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Kevin B Moses

Marc absoultely does not know his role on this team. The grizzlies are losing because we have 1 star and a bunch of role players and no coach

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Call me a flopper, I'm ready.

However, 

I think it is time that the grizzlies should at least consider it. The problem is that Marc only wants to play half-court offense and the grizzlies don't have the personal to do that, If Marc is unwilling to become ZBO-like and he clearly does not want to. You can't build an offense around Marc passing to low volume cutters. The clippers got rid of Blake and are just fine, the pacers got rid of Paul George and they got better. 

Marc is just way too much of an influence on how the grizzlies play and we are never going to have a good offense with him on the team. The grizzlies are at a crossroads right now and maybe Fizdale was at least somewhat right for benching Marc.

I know marc doesn't want to leave Memphis and pera seems to think he has an open ticket to stay on the team. I think pera has looked at what San Antonio did as a measuring stick, but the difference between the spurs and the grizzlies is that it was Pop's way or the highway and Tim tried to fit in. Marc basically runs this team right now and until we cut the head off the snake it isn't going to get better.

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After being vehemently against it for years 

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fiz was not somewhat right at all.

that is a common narrative around here and elsewhere. that fiz is some great coach in the making.

the guy is a slick talker, nothing more.

he did nothing to form an identity/rotation with his teams.

I will give a nod of the hat to him for opening the offense and having marc step outside for points. that is the best gift he gave the organization- everything else was carpetbagger salesman crap.

 

slim.

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if our beloved organization has not had the following detailed chat with gasol, then all things holy save us:

marc, you know you have the ability to opt out this summer and we would greatly like you to do so. you have grown up here and we would love for you to retire as a grizzly. as you know, we made a great error in our signing of chancun. that has strapped us dearly and we must make tough decisions moving forward. our proposal to you is to sign a 4 year deal (somewhere around $14m per), take your insurance of being locked up for the remainder of your career, which will allow us to sign/trade for a scorer at the 3 that we desperately need- or the 2 for that matter. if you would rather not go this route, we will trade you (with as much input from you as possible) before the trade deadline this season.

 

slim.

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1 hour ago, Allen said:

After being vehemently against it for years 

Years? Just last week he said he couldnt understand why anyone would trade him after I said do it.

But his value is low in todays league. In a modern NBA offense that isnt built around him he is a 10-12 point scorer now. Wont have a huge market cause he doesnt put any teams over the top.

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Gasol's usage has drop from mid/high 20's early in the season to 22.3% less than the 22.9 of Jaren and the 24.5% of Marshon Brooks.

Also he has the best defensive advance stats on the team. 

Conley has slipped defensively, but is pressing during 4th quarters. In the last game he shot the team out of the game.

And he had by far the highest usage on the team. And everyone just stands around while Conley pounds the rock.

All our bench players have been bad defensively and offensively, during the losing streak.

I am for trading Gasol next year, unless he takes a team discount. Next year so we can have a full year tank job while giving out our pick this year to Boston.

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Fizdale wasn't the answer. Gasol isn't the problem. At least not entirely. The problem is the Grizzlies have no vision coming from the front office.

Is Wallace even running things any more? Has he ever really run things for that matter? Is Robert Pera aware of what is happening here? Is his attorney in charge? Is someone else running the show and Wallace is just the figure head of the franchise? 

Before the team considers trading Gasol there needs to be an identity or vision of what they want the team to become. The Grizzlies shouldn't just jettison players, any players, to get rid of them. 

The front office's moves have emasculated the coaches on the team. No one thinks they have any real power. Since Wallace arrived the Grizzlies have played 923 regular season games and 63 playoff games. That's a total of 986 games. 

They have had 6 people listed as Head Coach or interim head coach during that span. That is an average of a coach every a new coach every 164.33 games or basically once every other season. Let that sink in for a second. A new coach every other year for 12 years. 

Is it any wonder the inmates are running the asylum? Granted Wallace hasn't been in charge for the entire time - and may not be in charge now - but it has been his name on the door. Until the Front Office gets the cajones to support the coach over the players nothing will be run properly. 

And this is coming from someone who doesn't believe coaches make much of a difference to a team's record. It's the talent on the court that matters and that is a front office issue as well. The reality is the Grizzlies have sub-par NBA talent top to bottom on the roster and no coach will be able to consistently out-coach another NBA team who has a coach with more talent on his roster. When the front office fires the coach to cover the front office's failure to deliver the better talent you get the mess the Grizzlies are in right now. 

