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3 hours ago, chipc3 said:
2 hours ago, chipc3 said:
2 hours ago, chipc3 said:

Being lucky in the lottery (and not blowing the picks), being intelligent with free agent signings and re-signing players for affordable salaries are all signs that an owner/front office is intelligent and is a requirement for winning a title. Going over the luxury tax is not.  

Going over the luxury tax isn't a sign that the owner is committed to winning a title. It is a sign the front office is incapable of doing their job intelligently. There are far more examples of owners/front offices wasting money going over the luxury tax than there are examples of teams winning titles by buying players who put them into the luxury tax. 

Clearly money management and success are connected but you don't have to be foolish with your money to be successful and even win a championship. You just have to be smart in how you use the funds you have available. The Grizzlies have spent right up to the edge of the luxury tax. It would be foolish to continue to throw more money at the problem this season to make up for foolish decisions made in the past.  

 

26 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I bet that isn't what they do at all. At least now while Pops is still running things. I imagine he'll go back in the lottery, find another gem and move forward. It's worked in the past after all. 

I am trying to be consistent in my opinion. I don't believe that wasting money by spending over the luxury tax is a sign that an owner is committed to winning. It is a sign that the front office is incompetent. Teams that over-spend don't usually win titles. They just waste money. San Antonio has let fine players walk because other teams were willing to pay them more than their services warranted to the Spurs. The have coerced their stars to accept smaller salaries so they could continue to win games. They aren't going to suddenly forget all that and start spending $120 million on a player with broken knees or any other such stupidity. 

It just dawned on me why some people may believe the Spurs haven't participated in FA madness. They don't overpay for FA's. They get players on bargain deals instead. They contribute and help the team win but they aren't the type of players who are looking more for the money than the success of the franchise.

That goes along with my contention that being smart is more important than being big spenders when it comes to winning titles. 

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i'd still try to use jam,temple,selden,m.brooks rabb maybe  for a nice young player to come along with brooks , JJJ . , in my view i think its harder to find good players than it is to fix mistakes . jam and temple are nice but nothing great and are replaceable we need some 1 more guy that you cant replace .

 

i  think a great GM can find a way to win/improve no matter what , draft ,fa's etc.. the big thing to me is great gm's know when to go for it and cash in or cash out and take a risk . kind of like a great investor great risk calculations over the long haul and you will end up just fine ,  your  mistake along the way will be overlooked .warren buffet won't be remembered  as the guy that lost billions  with IBM and whatever airline companies .

 

 

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21 hours ago, Dwash said:

Thank you. The only long term piece doing anything was acquired unintentionally (JJJ). Can you imagine had this team not unexpectedly fell apart last year and have no JJJ? Hot mess.

But we do have Dillon and maybe Carter and Kyle.  We'll also have a ton of cap space in the next few years.  If done right,  we could be in a decent postion with a star through trade or signing

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19 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

I think that Lee and Temple have some similarities.  Temple hit 89 threes last season, Lee 113.  They both shot close to the same percentage.  They're both decent defenders.  If we had both of those guys instead of Selden or MBrooks we would be better off.

Maybe it is a bit of the "once bitten twice shy" syndrome, but it still remains to be seen if we can attract any real free agent talent greater than a Kyle Anderson (which was a very smart signing IMO).

Money talks,  if you make it rain,  they will come 😂 

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9 minutes ago, toocoolkellz said:

Money talks,  if you make it rain,  they will come 😂 

I don't believe so. New York and Brooklyn made it rain and players took the money but the teams still sucked. Dallas tried to recruit players with money for years but got nowhere until the traded for the rights to Doncic and suddenly they got the big man they thought they had two years ago. 

 

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Chip sorry I'm late to the party on this.

Just in response to your original question I think (or take it) that its been admitted or agreed by others responding that you have to be very lucky in drafting. You mentioned GSW who drafted a once in a lifetime talent in Curry, and struck luck with Green, in the original circumstance. Many teams have had better position in the draft and struck out (the most famous being the '84 draft but there are others like the Oden class)

The Spurs are unique, they've done a masterful job at scouting and coaching but KBM was right about Duncan.

