Ole Dirty Klondike

This Entire Organization Lacks Leadership

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This team lacks leadership started at the top all the way down to the players. I don’t put much into the kerfuffle between Casspi and Temple. Let’s be real, the chances of either being on the team next year is not high at all. I mean, this team would be in the same situation regardless of if Casspi and/or Temple were or were not on the team. It’s bigger than that. This little scuffle is something minor, it’s the black eye with the trade that didn’t happen, it’s Chancun situation, it’s the horrible salary cap situation and the lack of talent the team has. 
Looking at it from the bottom up, there are just leadership gaps throughout this entire organization:


The Players. If one thing has been proven, it’s that Mike and Marc are not leaders. All you have heard from the past couple of season sis what until Mike and Marc are healthy at the same time and boom, we’ll easily win 50-55 games, yadda yadda yadda. Mike and marc can put up stats but the team goes as they go and as a leader, you can’t be all moody and mopey and not engaged as Marc frequently is. People try to use the excuse that Mike leads by example, therefore he doesn’t need to get in teammates face or correct them. I call bs. Neither one of these guys are leaders. They are not even Robins to a non-existent Batman. They are more like Alfred’s. If we had a couple of guys better than Mike and Marc then they would shine but they are guys who are like 3rd best on really good teams. They lack leadership skills and I think Marc’s moodiness affects the team performance way more than others seems to think (I guess he is a sort of a leader in that respect, but that’s not a good thing). Throughout Grit N Grind, Z-Bo and TA provided a certain edge to the team but they also provided leadership, something the team is sorely lacking now even with a mainly healthy Conly and Gasol. 


Coaching. It’s great that they went out and  got ex-players to be coaches and kudos to J.B. Bickerstaff on using his father’s name to get a head coaching position but I don’t think we have a strong coaching staff that demands respect and we probably haven’t had one since the days of Lionel Hollins. Funny thing is Hollins was too strong for they front office yet just what the players needed. Coaching isn’t just x’s and o’s, it’s leadership, management of resources, management of personalities, and managing the talent that you have. We don’t have much NBA level talent on this team.  We can change coaches out every year from Hollins to Joerger to Fizdale to Bickerstaff but until we get better players it won’t matter. Until we get a coaching staff that shows leadership and can get the most out of those better players it won’t matter. I think much like Fizdale, some players like Bickerstaff, but liking and respecting are two different things. If we don’t have a strong coaching staff that can control that locker room, you can tell from the outside looking in.


Front Office/Wallace.  As I mentione din the game thread last night, the Grizz FO gave up a 1st round pick to acquire Jon Leuer. Just let that sit in and then they let him go. This front office has made bonehead move after bonehead move, mostly Wallace but people like Jon Hollinger shouldn’t come out clean either. He’s supposed to be Mr. Analytics and supposed to look at all of those metrics that will help us put the most optimal team out there and we end up with people like MarShon Brooks and James Ennis. For the past couple of seasons at least, this team has been struggling to put actual NBA talent on the floor. The front office has thrown away first round picks, blown first round picks, bobble trades, and their only significant signing was overspending on a “bro” with a broken down knee who his previous team didn’t even want to sign and the guy had a bromance with the previous team owner. (I will say, at the time, I was fine with taking that risk but now it’s time to fix that mistake). This front office has been in disarray for years going back to Wallace being banned from FEF to the foolish antics backbiting  of Jason Levian to Joe Abadi and everybody else involved in that clownshow. I remember reading an article saying that a good portion of the Grizz FO people don’t even live in Memphis. A lot of them work remotely in other cities. I mean seriously? I get it. I have worked remotely in Corporate America but that’s a different dynamic. For the past couple of years, it has seemed as if no one knows who’s even in charge. I read an article recently where Pera tried to clear it up by saying Wallace is in charge but then said that the others have a direct line of communication with him and he’s willing to listen to what they say, to me that means Wallace is not in charge. Lack of leadership, lack of a leader which brings me to Pera


Owner. Look, I don’t know much about Pera and I’m not going to blast him, but what I do know is that he’s not in Memphis much. What I do know is he doesn’t attend many games. Is his presence even felt on the team? Once again, I have worked remotely in corporate America and you have to go the extra mile if your team is spread out over the country/world. At least from the outside looking in, he’s not even going the extra inch. It seems as if he just stands back and let everything work itself out. That’s clearly not working, either he needs to hire a stronger FO or somehow become more involved himself. The inmates are running the asylum.