I don't know if Gasol can be salvaged but losing his talent would hurt more than keeping him around. Losing Conley would hurt more than keeping him around. Until the Front Office stops wasting money on injured players and filling out the roster with terminal bench players nothing will change. 

Clean out the Front Office dead weight and maybe the franchise will be able to turn things around. It is their fault not the coaches or the players.

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We'd be a lottery team.

So, just stick with what we got, continue development of the young guns, keep Marc n Mike we need them to be anywhere near out of the bottom 8 teams, keep them healthy tho by managing their minutes/games. Make a move with our expirings at the deadline to stay above water if need be. At this point if we make the playoffs it's a bonus.

Then, talk about trades in the offseason, after we finally give up that **** pick to Boston. That's what stopping us from going full rebuild.

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40 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Years? Just last week he said he couldnt understand why anyone would trade him after I said do it.

But his value is low in todays league. In a modern NBA offense that isnt built around him he is a 10-12 point scorer now. Wont have a huge market cause he doesnt put any teams over the top.

If I said that last week, how is that different from what Allen said. As allen said, I have been opposed to trading marc at least all the way up to last week.

I guess you could say that my protest last week doesn't make much sense to what I'm saying now. However, I am certainly conflicted by it. On one hand, as I said in the original post, I can understand why pera has basically given Gasol an open invitation to be on the team, that it is up to him. I understand it because that's what good teams usually do, they keep their star players. That's what Pop did. 

So like I said, last week was that side of me speaking.

But there is another side that says that Marc IS the problem and the reason the grizzlies have plateaued and that getting rid of him would be the first step in getting back on a winning track.

I have also said for at least the last few months that I think Marc cannot be a #2 guy and that Mike can't do it alone. Mike is too nice of a guy to call out Marc and he does his best to be a calming influence, but Marc runs this team and that, like I said, might be the problem. 

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29 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

If I said that last week, how is that different from what Allen said. As allen said, I have been opposed to trading marc at least all the way up to last week.

I guess you could say that my protest last week doesn't make much sense to what I'm saying now. However, I am certainly conflicted by it. On one hand, as I said in the original post, I can understand why pera has basically given Gasol an open invitation to be on the team, that it is up to him. I understand it because that's what good teams usually do, they keep their star players. That's what Pop did. 

So like I said, last week was that side of me speaking.

But there is another side that says that Marc IS the problem and the reason the grizzlies have plateaued and that getting rid of him would be the first step in getting back on a winning track.

I have also said for at least the last few months that I think Marc cannot be a #2 guy and that Mike can't do it alone. Mike is too nice of a guy to call out Marc and he does his best to be a calming influence, but Marc runs this team and that, like I said, might be the problem. 

It matters to how stable your opinion appears. If I debated for the past few years that Zbo was the best scorer in Grizzly history and today I admitted that Conley is the best scorer in Grizzly history, one would conclude that I have probably slowly come to that conclusion over time, like you would for any reasonable person.

However, if just last week I was still vehemently debating that Zbo was the best scorer in Grizzly history without budging for years and wouldnt even consider Conley as the best scorer and now I just flipped today to Conley, one would say my opinion is untrustworthy or that I wasnt being honest all of those years and likely to flip again at the drop of a hat.

But anyway, there is nothing here about Gasol that you can repeat that most of us didnt figure out 2/3 years ago. I actually think you always knew it too, but was too committed to your contrarian role to admit.

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2 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Call me a flopper, I'm ready.

However, 

I think it is time that the grizzlies should at least consider it. The problem is that Marc only wants to play half-court offense and the grizzlies don't have the personal to do that, If Marc is unwilling to become ZBO-like and he clearly does not want to. You can't build an offense around Marc passing to low volume cutters. The clippers got rid of Blake and are just fine, the pacers got rid of Paul George and they got better. 

Marc is just way too much of an influence on how the grizzlies play and we are never going to have a good offense with him on the team. The grizzlies are at a crossroads right now and maybe Fizdale was at least somewhat right for benching Marc.

I know marc doesn't want to leave Memphis and pera seems to think he has an open ticket to stay on the team. I think pera has looked at what San Antonio did as a measuring stick, but the difference between the spurs and the grizzlies is that it was Pop's way or the highway and Tim tried to fit in. Marc basically runs this team right now and until we cut the head off the snake it isn't going to get better.

its not about that

Unfortunately the FO has created a situation that we have virtually no assets, Marc and Mike are the only movable assets of any value (we are not trading Jaren!)