I also think the landscape has changed a lot since then and agree you dont just waive wads of bills around and be guaranteed a championship, but it certainly puts you in a more likely probability to succeed if the owner has the facility to do this.

Back to the original thought, Parsons just needs to expire, maintain cap flexability moving foward, be smart scouting the right fit players for the right money, and enjoy and accept that continuously making the playoff should be classified as a form of success, which we've done ok in the last decade. 

There's no easy answer otherwise all the teams would have solved their problems 

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3 hours ago, IdrinkGuinness said:

i'd still try to use jam,temple,selden,m.brooks rabb maybe  for a nice young player to come along with brooks , JJJ . , in my view i think its harder to find good players than it is to fix mistakes . jam and temple are nice but nothing great and are replaceable we need some 1 more guy that you cant replace .

 

i  think a great GM can find a way to win/improve no matter what , draft ,fa's etc.. the big thing to me is great gm's know when to go for it and cash in or cash out and take a risk . kind of like a great investor great risk calculations over the long haul and you will end up just fine ,  your  mistake along the way will be overlooked .warren buffet won't be remembered  as the guy that lost billions  with IBM and whatever airline companies .

 

 

yes that's true, and that's where you would have to conclude, with the evidence available to outsiders like ourselves, that the Parsons signing was crazy (if it is true that our FO waived the medical and signed him anyway)

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1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

I don't believe so. New York and Brooklyn made it rain and players took the money but the teams still sucked. Dallas tried to recruit players with money for years but got nowhere until the traded for the rights to Doncic and suddenly they got the big man they thought they had two years ago. 

 

They didn't make smart buys with some view to the future, they just loaded up on players who would keep them in the win column, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Noah, Joe Johnson etc at that time, their age, and their talent, and for the money paid out, were not going to bring you a championship. And the ones calling the shots knew they'd made poor decisions, and then doubled down to keep their teams relevant - it backfired on them. Egos played a part in their demise as well.

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4 hours ago, chipc3 said:

 

I am trying to be consistent in my opinion. I don't believe that wasting money by spending over the luxury tax is a sign that an owner is committed to winning. It is a sign that the front office is incompetent. Teams that over-spend don't usually win titles. They just waste money. San Antonio has let fine players walk because other teams were willing to pay them more than their services warranted to the Spurs. The have coerced their stars to accept smaller salaries so they could continue to win games. They aren't going to suddenly forget all that and start spending $120 million on a player with broken knees or any other such stupidity. 

It just dawned on me why some people may believe the Spurs haven't participated in FA madness. They don't overpay for FA's. They get players on bargain deals instead. They contribute and help the team win but they aren't the type of players who are looking more for the money than the success of the franchise.

That goes along with my contention that being smart is more important than being big spenders when it comes to winning titles. 

Again the Spurs are unique, but if you look at the list of teams that are currently over the cap; many you would have to concur have owners who have made winning or winning the championship their stated goal - Houston is a good case in point.

Another case in point is Cleveland, they were desperate to keep LBJ, loaded up on contracts where the money and talent wasn't justified and now they are stuck with albatrosses like Kevin Love. So yeas, splashing the cash, is not the guarantee for success especially if its done in desperation.

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1 hour ago, toocoolkellz said:

Money talks,  if you make it rain,  they will come 😂 

They will but you gotta be smart about how its done.

You don't want to repeat mistakes like us with Parsons, Cavs - Kevin Love, Hornets - Batum, Nets - Joe Johnson etc, but I just struggle to completely believe no FA will come to a team like Memphis, given its recent performances (perennial playoff team), roster etc just because they wanna live in a big city. How's choosing Chicago working out? Paul George passed on LA to staying OKC, because of Russ and the roster.

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21 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

They will but you gotta be smart about how its done.

