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New_Sacred_Cow

Memphis @ Los Angeles Lakers 11/05/17

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1 hour ago, smit-tay griz said:

Be serious.  I'll wager I watched more than you have since my provider never had any blackouts.  We were talking defense.  Tell me specifically which plays he screwed up his defense on and maybe you'll have some ammo.  I saw Chalmers, as well as others, getting beaten on the drive all game.  Nobody calls them out.  I saw Ennis turn his head and miss boxing his man off the boards while his man had a huge stickback on an offensive rebound.  Lots of players made mistakes that they shouldn't have.  Trying to put it on Harrison is silly.

I have no blackouts so I see them all...

I made a general comment about Harrison period, I just commented because for some reason folks still try to defend this guys play after all this time.  He wasn't the reason we lost this game, he just does not have a positive influence on the game when he comes in so he is not going to lead a comeback... putting him in when you are down only leads to, well, being down further.

And I put the blame for these type losses on Marc/Mike but you disagreed with that as well so who should we place the blame on?

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1 hour ago, notnilc20 said:

Someone please tell Brooks he must dribble the ball before he moves both feet.  He does that every game and there's no excuse at the NBA level.  We had so many opportunities but we stunk so bad in the first 3 quarters...the hole was just too deep.  Terrible Defense.

LOL, he has been watching the superstars of the NBA play too long, he must not understand there are different rules for Rooks...

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52 minutes ago, grizlsg said:

I have no blackouts so I see them all...

I made a general comment about Harrison period, I just commented because for some reason folks still try to defend this guys play after all this time.  He wasn't the reason we lost this game, he just does not have a positive influence on the game when he comes in so he is not going to lead a comeback... putting him in when you are down only leads to, well, being down further.

And I put the blame for these type losses on Marc/Mike but you disagreed with that as well so who should we place the blame on?

Tyreke made two boneheaded plays down the stretch. One, fizz promptly took him out of the game and put in Dillon Brooks. The second was the missed layup. He also missed a 3 pointer.

Little plays like these cost games. But you'll never see his flaws beyond this 20 points a night. You can't make those mistakes and win basketball games down the stretch. Period.

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1 hour ago, grizlsg said:

I have no blackouts so I see them all...

I made a general comment about Harrison period, I just commented because for some reason folks still try to defend this guys play after all this time.  He wasn't the reason we lost this game, he just does not have a positive influence on the game when he comes in so he is not going to lead a comeback... putting him in when you are down only leads to, well, being down further.

And I put the blame for these type losses on Marc/Mike but you disagreed with that as well so who should we place the blame on?

 

50 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Tyreke made two boneheaded plays down the stretch. One, fizz promptly took him out of the game and put in Dillon Brooks. The second was the missed layup. He also missed a 3 pointer.

Little plays like these cost games. But you'll never see his flaws beyond this 20 points a night. You can't make those mistakes and win basketball games down the stretch. Period.

Ennis made some boneheaded plays, his D was terrible, hardly contributed anything on O, and then coughing up the ball on a chance to tie the game or be 1 down with at least another possession to come....THATS boneheaded.

This and Marc chucking up 3s instead of GNGing their way back in....there's much of the reason why.

KBM, I've respected your opinions, but quit the blind jealous hate, Rudy and Tony are never coming back. You'll get more credibility if you be objective.

Ennis disappears in games, and having a PF who doesn't contribute anything except fouls doesn't help either.

Chucking 3s is a lazy way to try and get back into the game, the Grizz were lazy, and they paid the price

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4 hours ago, grizlsg said:

I have no blackouts so I see them all...

I made a general comment about Harrison period, I just commented because for some reason folks still try to defend this guys play after all this time.  He wasn't the reason we lost this game, he just does not have a positive influence on the game when he comes in so he is not going to lead a comeback... putting him in when you are down only leads to, well, being down further.

And I put the blame for these type losses on Marc/Mike but you disagreed with that as well so who should we place the blame on?

I'll agree with that.

As for Marc/Mike, the only thing I disagreed with you was your statement that we couldn't beat sub .500 teams.  As we have been to the playoffs the last seven seasons that would hardly be possible.  Sure, we have sustained occasional losses to sub .500 teams, but what team hasn't?  I've seen defending champions inexplicably lose to some bottom feeder that they should not have.  That's why we have an 82 game season, to not let aberrations dictate the outcome.  