As I said yesterday, the assets we did have, we just let them go for no return, the stupidity of this being the FO knew this before they got let go and did nothing to convert them into something at the least.

The only way now to keep the franchise from totally collapsing is to start converting those assets into a decent return.

Parsons is dirt - he ain't worth a bumper - his contract needs to just fall off the books without moving it for more rubbish - that will create a fair amount of capsapace

Marc could net you some reasonable assets - people on this board underestimate his value - he has value to the right teams (e.g. Lakers), the trick is we have to get some reasonable return for it

Mike would be harder to move because of his perceived or real fragility - teams will take a big contract if they can count on the player playing most of it, and being good/great - Mike is good/great, but a gamble for his salary in terms of being able to play most of the season.

I'm not sure that if Marc opts out and takes a discount whether that will be enough, each year that passes his value depreciates - are we gonna turn him into another Zbo, who took a discount and stayed, and contributed but we depreciated his value to zero and let him go for no return

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10 minutes ago, Dwash said:

It matters to how stable your opinion appears. If I debated for the past few years that Zbo was the best scorer in Grizzly history and today I admitted that Conley is the best scorer in Grizzly history, one would conclude that I have probably slowly come to that conclusion over time, like you would for any reasonable person.

However, if just last week I was still vehemently debating that Zbo was the best scorer in Grizzly history without budging for years and wouldnt even consider Conley as the best scorer and now I just flipped today to Conley, one would say my opinion is untrustworthy or that I wasnt being honest all of those years and likely to flip again at the drop of a hat.

But anyway, there is nothing here about Gasol that you can repeat that most of us didnt figure out 2/3 years ago. I actually think you always knew it too, but was too committed to your contrarian role to admit.

Didn't most of y'all say that Zbo was the problem with our offense? I'm confused. It's clear to me that zbo was never the problem with our offense. He WAS the offense.

However, like MOST of us, I bought into the fact that Marc and Mike would be better without a lane clogger. But it is clear once again that we were all wrong. 

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3 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Didn't most of y'all say that Zbo was the problem with our offense? I'm confused. It's clear to me that zbo was never the problem with our offense. He WAS the offense.

However, like MOST of us, I bought into the fact that Marc and Mike would be better without a lane clogger. But it is clear once again that we were all wrong. 

no not really, Marc did benefit becuase he began to shoot a ton of 3s, and actually make them.

Mike benefited for a while but now is hurting, he is not the same physically as he was against Kawhi, he cant drive and get to the rack like he used to, he is probably protecting himself so he has become a 3-jacker, but has been terrible at it this season.

Also, you got to have multiple guys that can knock them down for outside to open things up - we hardly have had any, and the few we did have i.e. Daniels we got rid of because of perceived/real flaws in other parts of their game - but never replaced them with guys who can shoot decently

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4 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

no not really, Marc did benefit becuase he began to shoot a ton of 3s, and actually make them.

Mike benefited for a while but now is hurting, he is not the same physically as he was against Kawhi, he cant drive and get to the rack like he used to, he is probably protecting himself so he has become a 3-jacker, but has been terrible at it this season.

Also, you got to have multiple guys that can knock them down for outside to open things up - we hardly have had any, and the few we did have i.e. Daniels we got rid of because of perceived/real flaws in other parts of their game - but never replaced them with guys who can shoot decently

Which is true. But we don't have a way to get those guys so zbo created a huge void in the grizzlies offense, which we have not been able to replace. Jaren is great, but we need another creator, and a high level one at that for the grizzlies to be able to move away from the zbo era.

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1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

Fizdale wasn't the answer. Gasol isn't the problem. At least not entirely. The problem is the Grizzlies have no vision coming from the front office.

Is Wallace even running things any more? Has he ever really run things for that matter? Is Robert Pera aware of what is happening here? Is his attorney in charge? Is someone else running the show and Wallace is just the figure head of the franchise? 

Before the team considers trading Gasol there needs to be an identity or vision of what they want the team to become. The Grizzlies shouldn't just jettison players, any players, to get rid of them. 

The front office's moves have emasculated the coaches on the team. No one thinks they have any real power. Since Wallace arrived the Grizzlies have played 923 regular season games and 63 playoff games. That's a total of 986 games. 