You don't want to repeat mistakes like us with Parsons, Cavs - Kevin Love, Hornets - Batum, Nets - Joe Johnson etc, but I just struggle to completely believe no FA will come to a team like Memphis, given its recent performances (perennial playoff team), roster etc just because they wanna live in a big city. How's choosing Chicago working out?

JJJ could be the great draft talent to bring other with him dream scenario like Curry was in Golden State and Duncan was in San Antonio. Jackson has NBA pedigree and unlimited potential.

Of course both of those teams followed up the franchise changing player with smart drafts. Golden State got Klay Thompson and Draymond Green plus a brilliant trade for Andre Iquodala. San Antonio followed Duncan (who paired with a healthy David Robinson) by drafting Tony Parker with the 30th pick and Manu Ginobili late in the 2nd round plus signing free agents like Bruce Bowen and Danny Green on very friendly contracts. Both teams made small but significant moves that didn’t break the bank. 

Again, it takes a smart front office much more than a large checkbook to be a champion. Houston already regrets opening their purse strings to get Carmelo Anthony. There are far more examples of teams screwing up spending money than succeeding.

Hopefully JJJ and Dillon Brooks are the start of the Grizzlies making smart moves and they continue to do so moving forward.

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4 hours ago, chipc3 said:

 

I am trying to be consistent in my opinion. I don't believe that wasting money by spending over the luxury tax is a sign that an owner is committed to winning. It is a sign that the front office is incompetent. Teams that over-spend don't usually win titles. They just waste money. San Antonio has let fine players walk because other teams were willing to pay them more than their services warranted to the Spurs. The have coerced their stars to accept smaller salaries so they could continue to win games. They aren't going to suddenly forget all that and start spending $120 million on a player with broken knees or any other such stupidity. 

It just dawned on me why some people may believe the Spurs haven't participated in FA madness. They don't overpay for FA's. They get players on bargain deals instead. They contribute and help the team win but they aren't the type of players who are looking more for the money than the success of the franchise.

That goes along with my contention that being smart is more important than being big spenders when it comes to winning titles. 

SA got good players who wanted to play for a championship, there isn't that many teams that can do that.Memphis isn't 1 of them but I do believe they blew money resigning some of their own FAs which could've been used to get better bench players.

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10 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

JJJ could be the great draft talent to bring other with him dream scenario like Curry was in Golden State and Duncan was in San Antonio. Jackson has NBA pedigree and unlimited potential.

Of course both of those teams followed up the franchise changing player with smart drafts. Golden State got Klay Thompson and Draymond Green plus a brilliant trade for Andre Iquodala. San Antonio followed Duncan (who paired with a healthy David Robinson) by drafting Tony Parker with the 30th pick and Manu Ginobili late in the 2nd round plus signing free agents like Bruce Bowen and Danny Green on very friendly contracts. Both teams made small but significant moves that didn’t break the bank. 

Again, it takes a smart front office much more than a large checkbook to be a champion. Houston already regrets opening their purse strings to get Carmelo Anthony. There are far more examples of teams screwing up spending money than succeeding.

Hopefully JJJ and Dillon Brooks are the start of the Grizzlies making smart moves and they continue to do so moving forward.

I'm not so sold on DB.

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4 hours ago, IdrinkGuinness said:

i'd still try to use jam,temple,selden,m.brooks rabb maybe  for a nice young player to come along with brooks , JJJ . , in my view i think its harder to find good players than it is to fix mistakes . jam and temple are nice but nothing great and are replaceable we need some 1 more guy that you cant replace .

 

i  think a great GM can find a way to win/improve no matter what , draft ,fa's etc.. the big thing to me is great gm's know when to go for it and cash in or cash out and take a risk . kind of like a great investor great risk calculations over the long haul and you will end up just fine ,  your  mistake along the way will be overlooked .warren buffet won't be remembered  as the guy that lost billions  with IBM and whatever airline companies .

 

 

The books on IBM and the airlines hasn't been closed yet.

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41 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

They will but you gotta be smart about how its done.