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We are missing two projected starters. It's early in the year. I'm willing to wait until those two guys are starting before I clown on the team. Other than it seeming like we don't get up for the teams most feel we should beat, I don't have a lot of complaints.

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4 hours ago, BigHunkALove said:

 

Ennis made some boneheaded plays, his D was terrible, hardly contributed anything on O, and then coughing up the ball on a chance to tie the game or be 1 down with at least another possession to come....THATS boneheaded.

This and Marc chucking up 3s instead of GNGing their way back in....there's much of the reason why.

KBM, I've respected your opinions, but quit the blind jealous hate, Rudy and Tony are never coming back. You'll get more credibility if you be objective.

Ennis disappears in games, and having a PF who doesn't contribute anything except fouls doesn't help either.

Chucking 3s is a lazy way to try and get back into the game, the Grizz were lazy, and they paid the price

Listen, Tyreke didn't lose us the game. The grizzlies do what the grizzlies always do. Ennis was not the problem: fizdale was. How you take the ball out of Conley's hand there is mind-blowing to me, a guy that makes a ton of pressure buckets, so that you can dust of a tony allen cut through the lane play. It is plain dumb.

If Hollins were coaching this team, the grizzlies would not be losing these games. 

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8 hours ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

I felt it was inadvertent and you make a judgment call at that time. My judgment call would have been it was inadvertent contact and just gave him a regular foul, their judgment call was that it qualifies as a flagrant. They don't always call stuff like that a flagrant but oh well. 

Definition of a flagrant foul:

In basketball, a flagrant foul is a serious personal foul. A foul is considered flagrant when it involves excessive or violent contact that could injure the fouled player. A flagrant foul may be unintentional or purposeful; the latter type is simultaneously known as an "intentional foul" in the NBA. However, most intentional fouls are not considered "flagrant" and are performed safely as a necessity for time management.

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Below-average game from Gasol, who looked exhausted on a back-to-back. His conditioning has been an issue all season. I don't know exactly what Fizz is supposed to do about this. Maybe he is hoping Gasol will play his way into better shape. But, I think if and when we get JaMychal back and we've got more depth in the post, Fizz has to figure out how to keep Gasol's legs fresher, particularly on a back-to-back. I thought our interior defense was so weak in large part because Gasol just didn't seem to have fresh legs. The Lakers at several points were playing Julius Randle as their backup center. With more and more teams doing this, I think there is a real opportunity to work JaMychal in as a backup center for at least a few minutes per game, if need be. Or, Fizz could just play Wright a few more minutes. Or, Fizz could experiment with Deyonta Davis. But, it seems to me that Gasol needs to play shorter stretches at a time, and needs his total minutes played to come down a bit. 

Lack of fresh legs was so obvious with Gasol, I'm inclined to wonder whether it also was a factor in our wings, like Ennis, just getting beat off of the dribble repeatedly. That's not something you see often.

That said, it's impossible not to criticize Bickerstaff and Fizdale for not recognizing that the team was coming off of a back-to-back, in a typical letdown game scenario against a young sub-.500 team, and not making sure that the team was drilled on the proper game plan going in, in such a way that we gave ourselves the best opportunity to win. I'm noticing this as an emerging pattern, which is concerning. In the first half we chased guys around the top of screens who we should have been daring to take jumpers. So, just like in the Dallas game, our defense, by game plan design, handed the other team what they wanted to do on a platter, instead of taking away their strength and forcing them into something else. We should have switched everything, like Bickerstaff's defense was supposedly designed to do, and/or just gone under all of the screens, and dared the Lakers to shoot threes all night. That would have saved our legs and made the Lakers play to their weakness. It's so aggravating to watch us make the game harder on ourselves than it needs to be. But, just like the Dallas game, we lowered our chances through our own defensive scheming, or lack thereof.

That said, we're really struggling right now with depth. Jarrell Martin is struggling to contribute on both ends. Tyreke Evans looks like our best player, so there's real hope there for this team's long-term upside, but, especially on a back-to-back, we have to get more from the rest of the roster besides Mike and Marc. We really missed Parsons on both ends of the floor. And we really could have used JaMychal Green's athleticism and defense on the interior and some fresher legs on the perimeter. Again, Selden and McLemore just can't get back soon enough.

