GrizzTigerFan

If we convey should we ReTool or ReBuild?

ReTool or ReBuild?  

29 members have voted

  1. 1. ReTool or ReBuild? Which Direction should we take?

    • Keep all major pieces this summer and aim for playoffs
      17
    • Flip all tradeable assets and start the full rebuild
      12


Recommended Posts

I've been watching NBA basketball as well as other sports for over 50 years and it seems to me that when you dump all of your talent the only guarantee is that you will be bad for a very, very long time.  Some of you put way too much faith in tanking as a recipe.  Which great team was built by tanking?  Many of you are enamored with Philadelphia's recent rebuild, but they still have not reached the level that the grit 'n' grind Grizzlies did, and they are one of the better tank stories.  I think the idea of trading all your good vets is rash, stupid, and a guarantee that you will be saying goodbye to Jaren Jackson, Jr. as soon as he can get a ticket out of town.

Now this is not saying that you can't trade players, just that having the idea that you have to trade them is bad business and is just dumb.  That is just a guarantee that you will be robbed in a trade.  Patience is what is required.  If the deal is not going to benefit the team don't make the deal.  If we don't get good value for any of our guys we're way better off trotting out the same lineup and waiting to see what comes up at the trade deadline.

The idea of retooling sounds bad to many fans, I think, because they attach some idea that the foundation players are already in place as in the "core four" of the grit 'n' grind years.  Not so, if done properly.  We shouldn't be married to any of these players.  If the right deal comes along, fine, make the deal.  Just don't make trades to make trades.  I don't believe that trading expiring contracts is a necessity either.  We would have been far better off keeping Tayshaun Prince and let his contract expire so we would have more salary flexibility than trading it for Jeff Green.  We would still have our pick too.

If I were Robert Pera I would institute a moratorium on trading first round picks away unless we're getting a bonafide healthy, alpha star in his prime in return.  In general I would quit trading picks away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, MemphisX said:

No I said what I said.  You guys do this same silliness at the end of every bad season.  Put too much emphasis on player/team performance when games do not matter.  This team is not a middling playoff team.  This team is not Utah or the Clippers.  Hey but if that makes you feel better...do you.

How do they not matter to those playoff teams that were our opponents and are looking for playoff positioning, or for teams like Orlando who are trying to be in the hunt for a spot?  That statement is just as silly as folks getting too excited over these wins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

I've been watching NBA basketball as well as other sports for over 50 years and it seems to me that when you dump all of your talent the only guarantee is that you will be bad for a very, very long time.  Some of you put way too much faith in tanking as a recipe.  Which great team was built by tanking?  Many of you are enamored with Philadelphia's recent rebuild, but they still have not reached the level that the grit 'n' grind Grizzlies did, and they are one of the better tank stories.  I think the idea of trading all your good vets is rash, stupid, and a guarantee that you will be saying goodbye to Jaren Jackson, Jr. as soon as he can get a ticket out of town.

Now this is not saying that you can't trade players, just that having the idea that you have to trade them is bad business and is just dumb.  That is just a guarantee that you will be robbed in a trade.  Patience is what is required.  If the deal is not going to benefit the team don't make the deal.  If we don't get good value for any of our guys we're way better off trotting out the same lineup and waiting to see what comes up at the trade deadline.

The idea of retooling sounds bad to many fans, I think, because they attach some idea that the foundation players are already in place as in the "core four" of the grit 'n' grind years.  Not so, if done properly.  We shouldn't be married to any of these players.  If the right deal comes along, fine, make the deal.  Just don't make trades to make trades.  I don't believe that trading expiring contracts is a necessity either.  We would have been far better off keeping Tayshaun Prince and let his contract expire so we would have more salary flexibility than trading it for Jeff Green.  We would still have our pick too.

If I were Robert Pera I would institute a moratorium on trading first round picks away unless we're getting a bonafide healthy, alpha star in his prime in return.  In general I would quit trading picks away.

+1

One thought that creeps in my mind is say, (hypothetically) we trade someone like JV. We get a high pick that has all kinds of potential-solid pick. After 8 years or so, he reaches full potential and it’s not any better than what JV was giving you 8 years prior. What’s the point? I know all kinds of analogies can be dreamt up, but I felt like putting this one out there.