I think there is a dearth of leadership throughout this entire organization from the owner to the F.O. to the coaching staff to Mike and Marc. There is no leadership and that’s why everyone is flailing and why the Grizz as an organization has taken black eye after black eye this season. 

It may not be time to blow it up and start over but it’s really close. I really hope they win enough to get off of that pick that they owe Boston so that they can move forward. After that, blow it up and rebuild a new identify from the players on the team to the front office, just start over. 
 

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The grizzlies have made bad move after bad move. You can't make so many bad moves in a row and expect to get out of it. Like I said before I think Marc is the head of the snake right now, but moving on from him probably isn't going to matter much seeing how the grizzlies have no direction.

Trading rudy, firing Hollins were so egregious, and signing parsons. The grizzlies had 2 year window to win the championship and one of them was taken away by stupidity.

 

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38 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

The grizzlies have made bad move after bad move. You can't make so many bad moves in a row and expect to get out of it. Like I said before I think Marc is the head of the snake right now, but moving on from him probably isn't going to matter much seeing how the grizzlies have no direction.

Trading rudy, firing Hollins were so egregious, and signing parsons. The grizzlies had 2 year window to win the championship and one of them was taken away by stupidity.

 

We could have probably been moved on to the NBA finals had we not traded Rudy that season. I think they have to move Marc though, in hopes of getting a solid pick in the draft.

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I guess this is a call to clean house of almost everybody. I agree with the frustration but its not realistic.

Our scoring leaders are not scoring well. If they were, as earlier in the season, we would be winning enough games to make the playoffs. This is the goal. Its still reachable. I-told-you-so is due on some of it but not about this season, not yet.

The Levien blunders were the worst. It hurts your off-with-their-heads argument to put that on the Wallace crew. Its kinda like blaming Bickerstaff for Hollins coaching decisions.

I hope this is the bottom. It could be, although its looking dark. Conley may be too beat up. Across the league large screeners are allowed to knock the stuff out of guards. Supposedly injury was the main reason to stretch the schedules, but allowing the screening violations means that they were mainly concerned about coaches resting players. So, yes, I have found a way to blame the league for the Grizzlies problems.

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if the grizzlies don,t come out on a high note Friday after this locker room  issue then this team s-----

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1 hour ago, tangogriz said:

I guess this is a call to clean house of almost everybody. I agree with the frustration but its not realistic.

Our scoring leaders are not scoring well. If they were, as earlier in the season, we would be winning enough games to make the playoffs. This is the goal. Its still reachable. I-told-you-so is due on some of it but not about this season, not yet.

The Levien blunders were the worst. It hurts your off-with-their-heads argument to put that on the Wallace crew. Its kinda like blaming Bickerstaff for Hollins coaching decisions.

I hope this is the bottom. It could be, although its looking dark. Conley may be too beat up. Across the league large screeners are allowed to knock the stuff out of guards. Supposedly injury was the main reason to stretch the schedules, but allowing the screening violations means that they were mainly concerned about coaches resting players. So, yes, I have found a way to blame the league for the Grizzlies problems.

It would have to be top to bottom and no that's not easy but this team will never change as long as Pera enables Wallace. The FO will never get a coach with a backbone because they are afraid of coaches like that and they continue to make bad moves which limits the team's ability to obtain talent. Clearing out the FO would be a good start. Changing coaches with this FO won't do much cause it will be groundhog day over and over, especially if Mike and Marc are your two best players. 

2 minutes ago, Grizzled Vet said:

Sometimes I think this organization looks for a bad move to make, just so the fans forget the previous one

Same here

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1 hour ago, Ole Dirty Klondike said:

It would have to be top to bottom and no that's not easy but this team will never change as long as Pera enables Wallace. The FO will never get a coach with a backbone because they are afraid of coaches like that and they continue to make bad moves which limits the team's ability to obtain talent. Clearing out the FO would be a good start. Changing coaches with this FO won't do much cause it will be groundhog day over and over, especially if Mike and Marc are your two best players. 

Same here

You wake up every day and you have something to work with. Right now this team belongs to Marc and Mike. Thats the way of the NBA. A choice to display backbone can be a winner and/or a loser, ie. Hollins and Fizdale. (Although I guess Hollins case is first a winner and later a loser.) There have been bad decisions and bad breaks. Thats also the NBA way. It happens on most teams. Unfortunately, we don't actually know who made many of the bad decisions. Remember how high most were on the Levien leadership. House clearing can go wrong.