I watched McLemore in the Hustle's second game. He looked super rusty and out of shape. I hope I'm wrong, and maybe it's just a conditioning issue at this point, and his body will be able to adjust and bounce back quickly, but it doesn't look like he's very close to tip top form. He shot the ball well, and I absolutely love his mechanics, but it also just didn't look like he's ready for 30 minutes of high energy defense, court running, etc. 

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1 hour ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Listen, Tyreke didn't lose us the game. The grizzlies do what the grizzlies always do. Ennis was not the problem: fizdale was. How you take the ball out of Conley's hand there is mind-blowing to me, a guy that makes a ton of pressure buckets, so that you can dust of a tony allen cut through the lane play. It is plain dumb.

If Hollins were coaching this team, the grizzlies would not be losing these games. 

How do you take the ball out of Conley's hand? It's pretty easy to do that when you have a guy shooting on 60% in the last 2 games, it's called going to the guy with the hot hand.

The Lakers are younger, faster, taller nd more talented than the Grizz are, there wouldn't have been anything Hollins could've done and the Grizz played a tough game 27 hours before.

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Ok, while this team looks to have defensive ability, its become pretty obvious for whatever reason that they arent going to be a lockdown type of team every night. I mean they are already looking tired and lackidasical 10 games into the year. They will likely continue the pattern of reserving max defensive effort for high level teams/critical moments. Honestly this is what most good NBA teams do.

My question why do they remain average at best on offensive production? I have ideas, but I honestly dont know at this point. Has it really been Harrison? Guys like Mclemore and Jam are out, but I feel that they are bit players and good teams should be able be to work around not having them. It seems that they have a productive top 3, although Conley has been a little off. And he looks very weak on lane drives this year for the first time in years because his entire career he has been strong in the paint. But overall these three are close to what you can expect and its still producing an average offense.

 

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1 hour ago, Herodotus said:

Below-average game from Gasol, who looked exhausted on a back-to-back. His conditioning has been an issue all season. I don't know exactly what Fizz is supposed to do about this. Maybe he is hoping Gasol will play his way into better shape. But, I think if and when we get JaMychal back and we've got more depth in the post, Fizz has to figure out how to keep Gasol's legs fresher, particularly on a back-to-back. I thought our interior defense was so weak in large part because Gasol just didn't seem to have fresh legs. The Lakers at several points were playing Julius Randle as their backup center. With more and more teams doing this, I think there is a real opportunity to work JaMychal in as a backup center for at least a few minutes per game, if need be. Or, Fizz could just play Wright a few more minutes. Or, Fizz could experiment with Deyonta Davis. But, it seems to me that Gasol needs to play shorter stretches at a time, and needs his total minutes played to come down a bit. 

Lack of fresh legs was so obvious with Gasol, I'm inclined to wonder whether it also was a factor in our wings, like Ennis, just getting beat off of the dribble repeatedly. That's not something you see often.

That said, it's impossible not to criticize Bickerstaff and Fizdale for not recognizing that the team was coming off of a back-to-back, in a typical letdown game scenario against a young sub-.500 team, and not making sure that the team was drilled on the proper game plan going in, in such a way that we gave ourselves the best opportunity to win. I'm noticing this as an emerging pattern, which is concerning. In the first half we chased guys around the top of screens who we should have been daring to take jumpers. So, just like in the Dallas game, our defense, by game plan design, handed the other team what they wanted to do on a platter, instead of taking away their strength and forcing them into something else. We should have switched everything, like Bickerstaff's defense was supposedly designed to do, and/or just gone under all of the screens, and dared the Lakers to shoot threes all night. That would have saved our legs and made the Lakers play to their weakness. It's so aggravating to watch us make the game harder on ourselves than it needs to be. But, just like the Dallas game, we lowered our chances through our own defensive scheming, or lack thereof.

That said, we're really struggling right now with depth. Jarrell Martin is struggling to contribute on both ends. Tyreke Evans looks like our best player, so there's real hope there for this team's long-term upside, but, especially on a back-to-back, we have to get more from the rest of the roster besides Mike and Marc. We really missed Parsons on both ends of the floor. And we really could have used JaMychal Green's athleticism and defense on the interior and some fresher legs on the perimeter. Again, Selden and McLemore just can't get back soon enough.