(queue Wasted Years)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

+1

One thought that creeps in my mind is say, (hypothetically) we trade someone like JV. We get a high pick that has all kinds of potential-solid pick. After 8 years or so, he reaches full potential and it’s not any better than what JV was giving you 8 years prior. What’s the point? I know all kinds of analogies can be dreamt up, but I felt like putting this one out there.

(queue Wasted Years)

 

Exactly.  Too many folks seem to think that those high picks are guaranteed to be better than what we already have.  They want to gamble that we will get a superstar, but really the odds are low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, chipc3 said:

Rebuild the front office before doing anything to the roster, even before drafting. Get a new leader of the team who has a vision and can clearly state that vision to the fans. 

After that is accomplished I am open to discussing what should be done with the roster. Until I know what the front office’s vision is I can’t say what we should do with the roster.

This. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

Yep, rhetorical question. Which current contenders were built through high (top 10) draft picks? Think about it for a minute.

Funny enough the Raps were; Derozan, JV and T-Ross. And then they were all flipped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, cdp said:

Funny enough the Raps were; Derozan, JV and T-Ross. And then they were all flipped.

They weren't really contenders at the stage when all those three guys were playing in Toronto and this comes from a Raptors fan. Yes those assets got them where they're now (high reward high risk scenario as TO can be rebuilding next year), but those trades are usually executed poorly. Winning culture brings important players, tanking isn't part of it. Unless you're Sixers and invent fictional "Trust the process", which worked, but that's just really god PR trick to make the players and fan base buy in. Rebuild/retool via smart trades, build a culture and players will want to come. Exactly what Toronto, Pacers, Bucks, Rockets and GSW has done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do yall not get that the rebuild on the fly has already failed and that this team stinks NOW? Furthermore, what little hope that they have on even being a playoff team heavily hinges on the legs of a 32 year old? We need to get good picks. If you are a lottery team and project to remain one why not get good picks for being in there?

No, they dont have to be a lineup full of top 3 picks but a few wouldnt hurt along with some more first rounders acquired from other teams. Get this debt off the books so you dont have to worry about the on court product for a minute, trade Conley for picks, trade Parsons, Miles to a team needing cap relief for picks, build up AB and JVs stats to try and move them for more picks. Even if they are second rounders or first rounders that havent worked out. Then try to reacquire some vets after you have put some talent base in place.

The other key is dont pick Josh Jackson or Andrew Wiggins or Thomas Robinson or Ben McLemore or Emmanuel Mudiay types with early picks. That is what stalled teams like Minny, Pho, Sac the most. Just picking raw athletes who cant play with valuable picks. Picks the best PLAYER early on, then guys that compliment their style, even if they are upperclassmen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, RandomGuy said:

They weren't really contenders at the stage when all those three guys were playing in Toronto and this comes from a Raptors fan. Yes those assets got them where they're now (high reward but high risk scenario TO can be rebuilding next year), but those trades are usually executed poorly. Winning culture brings important players, tanking isn't part of it. Rebuild/retool via smart trades, build a culture and players will want to come. Exactly what Toronto has done.

Yep.

I was just looking at this season's top teams.  The team with the best record in the East top player was drafted at 15.  Their next two best draft picks (Middleton and Brogdon) were both second round picks.  In the West the top team has a number 7 and 11.  This is similar through all the top teams.  Philly is really the only team with top end picks, and they just traded one of them away and had previously dumped another, and they have a fair number of respected vets.  Trying to tank for a bunch of top end picks so we can have guys in the same age group is not a recipe for success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Do yall not get that the rebuild on the fly has already failed and that this team stinks NOW? Furthermore, what little hope that they have on even being a playoff team heavily hinges on the legs of a 32 year old? We need to get good picks. If you are a lottery team and project to remain one why not get good picks for being in there?

No, they dont have to be a lineup full of top 3 picks but a few wouldnt hurt along with some more first rounders acquired from other teams. Get this debt off the books so you dont have to worry about the on court product for a minute, trade Conley for picks, trade Parsons, Miles to a team needing cap relief for picks, build up AB and JVs stats to try and move them for more picks. Even if they are second rounders or first rounders that havent worked out.