If things are so bad, we would not have done so well early in the season. We know Wallace is in charge now. His FO and the owner made the decision against a complete rebuild. I know you opposed that. Once that decision was made I think they have done a good job with what they have.

I'm a late-comer lurker who does not have as much invested in the team as you. Maybe you were right about the earlier rebuild and the changes needed now. But it still makes me think of Levien.

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El Guapo posted a good interview of Pera in the thread "Roster moves", top of page 458. Some of the things Pera says make a lot of sense. I really like that he is behind and/or all for getting high BBIQ players. He explains why he had been hands off; because of the minority owner buyout, it was part of his strategy to keep the price down (believe it or not, your choice, but it did make sense to me). Anyway, if someone can paste it here it might be a big help. At the very least, it is a good read and gives you some idea where he is coming from and where he wants the team to go.

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Basically small market teams like MEM can’t afford to have losing seasons. Ticket sales will go down and the team will lose money etc etc... Well they are losing money already now but that explains why they still hang onto Mike and Marc, but would building an exciting young team help? Look at SAC, Fox, Hield & co are playing some exciting brand of basketball. They are young, athletic and entertaining. With JJJ as a major building block, we should assemble assets to build around him. Kyle Anderson was a nice pickup, but we need more. Almost got Kelly Oubre who would be a good addition. We need good balance between the present and the future. The guy in charge needs to have great vision and direction, and Chris Wallace is not that guy.

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4 hours ago, Father Pat said:

El Guapo posted a good interview of Pera in the thread "Roster moves", top of page 458. Some of the things Pera says make a lot of sense. I really like that he is behind and/or all for getting high BBIQ players. He explains why he had been hands off; because of the minority owner buyout, it was part of his strategy to keep the price down (believe it or not, your choice, but it did make sense to me). Anyway, if someone can paste it here it might be a big help. At the very least, it is a good read and gives you some idea where he is coming from and where he wants the team to go.

The link:

Quote

 

El Guapo Posted December 30, 2018

Somewhat related to you guys convo if you’re interested and haven’t  read it.

https://www.dailymemphian.com/article/1930/Exclusive-QA-Robert-Pera-says-he-remains-committed-to-Memphis-and-is-more-hands-on-than-ever

 

Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to check out that thread. Interesting info about the buyout clause and that Kaplan "wanted to buy the team or create a distressed situation."

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5 hours ago, Father Pat said:

El Guapo posted a good interview of Pera in the thread "Roster moves", top of page 458. Some of the things Pera says make a lot of sense. I really like that he is behind and/or all for getting high BBIQ players. He explains why he had been hands off; because of the minority owner buyout, it was part of his strategy to keep the price down (believe it or not, your choice, but it did make sense to me). Anyway, if someone can paste it here it might be a big help. At the very least, it is a good read and gives you some idea where he is coming from and where he wants the team to go.

Maybe it's just the cynic in me but he was quite evasive on the relocation subject, trying to fob it off, saying he defers to his legal advice, but claims he doesn't know what that is. That's BS, he knows the deal

And Abadi has a bigger role than he wants to admit, which is bad, these lawyers are liars and leaches

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7 hours ago, Father Pat said:

El Guapo posted a good interview of Pera in the thread "Roster moves", top of page 458. Some of the things Pera says make a lot of sense. I really like that he is behind and/or all for getting high BBIQ players. He explains why he had been hands off; because of the minority owner buyout, it was part of his strategy to keep the price down (believe it or not, your choice, but it did make sense to me). Anyway, if someone can paste it here it might be a big help. At the very least, it is a good read and gives you some idea where he is coming from and where he wants the team to go.

He also clarified that Joe Abadi was there mainly to manage the ownership situation and once that was resolved, he's no longer involved with the team. This removes some of the doubts regarding who has been really pulling the strings in the FO.

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All you have to do is look at the drafting history of the Grizzlies between 2008 and 2016. 9 years worth of drafts and not a single player from those 9 drafts is on the Grizzlies today as part of the rotation. Let that sink in. Essentially, the Grizzlies were the worst drafting team in the NBA during those years, which normally would get a GM fired.

However, because of Mike, Mark, Zach & Tony, the team stayed competitive during those years, which kept the front office from being cleaned out for their inept drafting.

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As far as on the court leadership goes.   Rob Fisher mentioned on radio this morning.   (paraphrasing) that he believes that best move would be for Mike and Marc to cede leadership over to another player.   He was implying that there is other players on roster that are better vocal leaders.  But that person(s) just need Mike and/or Marc to endorse them.   Reading in between the lines i thought he was referring to Kyle or Temple.  