You don't want to repeat mistakes like us with Parsons, Cavs - Kevin Love, Hornets - Batum, Nets - Joe Johnson etc, but I just struggle to completely believe no FA will come to a team like Memphis, given its recent performances (perennial playoff team), roster etc just because they wanna live in a big city. How's choosing Chicago working out? Paul George passed on LA to staying OKC, because of Russ and the roster.

Kevin Garnett Paul Pierce

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16 minutes ago, LuvThem Grizzlies said:

Kevin Garnett Paul Pierce

Thank you, yes, thats is my point, and it almost got them there but in the end, when it didn't, they were stuck with ageing diminishing talent, and no draft picks.

I dont think Marc and Mike / Memphis situation is the same analogue but the next contacts, they are going to have to take cuts  (some may argue to cut ties completely)

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42 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

JJJ could be the great draft talent to bring other with him dream scenario like Curry was in Golden State and Duncan was in San Antonio. Jackson has NBA pedigree and unlimited potential.

Of course both of those teams followed up the franchise changing player with smart drafts. Golden State got Klay Thompson and Draymond Green plus a brilliant trade for Andre Iquodala. San Antonio followed Duncan (who paired with a healthy David Robinson) by drafting Tony Parker with the 30th pick and Manu Ginobili late in the 2nd round plus signing free agents like Bruce Bowen and Danny Green on very friendly contracts. Both teams made small but significant moves that didn’t break the bank. 

Again, it takes a smart front office much more than a large checkbook to be a champion. Houston already regrets opening their purse strings to get Carmelo Anthony. There are far more examples of teams screwing up spending money than succeeding.

Hopefully JJJ and Dillon Brooks are the start of the Grizzlies making smart moves and they continue to do so moving forward.

Again the Spurs are unique and Pop would have to be credited with a lot of that luck/success how ever one wants to term it

I hope so too, so far with Temple and Anderson it looks that way, but I also am not entirely convinced yet about Dillon long term as a central piece starter

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3 hours ago, chipc3 said:

JJJ could be the great draft talent to bring other with him dream scenario like Curry was in Golden State and Duncan was in San Antonio. Jackson has NBA pedigree and unlimited potential.

Of course both of those teams followed up the franchise changing player with smart drafts. Golden State got Klay Thompson and Draymond Green plus a brilliant trade for Andre Iquodala. San Antonio followed Duncan (who paired with a healthy David Robinson) by drafting Tony Parker with the 30th pick and Manu Ginobili late in the 2nd round plus signing free agents like Bruce Bowen and Danny Green on very friendly contracts. Both teams made small but significant moves that didn’t break the bank. 

Again, it takes a smart front office much more than a large checkbook to be a champion. Houston already regrets opening their purse strings to get Carmelo Anthony. There are far more examples of teams screwing up spending money than succeeding.

Hopefully JJJ and Dillon Brooks are the start of the Grizzlies making smart moves and they continue to do so moving forward.

Jerry West would laugh at you about this. You just described the pros and cons of the Shaquille O'Neal free agency.

Orlando didn't want to pay Shaq a hundred million. Jerry West was happy to do that.

Pat Riley was able to bring in LeBron James and Chris Bosh.

Danny ainge brought in Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.

It is rarer to win a championship like how the San Antonio Spurs won theirs.

I also will say this: just like with the proposed trade that would send Anthony Davis to the Lakers, more and more the small market teams and the less attractive teams are farm systems for the teams that are truly free agent destinations.

The Lakers can trade Brandon Ingram Alonzo ball and whoever else, and you would think yeah that's a great trade for New Orleans. But it ain't a great trade for New Orleans because those players are not going to win a championship for New Orleans. They are just going to develop themselves and bide their time until they can get out of their contract and go to a championship team (most importantly) in their prime.

The lakers aren't losing Ingram. They are effectively sending him to the Lakers g-league club until he gets enough seasoning to come back.

the same was true with Minnesota sending Kevin Love to Cleveland cavaliers. Great trade for Minnesota right? Wrong it's not a great raid because Kat and Wiggins are just developing their talent for the day that they leave and go to the Boston Celtics or the Lakers or Miami or whoever else is the prime.