I watched McLemore in the Hustle's second game. He looked super rusty and out of shape. I hope I'm wrong, and maybe it's just a conditioning issue at this point, and his body will be able to adjust and bounce back quickly, but it doesn't look like he's very close to tip top form. He shot the ball well, and I absolutely love his mechanics, but it also just didn't look like he's ready for 30 minutes of high energy defense, court running, etc. 

Great observations.   Fiz said last season that conditioning will be a big issue for the way he wants to run the defense.    I really believe that the real reason we loss was due to our lack of protecting the paint.       

I think we will look like a top 4 team in the league once we got our real depth back.    Parsons, JaMychal and Ben or Wayne are more important to our system than fans realize.   

Parsons provides floor spacing and keeps the ball moving while playing solid defense.    JaMychal provides floor spacing, energy, rebounding and defense.   Even more importantly Jam and Parsons keep Martin off the floor.  

Ben offers floor spacing and athleticism.   Wayne offers athleticism, slashing, and defense.   Even more importantly they keep Harrion off the floor and maybe help lessen the dependence on Chalmers too.  

Even though we keep having these wack losses; the most promising thing is that we are essentially playing with one hand tied behind our back and are still outperforming expectations. 

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8 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Ok, while this team looks to have defensive ability, its become pretty obvious for whatever reason that they arent going to be a lockdown type of team every night. I mean they are already looking tired and lackidasical 10 games into the year. They will likely continue the pattern of reserving max defensive effort for high level teams/critical moments. Honestly this is what most good NBA teams do.

My question why do they remain average at best on offensive production? I have ideas, but I honestly dont know at this point. Has it really been Harrison? Guys like Mclemore and Jam are out, but I feel that they are bit players and good teams should be able be to work around not having them. It seems that they have a productive top 3, although Conley has been a little off. And he looks very weak on lane drives this year for the first time in years because his entire career he has been strong in the paint. But overall these three are close to what you can expect and its still producing an average offense.

 

Remember after the Parsons signing Fiz said that he was going to have the "Lebron" role.   He is key to evolving our offense.  

I really believe that Parsons playmaking ability is on the level of Gasol and he is the key to transforming the offense.    As we have seen so far (and previous seasons)  Mike and Marc will always resort to their high PickNRoll and Reke will go ISO, whenever opposing defenses lock in.   Parsons is the only one that really sticks to keeping the ball moving and that's why our offense and defense looks better when he is in the game. 

Scoring-wise i think its safe to say that Mike and Reke should be our #1 perimeter options.    Now that Parsons is a 4 then he and Gasol should become our secondary options.   Then everyone else should be opportunistic scorers.  

I really think that key to season is going to be Fiz figuring out that we now have a new CORE4.  

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13 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Remember after the Parsons signing Fiz said that he was going to have the "Lebron" role.   He is key to evolving our offense.  

I really believe that Parsons playmaking ability is on the level of Gasol and he is the key to transforming the offense.    As we have seen so far (and previous seasons)  Mike and Marc will always resort to their high PickNRoll and Reke will go ISO, whenever opposing defenses lock in.   Parsons is the only one that really sticks to keeping the ball moving and that's why our offense and defense looks better when he is in the game. 

Scoring-wise i think its safe to say that Mike and Reke should be our #1 perimeter options.    Now that Parsons is a 4 then he and Gasol should become our secondary options.   Then everyone else should be opportunistic scorers.  

I really think that key to season is going to be Fiz figuring out that we now have a new CORE4.  

I like what I see from Parsons and more of him can help. However, he often appears to be a bump on a log out there. I am just wondering, especially with his health, if he will ever be trusted to be a consistent contributor? Can his knees hold up every night or will his body just have to many nights where it isnt feeling it? Guess that has to be seen.

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3 minutes ago, Dwash said:

I like what I see from Parsons and more of him can help. However, he often appears to be a bump on a log out there. I am just wondering, especially with his health, if he will ever be trusted to be a consistent contributor? Can his knees hold up every night or will his body just have to many nights where it isnt feeling it? Guess that has to be seen.