It has become obvious to everyone that M and M aren't the right type of leaders and aren't handling it well.   They aren't the rally the troops types and Gasol is too critical and moody to be a leader.   It would be ideal if the person Rob was implying was Kyle.   His play the last few weeks shows me that he understands what the team needs and is willing to take that on himself.   If he can be the on court leader (sorta like Draymond) that will be something really good to build on.  

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10 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

As far as on the court leadership goes.   Rob Fisher mentioned on radio this morning.   (paraphrasing) that he believes that best move would be for Mike and Marc to cede leadership over to another player.   He was implying that there is other players on roster that are better vocal leaders.  But that person(s) just need Mike and/or Marc to endorse them.   Reading in between the lines i thought he was referring to Kyle or Temple.  

It has become obvious to everyone that M and M aren't the right type of leaders and aren't handling it well.   They aren't the rally the troops types and Gasol is too critical and moody to be a leader.   It would be ideal if the person Rob was implying was Kyle.   His play the last few weeks shows me that he understands what the team needs and is willing to take that on himself.   If he can be the on court leader (sorta like Draymond) that will be something really good to build on.  

This is where having a strong head coach comes into play. Teams can and have been successful without strong vocal floor leaders. Mike, Marc and Jam are the only Grizzlies left from the last time they were in the playoffs, and that wasn't so long ago. Having a new guy become the vocal floor leader would be a disaster. No way Mike and Marc's ego's would be able to handle it. Hollins still has a hold on those two. To be honest, I believe that is how it should be anyway. Head coach - floor leader - rest of team. Pera needs to quietly start a new head coach search if he plans on keeping Mike and Marc.

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20 minutes ago, Father Pat said:

This is where having a strong head coach comes into play. Teams can and have been successful without strong vocal floor leaders. Mike, Marc and Jam are the only Grizzlies left from the last time they were in the playoffs, and that wasn't so long ago. Having a new guy become the vocal floor leader would be a disaster. No way Mike and Marc's ego's would be able to handle it. Hollins still has a hold on those two. To be honest, I believe that is how it should be anyway. Head coach - floor leader - rest of team. Pera needs to quietly start a new head coach search if he plans on keeping Mike and Marc.

I see what you mean but at Mike and Marc age and experience - they should be beyond needing a dominant Head Coach.  Its their team now and part of taking ownership is leading.  

   I can see that being a necessity for the Jaren+Kyle+Dillon era and hopefully JB is shown the door when Mike and Marc go into the sunset.  

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4 hours ago, HPGrizz said:

All you have to do is look at the drafting history of the Grizzlies between 2008 and 2016. 9 years worth of drafts and not a single player from those 9 drafts is on the Grizzlies today as part of the rotation. Let that sink in. Essentially, the Grizzlies were the worst drafting team in the NBA during those years, which normally would get a GM fired.

However, because of Mike, Mark, Zach & Tony, the team stayed competitive during those years, which kept the front office from being cleaned out for their inept drafting.

This.  100% this.

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1 hour ago, Father Pat said:

This is where having a strong head coach comes into play. Teams can and have been successful without strong vocal floor leaders. Mike, Marc and Jam are the only Grizzlies left from the last time they were in the playoffs, and that wasn't so long ago. Having a new guy become the vocal floor leader would be a disaster. No way Mike and Marc's ego's would be able to handle it. Hollins still has a hold on those two. To be honest, I believe that is how it should be anyway. Head coach - floor leader - rest of team. Pera needs to quietly start a new head coach search if he plans on keeping Mike and Marc.

Exactly right.

The oncourt leadership has to start from the coach.

Mike has to stop being so meek & mild, and start commanding the team, and giving up techs when he don't get calls.

But it starts with the coach.

Problem is this management is like Trump, they won't tolerate criticism, even if it is constructive and honest and candid - ask Hollins and Joerger

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So the Grizzlies need a strong head coach? Maybe someone like Lionel Hollins who refused to change the way he played or Dave Joerger who wouldn’t play young players?

You guys make me laugh sometimes. When we had strong head coaches you hated them because they wouldn’t experiment with lineups. When we get “players coach’s” you hate them because the players don’t have accountability. 

There’s always something better looking on the other side. Personally I don’t think coaches really matter as much as talent. Get players who aren’t career journeymen, 2nd round picks or underaged projects and you can win more games. It’s the GM not the coach that dictates the team’s abilities.

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17 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

So the Grizzlies need a strong head coach? Maybe someone like Lionel Hollins who refused to change the way he played or Dave Joerger who wouldn’t play young players?