The other key is dont pick Josh Jackson or Andrew Wiggins or Thomas Robinson or Ben McLemore types with early picks. That is what stalled teams like Minny, Pho, Sac the most. Just picking raw athletes who cant play with valuable picks. Picks the best PLAYER early on, then guys that compliment their style, even if they are upperclassmen.

Giannis Antetokounmpo | Pick: 15
Draymond Green | Pick: 35
Kawhi Leonard | Pick: 15
Pascal Siakiam | Pick: 27
Kyle Lowry | Pick: 24
Khris Middleton | Pick: 39
Klay Thompson | Pick: 11

To name a few on current contenders and every other top 10 pick is either "imported" or not a star (except Curry, but he was that only main building block, which they gambled on).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

Yep.

I was just looking at this season's top teams.  The team with the best record in the East top player was drafted at 15.  Their next two best draft picks (Middleton and Brogdon) were both second round picks.  In the West the top team has a number 7 and 11.  This is similar through all the top teams.  Philly is really the only team with top end picks, and they just traded one of them away and had previously dumped another, and they have a fair number of respected vets.  Trying to tank for a bunch of top end picks so we can have guys in the same age group is not a recipe for success.

giphy.gif

Yeah, nailed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RandomGuy said:

Giannis Antetokounmpo | Pick: 15
Draymond Green | Pick: 35
Kawhi Leonard | Pick: 15
Pascal Siakiam | Pick: 27
Kyle Lowry | Pick: 24
Khris Middleton | Pick: 39
Klay Thompson | Pick: 11

To name a few on current contenders and every other top 10 pick is either "imported" or not a star.

If you traded a lottery pick like Derozan for Leonard, this doesnt count as using lottery talent to build? You mention Draymond and Klay, but ignore Steph Curry? Is he not a star? Russell Westbrook? Embiid? Simmons? Tatum? What did the Celts trade for Kyrie?

Nobody thinks you are going to magically draft a lineup with strictly top 5 picks. But along the way, getting high end talent or picks helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RandomGuy said:

Giannis Antetokounmpo | Pick: 15
Draymond Green | Pick: 35
Kawhi Leonard | Pick: 15
Pascal Siakiam | Pick: 27
Kyle Lowry | Pick: 24
Khris Middleton | Pick: 39
Klay Thompson | Pick: 11

To name a few on current contenders and every other top 10 pick is either "imported" or not a star.

Curry was a 7 as was Jamal Murray, but yeah, I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat.  Tanking leads to losing culture.  Before lucking into Curry GSW went 15 seasons with only one playoff appearance (in a 42 win season) and it still took three more years, plus the acquisition of Thompson and Green (a second rounder as you pointed out) before getting back to the playoffs.  17 of 18 seasons in the lottery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I dont really know what you guys point is. This team is not capable of NOT being a lottery team. So its really not a choice of being bad, they are already there.  Once Conley falls off for good, they will be bad permanently. I dont get why that doesn't register in everyone's head.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Dwash said:

If you traded a lottery pick like Derozan for Leonard, this doesnt count as using lottery talent to build? You mention Draymond and Klay, but ignore Steph Curry? Is he not a star? Russell Westbrook? Embiid? Simmons? Tatum? What did the Celts trade for Kyrie?

Nobody thinks you are going to magically draft a lineup with strictly top 5 picks. But along the way, getting high end talent or picks helps.

To use some words that I've read from others on these boards when talking about our own players (most of them with the same mindset as you), Embiid, Simmons, and Tatum haven't won anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not understand why we have to choose beetween this 2 options.

For me there is one goods strategy : Keep this team, get rid of one or 2 players, try to get one smart guy ( unless we have an incredible offer for Mike which i doubt) and see how it goes next year. Jaren will grow faster in a good team than a loosing one.

And  itf it failed at mi-season, we can allways go back to rebuild option by tanking. Yes we loose one year but it's only one year.

And if the team is in good position,  then it will be more easy to get another 1 or 2 good players ( specially after parsons salary is cleared) in the near future. Loosing team do not look exciting for good players.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

To use some words that I've read from others on these boards when talking about our own players (most of them with the same mindset as you), Embiid, Simmons, and Tatum haven't won anything.

