.

2. (he never averaged 27 minutes a game): yet he was first and 2nd team all defense, which means that he was considered the best in the league at it regardless of minutes played.

3. (he never had a starting role on a championship team) neither did tmac, but he did play a pivotal role guarding kobe (so much so that kobe called him the best player to ever guard him)

4. (he didn't get voted to all star teams): no, but he did get voted to 6 straight all-defensive teams.

But none of that means crap. My question was if tmac, who was a pure scorer can get voted to the hall, why is it that a pure defensive player like tony can't, if he was excellent at it. Are you going to answer that any time soon, or are you going to continue barking out theories as to why you think he isn't worthy that don't answer the question.

You've changed your question from Tony deserving to be in the Hall of Fame, and I gave you my opinion on why he doesn't, to Carmelo not deserving his place in the hall (which he isn't in yet but I gave my opinion on why he would be considered) now to T-Mac and I have given my opinion on why he is in. I don't know why you are attacking my opinion. I haven't attacked yours. 

To answer you most recent version of the same question, Tracy McGrady was a tremendous talent when he entered the league, accomplished things that were amazing for his time and if not for injuries could have been considered among the greatest of all time. T-Mac was in the running for League MVP while in Orlando, was the Most Improved Player in the League while in Toronto and had 10 straight seasons averaging more than 30 MPG showing that his coaches felt he could play the majority of the game. 

Tony on the other hand was a blue collar type of player who got by on defensive effort. He was never considered an All-League player but rather was considered among the best at his niche. All-NBA is a more inclusive list than All-Defense so being named tot the Al-- Defense teams doesn't hold as much cache as All-NBA or NBA All-Star does. Apparently I am not alone in that belief. 

But I don't discredit you are a person simply because you have a different opinion. You are entitled to your opinion that Tony Allen deserves to be in the Hall of Fame despite starting only 441 games of the 820 games he played, only averaging 22 MPG over his career which is less than half a game and averaged more turnovers than assists over his career.  

 

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17 minutes ago, pjs said:

No.  But TA is in my Hall Of Fame.

Agreed !

With a statue of him in North Memphis 

in an NFL strong safety stance 

Two hand smacking the court

And the words ‘All-Heart’ 

1st team ALL DEFENSE!!!

mane

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I know you are just trolling, but being a great one on one scorer in basketball has more value than one on one perimeter defense. Always has and always will. You maybe able to argue that a big man that defends all over the court or protects the rim has great value because he impacts everyone.

For starters, the other team may not have a great scorer for TA to "shut down." There is always work for a great scorer to put in every night.

Even with Tony Allen guarding them its not like the great scorers wont make mark.  One he cant guard him every play. He will still get loose on transition, switches ,etc. Two, they will still make some shots, just less effective (maybe). Three, they will still draw attention from other defenders creating opportunities for others.

If the great scorers are bad defenders, most of the time they can just be hidden on someone who isnt involved in the offense.

There are more ways to avoid a great one on one defender and nuetralize his impact. A great defender can be picked off or forced to switch or the offense just avoids him and his side all together. Then he also has to worry about fouls in order to do his job.

One on one scoring has the greatest team impact on the court. Analytics can prove this. Thata why they get all of the accolades.

 

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9 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

you changed the question

I actually have not changed the question, I gave an analogy to support my position that tony deserves consideration. But like dwash said, defense isn't valued in this league the same way offense is, and that's the bottom line.

When I brought up tmac, you (as simple-mined arguer that you are) instead of trying to point out the obvious: the league doesn't value defense, deal with it, want to explain how everything is logical in the nba universe. There is no logic to it. Tmac was a scorer, and that's all he was, if you believe anything else, you are trolling.

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7 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

I actually have not changed the question, I gave an analogy to support my position that tony deserves consideration. But like dwash said, defense isn't valued in this league the same way offense is, and that's the bottom line.

When I brought up tmac, you (as simple-mined arguer that you are) instead of trying to point out the obvious: the league doesn't value defense, deal with it, want to explain how everything is logical in the nba universe. There is no logic to it. Tmac was a scorer, and that's all he was, if you believe anything else, you are trolling.

The league values defense as a part of the total picture. T Mac, Carmelo, James Harden and others have been sensational scorers who were poor defenders but their defense wasn't so weak that the team can't play them more than half a game. Tony's drawbacks prevented him from being on the court a lot.

He didn't start a lot of the time on his teams because of his overall impact. 

If people want to claim it is a league bias against defense that is an opinion but I don't believe coach's hate defense. These coaches who didn't start Tony felt he wasn't good enough to start. That's all. No big conspiracy against defense. It's just that Tony's overall game wasn't as good as other players. 

It may hurt to admit that Tony has limitations in his total game despite his excellent defense on the perimeter but those are the facts. The Grizzlies constantly were looking for someone to play so they didn't have to start Tony as much as they did. That isn't the type of player that makes the Hall of Fame. 

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2 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

The league values defense as a part of the total picture. T Mac, Carmelo, James Harden and others have been sensational scorers who were poor defenders but their defense wasn't so weak that the team can't play them more than half a game. Tony's drawbacks prevented him from being on the court a lot.

He didn't start a lot of the time on his teams because of his overall impact. 

If people want to claim it is a league bias against defense that is an opinion but I don't believe coach's hate defense. These coaches who didn't start Tony felt he wasn't good enough to start. That's all. No big conspiracy against defense. It's just that Tony's overall game wasn't as good as other players. 

It may hurt to admit that Tony has limitations in his total game despite his excellent defense on the perimeter but those are the facts. The Grizzlies constantly were looking for someone to play so they didn't have to start Tony as much as they did. That isn't the type of player that makes the Hall of Fame. 

what???? Alight I'm done. 