You guys make me laugh sometimes. When we had strong head coaches you hated them because they wouldn’t experiment with lineups. When we get “players coach’s” you hate them because the players don’t have accountability. 

There’s always something better looking on the other side. Personally I don’t think coaches really matter as much as talent. Get players who aren’t career journeymen, 2nd round picks or underaged projects and you can win more games. It’s the GM not the coach that dictates the team’s abilities.

Well, my post said that we lack leadership at every level, not mention we don't have enough talent, that's not saying changing the coach will cure everything. As far as the coaches go, I was totally fine with Hollins and Hollins' style, mainly because it was needed. We had some knuckleheads. His style got results and he got screwed over by the FO. A Memphis screwjob if you will. I never liked joerger, mainly by the way he got the job. He was slimy and he laid with dogs and was bitten by fleas, so be it. All he did was try to continue what Hollins did. as far as Fizdale, i was no fan. I tried to give him a chance but by the middle of his first year, I didn't care for his style and thought he had no idea what he was doing as a coach. WIth that being said, they still screwed him by firing him when they did. 

I have mentioned time and time again that firing the coach won't matter. there are two issue sthat are bigger than the coach- a) we don't have enough talent and b) we lack leadership from the players to the owner. Firing the coach won't solve either of those issues. 

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3 hours ago, chipc3 said:

So the Grizzlies need a strong head coach? Maybe someone like Lionel Hollins who refused to change the way he played or Dave Joerger who wouldn’t play young players?

You guys make me laugh sometimes. When we had strong head coaches you hated them because they wouldn’t experiment with lineups. When we get “players coach’s” you hate them because the players don’t have accountability. 

There’s always something better looking on the other side. Personally I don’t think coaches really matter as much as talent. Get players who aren’t career journeymen, 2nd round picks or underaged projects and you can win more games. It’s the GM not the coach that dictates the team’s abilities.

100 percent right chip

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Lionel Hollins to me was the best coach the Memphis grizzlies had . the players played HARD for coach Hollins and I feel the player most of all RESPECTED coach Hollins 

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56 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

So the Grizzlies need a strong head coach? Maybe someone like Lionel Hollins who refused to change the way he played or Dave Joerger who wouldn’t play young players?

You guys make me laugh sometimes. When we had strong head coaches you hated them because they wouldn’t experiment with lineups. When we get “players coach’s” you hate them because the players don’t have accountability. 

There’s always something better looking on the other side. Personally I don’t think coaches really matter as much as talent. Get players who aren’t career journeymen, 2nd round picks or underaged projects and you can win more games. It’s the GM not the coach that dictates the team’s abilities.

Being a strong coach does not mean you have to roll out the same lineup all the time. That is just ridiculous. If anything, it is just the opposite. A strong coach recognizes when a player isn't doing what is expected and changes things for the betterment of the team. A strong coach recognizes that rookies need playing time to get better and finds ways to get them into the lineup today so they will be better tomorrow. You seem to confuse stubbornness with being strong. Two totally different things. You make me laugh sometimes. 

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1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

So the Grizzlies need a strong head coach? Maybe someone like Lionel Hollins who refused to change the way he played or Dave Joerger who wouldn’t play young players?

You guys make me laugh sometimes. When we had strong head coaches you hated them because they wouldn’t experiment with lineups. When we get “players coach’s” you hate them because the players don’t have accountability. 

There’s always something better looking on the other side. Personally I don’t think coaches really matter as much as talent. Get players who aren’t career journeymen, 2nd round picks or underaged projects and you can win more games. It’s the GM not the coach that dictates the team’s abilities.

I never wanted Hollins let go, that was a big mistake

Joerger's issue was he wouldn't change his mindset when it came to some rotations and player development. In hindsight, the players to develop probably weren't up to it.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what we think, or you trying to catch us in a "gotcha" moment, the FO fired them because they dared to criticize Wallace and Pera, not because they got a bright idea reading these posts.

7 minutes ago, Father Pat said:

Being a strong coach does not mean you have to roll out the same lineup all the time. That is just ridiculous. If anything, it is just the opposite. A strong coach recognizes when a player isn't doing what is expected and changes things for the betterment of the team. A strong coach recognizes that rookies need playing time to get better and finds ways to get them into the lineup today so they will be better tomorrow. You seem to confuse stubbornness with being strong. Two totally different things. You make me laugh sometimes. 

You're trying to preach to someone who professes that coaches don't matter, so you're response won't be comprehensible to him

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