They have had 6 people listed as Head Coach or interim head coach during that span. That is an average of a coach every a new coach every 164.33 games or basically once every other season. Let that sink in for a second. A new coach every other year for 12 years. 

Is it any wonder the inmates are running the asylum? Granted Wallace hasn't been in charge for the entire time - and may not be in charge now - but it has been his name on the door. Until the Front Office gets the cajones to support the coach over the players nothing will be run properly. 

And this is coming from someone who doesn't believe coaches make much of a difference to a team's record. It's the talent on the court that matters and that is a front office issue as well. The reality is the Grizzlies have sub-par NBA talent top to bottom on the roster and no coach will be able to consistently out-coach another NBA team who has a coach with more talent on his roster. When the front office fires the coach to cover the front office's failure to deliver the better talent you get the mess the Grizzlies are in right now. 

I don't know if Gasol can be salvaged but losing his talent would hurt more than keeping him around. Losing Conley would hurt more than keeping him around. Until the Front Office stops wasting money on injured players and filling out the roster with terminal bench players nothing will change. 

Clean out the Front Office dead weight and maybe the franchise will be able to turn things around. It is their fault not the coaches or the players.

Totally agree!

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41 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Didn't most of y'all say that Zbo was the problem with our offense? I'm confused. It's clear to me that zbo was never the problem with our offense. He WAS the offense.

However, like MOST of us, I bought into the fact that Marc and Mike would be better without a lane clogger. But it is clear once again that we were all wrong. 

Omg, I was only using Zbo as an example. Parallel logic.

But on that note a few folks can tell you that I always preached the importance of Zbo, a guy with the balls to take a shot when needed no matter how efficient he was and said Marc cant replace him.

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38 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Which is true. But we don't have a way to get those guys so zbo created a huge void in the grizzlies offense, which we have not been able to replace. Jaren is great, but we need another creator, and a high level one at that for the grizzlies to be able to move away from the zbo era.

yep that's right, but that was the poor foresight of the management and Fizdale thinking JaM was gonna be that guy - it was clear to most here that JaM ain't no Zbo.

I wanted Zbo, and Marc and Mike, to all retire as Grizzlies. No disrespect to Tony, but we could have got assets for him without being let go for nothing. But now, I'm thinking we need to find value for Marc for sure, and on Mike - I'm still undecided because its harder to replace a top flight PG, his health needs to be evaluated to make that decision.

It's pretty sad it's come to this if you ask me, but IIWII

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The other problem is:

Are you gonna trust Wallace or this FO to get us a good deal on Marc and/or Mike?

I don't, so as Chip says, that clean-out needs to happen before any movement of our top assets are considered.

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1 hour ago, BigHunkALove said:

 

Marc could net you some reasonable assets - people on this board underestimate his value - he has value to the right teams (e.g. Lakers), the trick is we have to get some reasonable return for it.

Salary wise it would be pretty tricky to trade Marc to the Lakers, would probably require getting one or more other teams involved. Most of their money is tied up in Lebron, unless they put Rondo and/or Ball in the trade you would be looking at a 4 for 1 trade leaving them with not enough players on the roster and us with too many. This is assuming Caldwell-Pope and his 12 mil salary are part of the deal. Without Pope it becomes even more lopsided numbers-wise when trying to match salaries

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23 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Omg, I was only using Zbo as an example. Parallel logic.

But on that note a few folks can tell you that I always preached the importance of Zbo, a guy with the balls to take a shot when needed no matter how efficient he was and said Marc cant replace him.

I can confirm because you were basically arguing with me at the time LOL   Turns out we were both right.  Because i believed that Conley could step up.

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The last year of ZBO the team was already struggling offensively. 

The defense from the guard positions have really drop off. Also take in consideration the new rule changes are making it worse for the grizzlies.

Even with ZBO what won games for the old Grizz was 4th quarter defense.

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Doesn't Marc have a player option next year? That drastically reduces his trade value as it limits the teams that would want him to teams that are OK with the serious possibility that he will opt out of his contract. Trading Marc isn't going to happen. The franchise will not get enough for him to keep the fans from burning the Forum to the ground.

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7 minutes ago, srmjr23 said:

Doesn't Marc have a player option next year? That drastically reduces his trade value as it limits the teams that would want him to teams that are OK with the serious possibility that he will opt out of his contract. Trading Marc isn't going to happen. The franchise will not get enough for him to keep the fans from burning the Forum to the ground.

This is true. 

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