I really think the "minutes restriction" hurts his ability to really get into the flow of the game.  Until he is fully cleared i think we will continue to see huge swings in his production nightly.   Key thing is that he remains an floor spacing threat.   Because what has been consistent is his facilitating and surprisingly his defense.   He can still be a factor even when his shot isn't falling. 

 But this is why Tyreke has been so important.  He has basically taken over the scoring load Parsons was supposed to provide.  Which allows the team to have more patience with parsons rehab.  

Unfortunately, we are in a wait and see mode with him.  This may be premature but i hope FO is trying to figure out how to keep Tyreke beyond this season. 

 

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4 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I really think the "minutes restriction" hurts his ability to really get into the flow of the game.  Until he is fully cleared i think we will continue to see huge swings in his production nightly.   Key thing is that he remains an floor spacing threat.   Because what has been consistent is his facilitating and surprisingly his defense.   He can still be a factor even when his shot isn't falling. 

 But this is why Tyreke has been so important.  He has basically taken over the scoring load Parsons was supposed to provide.  Which allows the team to have more patience with parsons rehab.  

Unfortunately, we are in a wait and see mode with him.  This may be premature but i hope FO is trying to figure out how to keep Tyreke beyond this season. 

 

They dont have bird rights on Tyreke and the top 5 salary guys (big 3 + Jam/Mclemore) take up most of the cap. So if he becomes a 6th MOY, he will command more than MLE. Might be tough to keep. The cap would have to jump and some roster gutting to smsll contracts would have to be made.

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6 minutes ago, Dwash said:

They dont have bird rights on Tyreke and the top 5 salary guys (big 3 + Jam/Mclemore) take up most of the cap. So if he becomes a 6th MOY, he will command more than MLE. Might be tough to keep. The cap would have to jump and some roster gutting to smsll contracts would have to be made.

Oh right i keep forgetting about the Bird Rights issue.   Well i'd be willing to gut pretty much all the extra guys in order to keep him.  I'd sacrifice Ennis, Wright, Davis, Chalmers, and Harrison to keep him, easily.   Right now what he offers no one else on the roster can replicate. 

I mean if he really likes the team and maybe Fizz promotes him to Starting Lineup - maybe we can convince him to stay. 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I really think that key to season is going to be Fiz figuring out that we now have a new CORE4. 

 

1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

He has basically taken over the scoring load Parsons was supposed to provide.

...

This may be premature but i hope FO is trying to figure out how to keep Tyreke beyond this season. 

 

Reke was a project. I get the feeling that the FO wasn't expecting anything from him, at least nothing much and not for him to be a real contributor.

Oh sure, he was sold on being the primary scorer off the bench, but they weren't planning for him to be that guy. They were just hoping.

The new Core 4 hasn't been on the court yet. The NC4 (New Core Four) is Mike & Marc plus Ben Mc and Chancun.

We're only 10 games in  and after the road trip I fully expect Ben to finally crack the lineup. Once JaM is back I personally would finish this year with Chandler and Reke still coming off the bench. Most think that putting the top 5 scorer's in the starting lineup is the better option. I would rather stick with balance--three scorer's in the starting unit and two coming off the bench.

Come April, I would look to whittling down the rotation: Mike\Ben\Ennis\JaM\Marc with Rio\Brooks\Reke\Parsons. I would give Wright the majority of remaining minutes and everyone else gets spot minutes depending on matchups and fouls. I could even see swapping Brooks and Ennis if the rook continues to play at a high level

Still, going forward, Reke works well for this team scoring off the bench. But, yes, they need another scorer/shooter to go get 15 ppg in the 1st unit. Come January I expect that production to come from Ben Mc.

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11 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Oh right i keep forgetting about the Bird Rights issue.   Well i'd be willing to gut pretty much all the extra guys in order to keep him.  I'd sacrifice Ennis, Wright, Davis, Chalmers, and Harrison to keep him, easily.   Right now what he offers no one else on the roster can replicate. 

I mean if he really likes the team and maybe Fizz promotes him to Starting Lineup - maybe we can convince him to stay. 

Martin, Davis, Rabb, Brooks, Selden, Rade are the extra contracts. These guys plus the other 5 make up about 101 million. Cap last year was 99 million I think.

Rade is a sunk cost. Cant cut Brooks for sure. Rabb or Selden would end up being hard calls. Would have to find a taker for Martin and Davis.