The Spurs were unique they were unique because Tim Duncan was the most egoless Superstar that's ever been in the league. He was followed closely by David Robinson who was the second most egoless player to ever play in the NBA.

if you are a small-market team like Memphis the only possible way you can compete for a championship is to try to build a team based on defense. Otherwise you might as well just give up because you're never going to be able to keep the players that are true superstars in their prime. 

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We've been talking about John Wall on another thread, so I don't want to spoil that thread and idea, but I want to post this link for anyone who hadn't seen it.

We need to look at 2020 FA. I am in the stay put camp - do not make any trades for Parsons, let him drop off the books, Marc's contract also is due, we can sign him at reduced fee, Mike will have one more year to go. A ton of capspace, with the offeset to prepare to pay Jaren (if he continues like this) big bucks at the end of his contract.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20229609/nba-free-agent-2019-2020-team-team-lists

Without going crazy here, Jaylen Brown, Pat Connaughton are two that come to mind.

Also next year Nikola Mirotic is worth a look, he'd be a great fit in our team, next to Jaren, and also next to Marc.

And maybe some of the 2019 ones will be available in 2020 as unrestricted

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56 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

We've been talking about John Wall on another thread, so I don't want to spoil that thread and idea, but I want to post this link for anyone who hadn't seen it.

We need to look at 2020 FA. I am in the stay put camp - do not make any trades for Parsons, let him drop off the books, Marc's contract also is due, we can sign him at reduced fee, Mike will have one more year to go. A ton of capspace, with the offeset to prepare to pay Jaren (if he continues like this) big bucks at the end of his contract.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20229609/nba-free-agent-2019-2020-team-team-lists

Without going crazy here, Jaylen Brown, Pat Connaughton are two that come to mind.

Also next year Nikola Mirotic is worth a look, he'd be a great fit in our team, next to Jaren, and also next to Marc.

And maybe some of the 2019 ones will be available in 2020 as unrestricted

I get what you are saying, but the cold hard reality is that good & healthy free agents will not sign with Memphis.

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1 hour ago, Father Pat said:

I get what you are saying, but the cold hard reality is that good & healthy free agents will not sign with Memphis.

Time might be changing, Grizz got a guy who may be a SS. 

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This team desperately needs a better guard rotation. I understand we need a guy who can go get a bucket, but Marhson isn't it. I can't stand his game and it's so obviously completely different than our normal offensive scheme.

I like Temple well enough but if we could manage to put a package together to get just one good scoring option at the 2, either for the starting lineup or off the bench, this team would be SO much better. We desperately need Dillon back, but he wont  be the answer to all of our problems. 

The idea of trading Parsons is interesting, but the reason a huge expiring contract has value to any team is no different for us. Yes, other teams may be able to attract free agents and fill that space with a bigger name than the Grizzlies can, but it might be valuable to have the cap space ourselves to get 2 really strong scoring options in free agency when his deal is up.

That being said, we have to explore the idea of trading Parsons and taking back salary. If we could somehow manage to get Beale, I feel we would have to do it. Who is another team that will be really wanting cap space to get a free agent that has good trade targets for us other than Washington? And are there even teams out there actually willing to trade for Parsons anyway? 

edit: This is all under the assumption that Parsons doesnt suit up for the Grizzlies again. I've completely written off the possibility that he might contribute to the team in a positive way on the court. 

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9 hours ago, Father Pat said:

I get what you are saying, but the cold hard reality is that good & healthy free agents will not sign with Memphis.

So we shouldn't even TRY? 

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11 minutes ago, tjazz22 said:

So we shouldn't even TRY? 

Of course we should. Guys wanna play on good teams. We ARE a good team!

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12 minutes ago, BigHunkALove said:

Of course we should. Guys wanna play on good teams. We ARE a good team!

Exactly. I just dont like the "guys won't sign with us" mentality. We should always go for it IMO 

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