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12 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

I actually have not changed the question, I gave an analogy to support my position that tony deserves consideration. But like dwash said, defense isn't valued in this league the same way offense is, and that's the bottom line.

When I brought up tmac, you (as simple-mined arguer that you are) instead of trying to point out the obvious: the league doesn't value defense, deal with it, want to explain how everything is logical in the nba universe. There is no logic to it. Tmac was a scorer, and that's all he was, if you believe anything else, you are trolling.

Im saying one on one defense isnt as impactful as one on one offense in basketball period, at any level.  A great one on one scorer can impact any offensive play that they chose too and the team has total control over how much to involve them. The team with the ball can just avoid the great one on one defender or find ways to take him out the play.

Also, a team can play better defense with more hustle/effort when needed. Hustle/effort does nothing for offense.

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11 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Im saying one on one defense isnt as impactful as one on one offense in basketball period, at any level.  A great one on one scorer can impact any offensive play that they chose too and the team has total control over how much to involve them. The team with the ball can just avoid the great one on one defender or find ways to take him out the play.

Also, a team can play better defense with more hustle/effort when needed. Hustle/effort does nothing for offense.

I'm not sure that is true, it's certainly easier to see, but defense (especially the kind tony played) is about making a player do things that they don't want to do, and I've seen 1 player on defense guard both sides of the court at once. Will a player sometimes score over a good defense, sure, but but 1 defensive player can wreck an entire offense.  

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17 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Zbo has 2 all star appearances, and 1 3rd team all nba.

Tony has 6 first and second team all defensive player selections, an nba championship (where he was known as the kobe-stopper), and you could consider him the best perimeter defender of his era.

Frankly, he has a better resume than Zbo does. So why is THAT a better question?

Like i said, Zbo would more questionable to make it. TA has a better shot for sure.

I think Marc's a lock (can't forget his international career), TA is a maybe (hoping one day he will), Zbo is a no, Conley to be determined but at this rate no.

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24 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Im saying one on one defense isnt as impactful as one on one offense in basketball period, at any level.  A great one on one scorer can impact any offensive play that they chose too and the team has total control over how much to involve them. The team with the ball can just avoid the great one on one defender or find ways to take him out the play.

Also, a team can play better defense with more hustle/effort when needed. Hustle/effort does nothing for offense.

Another thing too, James Harden has been consistently a playoff under-performer due to the fact that good defensive teams are able to game plan for him and stop him. 

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11 hours ago, lions said:

AUg 11 2017 2 pounds of weed and ARREST 

2 L-B's?  Was he going on tour with Willie Nelson and Bob Marley?

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33 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

I'm not sure that is true, it's certainly easier to see, but defense (especially the kind tony played) is about making a player do things that they don't want to do, and I've seen 1 player on defense guard both sides of the court at once. Will a player sometimes score over a good defense, sure, but but 1 defensive player can wreck an entire offense.  

Thats usually a big man. Mutombo, Ben Wallace, etc. A team defender. Tony Allen was known for his one on one defense.

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26 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Another thing too, James Harden has been consistently a playoff under-performer due to the fact that good defensive teams are able to game plan for him and stop him. 

Thats a player performing below expectations.  Nothing to do with this. And again, thats team defense.

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7 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Thats a player performing below expectations.  Nothing to do with this. And again, thats team defense.

But you said that a great offensive one on one player is always more valuable than a defensive one. In this case, harden was probably the best one on one scorer in the league and teams have been able to shut him down, and go ask Klay Thompson about Tony Allen, dude gets night-sweats thinking about playing against tony, lol. 

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7 hours ago, 10SC-2-TOKYO said:

Agreed !

With a statue of him in North Memphis 

in an NFL strong safety stance 

Two hand smacking the court

And the words ‘All-Heart’ 

1st team ALL DEFENSE!!!

mane

I love tony allen ,BUT if tony allen  is one of the BEST Memphis grizzlies of all time then were in TROUBLE  . tony allen was not one of the BEST 100 N.B.A players of  all time 

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2 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

But you said that a great offensive one on one player is always more valuable than a defensive one. In this case, harden was probably the best one on one scorer in the league and teams have been able to shut him down, and go ask Klay Thompson about Tony Allen, dude gets night-sweats thinking about playing against tony, lol. 

Overall he is more valuable. Who cares if a scorer gets "shut down" every now and then (usually not a shut down just below expectations), nobody except you would trade Durant or even Harden for Tony Allen or Kobe or TMac for Bruce Bowen. They dont have the same impact on the team success as a whole period. Without Harden the Rockets are a bottom 5 team.

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22 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Overall he is more valuable. Who cares if a scorer gets "shut down" every now and then (usually not a shut down just below expectations), nobody except you would trade Durant or even Harden for Tony Allen or Kobe or TMac for Bruce Bowen. They dont have the same impact on the team success as a whole period. Without Harden the Rockets are a bottom 5 team.

You actually made a good point, would you trade tmac for tony allen, most likely not. That seems pretty ridiculous. However, last year the clippers traded blake griffin and the year before that they traded chris paul: the two superstars on their team and it did not end up hurting them in the long run. They even traded tobias harris at the deadline and that didn't matter.

So yeah, I agree with you that it seems ridiculous to trade a top 5 offensive player like tmac for a top 2 defensive player (at guard) for tony allen, nobody would ever do that without ulterior motives, yet the fact that the clippers were trying to get cap space and did this might give a glimpse into what that might look like. The fact is the clippers thrived rather than faltered.

  So I don't know.

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Kevin B is really the MVP of this board. It takes talent to produce a 3 page thread during the dog days of summer. This board would be dead without him 

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