Even with that...if the cap doesnt go up a McLemore or Jam would have to be cut.

Really, Reke has to take a MLE is discount at about 9 million. There just isnt a lot of room after those max 3 deals.

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33 minutes ago, Southern Dreadz said:

 

 

Reke was a project. I get the feeling that the FO wasn't expecting anything from him, at least nothing much and not for him to be a real contributor.

Oh sure, he was sold on being the primary scorer off the bench, but they weren't planning for him to be that guy. They were just hoping.

The new Core 4 hasn't been on the court yet. The NC4 (New Core Four) is Mike & Marc plus Ben Mc and Chancun.

We're 10 games and after the road trip I fully expect Ben to finally crack the lineup. Once JaM is back I personally would finish this year with Chandler and Reke still coming off the bench. Most think that putting the top 5 scorer's in the starting lineup is the better option. I would rather stick with balance--three scorer's in the starting unit and two coming off the bench.

Come April, I would look to whittling down the rotation: Mike\Ben\Ennis\JaM\Marc with Rio\Brooks\Reke\Parsons. I would give Wright the majority of remaining minutes and everyone else get's spot minutes depending on matchups and fouls. I could even see swapping Brooks and Ennis if the rook continues to play at a high level

Still, going forward, Reke works well for this team scoring off the bench. But, yes, they need another scorer/shooter to go get 15 ppg in the 1st unit. Come January I expect that production to come from Ben Mc.

I initially thought the new CORE4 would be Mike/Marc/Chan/JaM.    JaM basically becoming the new TA.  However, with the injury to Ben and JaM - i think Reke has seized the position. 

IMHO i think once everyone is healthy.  I believe Rio should the 10/11th man that basically plays whenever Chandler is out.  

Mike/Ben/Ennis/JaM/Marc and Reke/Wayne/Brooks/Chandler/Wright   with Rio getting minutes whenever Parsons is out or foul trouble.   Dude is a foul machine and terrible outside shooter.   We need more dudes capable of knocking down shots in rotation and playing high level defense without fouling. 

 

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1 minute ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Mike/Ben/Ennis/JaM/Marc and Rio/Wayne/Brooks/Chandler/Wright   with Rio getting minutes whenever Parsons is out or foul trouble. 

 

 

Dang, Reke can't even break into your rotation?

 

LOL

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1 hour ago, Southern Dreadz said:

 

 

Reke was a project. I get the feeling that the FO wasn't expecting anything from him, at least nothing much and not for him to be a real contributor.

Oh sure, he was sold on being the primary scorer off the bench, but they weren't planning for him to be that guy. They were just hoping.

The new Core 4 hasn't been on the court yet. The NC4 (New Core Four) is Mike & Marc plus Ben Mc and Chancun.

We're only 10 games in  and after the road trip I fully expect Ben to finally crack the lineup. Once JaM is back I personally would finish this year with Chandler and Reke still coming off the bench. Most think that putting the top 5 scorer's in the starting lineup is the better option. I would rather stick with balance--three scorer's in the starting unit and two coming off the bench.

Come April, I would look to whittling down the rotation: Mike\Ben\Ennis\JaM\Marc with Rio\Brooks\Reke\Parsons. I would give Wright the majority of remaining minutes and everyone else gets spot minutes depending on matchups and fouls. I could even see swapping Brooks and Ennis if the rook continues to play at a high level

Still, going forward, Reke works well for this team scoring off the bench. But, yes, they need another scorer/shooter to go get 15 ppg in the 1st unit. Come January I expect that production to come from Ben Mc.

You have much higher hopes for McLemore than I do. I don't see him getting us 15 ppg. As a matter of fact, I think he may turn out to be the one who's not producing much, but that's just me. I wouldn't be surprised if Selden displaces him.  I wouldn't put Tyreke in the starting lineup but I would find a way to get Parsons in it if he's healthy. I think he thrives off of ball movement and would work really well with Marc and Mike and finding JaM for lobs. Between JaM and Parsons, not sure who would play the 3 or the 4, it may be based on matchups. I think you need 3 scorers in your starting lineup, right now we just have 2. It may change after McLemore, Selden and JaM get back but I would seriously figure out a way to play Chancun and JaM together as starters.

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