Ok since we are going that route (thats not my "mindset" but lets play) lets discuss guys who "won" like Pierce, Dwade, Duncan, Lebron/Kyrie, Steph, Dirk, Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Isiah, Magic(yeah Kobe went #13 no way that would happen today with a prospect like him). How did their teams get them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Dwash said:

And I dont really know what you guys point is. This team is not capable of NOT being a lottery team. So its really not a choice of being bad, they are already there.  Once Conley falls off for good, they will be bad permanently. I dont get why that doesn't register in everyone's head.

 

 

I don't see his production declining ,much over length of his contract. Especially in this new open system. Mike is still cat quick and savvy.  Once his salary comes off books its new ballgame. His expiring might be worth something.

I think Mike is giving us more production/leadership than we could get in a trade at this time

he was just named western conf player of the week- hes not over the hill yet 

I think we could be good next season and back in playoffs if all key guys come back

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dwash said:

And I dont really know what you guys point is. This team is not capable of NOT being a lottery team. So its really not a choice of being bad, they are already there.  Once Conley falls off for good, they will be bad permanently. I dont get why that doesn't register in everyone's head.

 

 

I don't get what your point is.  Boston and Philly, out of all the contenders mentioned have had the most high end picks with only moderate success to date.  Tanking isn't any kind of proven team rebuilding method.  

Trading Conley is okay maybe if you are getting a high pick, but all the teams that would likely be interested are only going to give us a pick in the twenties.  So you trade MC, draft someone who more than likely will only be a role player if he makes it, start losing, alienate the fanbase, have no chance of attracting any quality free agents (as if it isn't nearly impossible already), create a losing culture, alienate Jaren and watch him walk.  Then we can start our own 18 year stretch of no or few playoffs.

Don't rush to make deals unless they are right.  I'm not saying you can't trade Conley, but you better be careful what you wish for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Ok since we are going that route (thats not my "mindset" but lets play) lets discuss guys who "won" like Pierce, Dwade, Duncan, Lebron/Kyrie, Steph, Dirk, Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Isiah, Magic(yeah Kobe went #13 no way that would happen today with a prospect like him). How did their teams get them?

Don't say they were all tanking because it isn't true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

They weren't really contenders at the stage when all those three guys were playing in Toronto and this comes from a Raptors fan. Yes those assets got them where they're now (high reward high risk scenario as TO can be rebuilding next year), but those trades are usually executed poorly. Winning culture brings important players, tanking isn't part of it. Unless you're Sixers and invent fictional "Trust the process", which worked, but that's just really god PR trick to make the players and fan base buy in. Rebuild/retool via smart trades, build a culture and players will want to come. Exactly what Toronto, Pacers, Bucks, Rockets and GSW has done.

The Raps were very much contenders, had to double check but knew it was the year they went 56-26 and were two wins away from the finals only to be stopped by Lebron. That was with DD, JV and T-Ross all contributing.

And another thing, the Raps have signed 1 of their guys as free agents, Lin. That whole team was built by drafting good prospects, developing them into great players, and then trading them for even better ones. And if Toronto can't get players to come to the city, it's going to be that much tougher for Memphis. Heck the only way we've had free agency "success" was to overpay already injured players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, cdp said:

The Raps were very much contenders, had to double check but knew it was the year they went 56-26 and were two wins away from the finals only to be stopped by Lebron. That was with DD, JV and T-Ross all contributing.

And another thing, the Raps have signed 1 of their guys as free agents, Lin. That whole team was built by drafting good prospects, developing them into great players, and then trading them for even better ones. And if Toronto can't get players to come to the city, it's going to be that much tougher for Memphis. Heck the only way we've had free agency "success" was to overpay already injured players.

And they haven't been any further than Memphis went with grit 'n' grind

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

And they haven't been any further than Memphis went with grit 'n' grind

The Grizz might have had more success if Z hadn't went off on Adams and got himself thrown out of the game and suspended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, LuvThem Grizzlies said:

He's not going to be traded, you can forget that.

Then I would suggest you need to prepare youself for the adult life out there because JV will either opt-out and leave Memphis or opt-in and be traded at the deadline 2020. I feel sorry but it is about making rational and reasonable decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now