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Grizzlies Need More Diverse Players Next Year


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#21 Dwash

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:48 AM

All Conley needs a backcourt partner that can run the offense with him. A Harden or Ginobili type. He is solid, but you can't count on him to run an offense for an entire game like CP3, DWill, DRose, etc. Even when those guys don't have it going, they find a way to contribute. When Conley is off, he's a liability. Where we are going to find that helper I have no idea....

#22 GrizzliesIQYO

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:12 AM

Diversity would be nice but it cost money to get quality role players ....that we don't have

YO

#23 grizzwhizz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:30 AM

View PostGTG, on 26 March 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Conley isn't perfect, but he's a good player. Besides, who could we realistically get that would be a major upgrade to MC11?

We have enough offensive threats which lessens the burden on Conley to score. I think he's one of the best options we could have right now.


this argument can go both ways, its just as easy to argue that with all these "offensive threats" that our offense should not be in the bottom half of the league, especially with all the easy buckets we get in transition.

I think that mike is very good, but his inability to hit a jump shot allows teams to clog the paint rendering our half court sets useless.

#24 Allen

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:17 PM

Conley is a way better shooter than you guys are giving him credit for. Hes a middle of the pack shooter at pg an not bottom level like you all are suggesting. Conley is very underappreciated on this board. We would be 10 + games under .500 right now without him running the offense as well as he does

#25 Southern Dreadz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:46 PM

Conley needs to take a page out of Rondo's book and drive to the basket an additional 2-3 times per game. That could easily account for 10 more points either from a layup, an assist, or drawing a shooting foul.

Similarly, Rudy needs to also remain aggressive going to the cup. He has to continue to put pressure on the zebras to blow the whistle.

Then next year with either DA or Speights hitting that 17 footer with Zach and Marc cleaning up off the other side these questions will become moot.

#26 CashConsiderationsFan

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:35 PM

View Postlilgregmonroe, on 26 March 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

With all the steals he's averaging (2.44), he's averaging almost the same TOs (2.22).

I'd say this is a good measure of your game knowledge. Conley is #10 in the league in steals/TO, and #5 among guards. Throwing that stat out that he almost turns it over as much as he steals it is ridiculous. Only 12 guys in the league have a ratio over 1 for this stat. (Grizzlies guards just happen to be 2 of them.)

(He's also #10 in assists, and #9 in assist/TO ratio, so I can't really complain about him in the assist department either. Only 2 guys in the league average over 9 assists, so that is kind of wishful thinking when you think Conley should be up there...by the way, those guys turn the ball over almost 4 times a game each.)

#27 Iggy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostAllen, on 27 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Conley is a way better shooter than you guys are giving him credit for. Hes a middle of the pack shooter at pg an not bottom level like you all are suggesting. Conley is very underappreciated on this board. We would be 10 + games under .500 right now without him running the offense as well as he does

Not true. Among pgs on pace to make 300 fgs, Conley is 17th in fg% among pgs. Among all pgs, he's 31st. Among pgs who average 20 minutes or more per game, he's 23rd. Among those who average 15 minutes per game or more, he's 25th. And he's 26th among pgs in 3pt fg% among those on track to make 55 3pt fgs. And 28th among all pgs.

He's not a good shooter based on any of those stats. And not middle of the pack. And remember he's left wide open half the time, unlike, say, Curry, Nash, or Paul. The guy clanks wide-open shots from inside the arc on a regular basis.

View PostSouthern Dreadz, on 27 March 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Conley needs to take a page out of Rondo's book and drive to the basket an additional 2-3 times per game. That could easily account for 10 more points either from a layup, an assist, or drawing a shooting foul.

Similarly, Rudy needs to also remain aggressive going to the cup. He has to continue to put pressure on the zebras to blow the whistle.

Then next year with either DA or Speights hitting that 17 footer with Zach and Marc cleaning up off the other side these questions will become moot.

Agreed. Conley doesn't put pressure on teams shooting that nasty shot from outside. Also, going to the rim will help space the floor and create opportunities for other players. I don't know why he plays so far away from the basket pounding the ball. Go into the lane, near the rim -- good things will happen.

#28 Allen

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:10 PM

View PostIggy, on 27 March 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Not true. Among pgs on pace to make 300 fgs, Conley is 17th in fg% among pgs. Among all pgs, he's 31st. Among pgs who average 20 minutes or more per game, he's 23rd. Among those who average 15 minutes per game or more, he's 25th. And he's 26th among pgs in 3pt fg% among those on track to make 55 3pt fgs. And 28th among all pgs.

He's not a good shooter based on any of those stats. And not middle of the pack. And remember he's left wide open half the time, unlike, say, Curry, Nash, or Paul. The guy clanks wide-open shots from inside the arc on a regular basis.



Agreed. Conley doesn't put pressure on teams shooting that nasty shot from outside. Also, going to the rim will help space the floor and create opportunities for other players. I don't know why he plays so far away from the basket pounding the ball. Go into the lane, near the rim -- good things will happen.

Hes 17th among pgs that have shot enough to qualify. Thats all that matters. A pg who is 4 for 6 shooting for the season doesnt count. Thats middle of the pack

#29 grizzwhizz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:34 PM

View PostAllen, on 27 March 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:



Hes 17th among pgs that have shot enough to qualify. Thats all that matters. A pg who is 4 for 6 shooting for the season doesnt count. Thats middle of the pack

I think Iggy wins this one. Mike is below average shooting. Plus a lot of his made fgs are layups in transition. Teams know this. Which is why he is wide open nearly all game.

#30 Allen

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:37 PM

View Postgrizzwhiz, on 27 March 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

I think Iggy wins this one. Mike is below average shooting. Plus a lot of his made fgs are layups in transition. Teams know this. Which is why he is wide open nearly all game.

Percentage wise he is 17th out of all the pgs in the league. Hes a better shooter than a lot of starting pgs in the league. Rondo, Dj Augustin, Rose, Kidd, Lowry, Collison, Sessions, Westbrook, Wall, Evans, Rubio, Felton, Jennings. Conley is a better shooter than all. Conley isnt a great shooter but he isnt close to as bad as you guys are acting and his shooting isnt nearly as big of a problem

#31 Iggy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostAllen, on 27 March 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Hes 17th among pgs that have shot enough to qualify. Thats all that matters. A pg who is 4 for 6 shooting for the season doesnt count. Thats middle of the pack

23rd among pgs who play 20 minutes or more per game, not 4 for 6 for the season. You lose.

#32 Allen

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:56 PM

View PostIggy, on 27 March 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

23rd among pgs who play 20 minutes or more per game, not 4 for 6 for the season. You lose.

link? espn has him at 17. How is he 17th overall but 23 among pgs that play 20 minutes? And what a weird stat to look up. only someone who is reaching would pull that up. Conley is a better shooter than a lot of starting pgs

#33 Iggy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:23 PM

View PostAllen, on 27 March 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

link? espn has him at 17. How is he 17th overall but 23 among pgs that play 20 minutes? And what a weird stat to look up. only someone who is reaching would pull that up. Conley is a better shooter than a lot of starting pgs

Hoopstats

Espn only includes players who are on pace to make 300 fgs, so no Curry, Dragic, Lin, Farmer, Nelson, Harris, or Chalmers. So you're saying those guys don't count? That sounds like a major reach. Also, if Stuckey is a pg, than Conley is 24th (espn counts him as one, but hoopstats doesn't).

#34 Allen

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostIggy, on 27 March 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Hoopstats

Espn only includes players who are on pace to make 300 fgs, so no Curry, Dragic, Lin, Farmer, Nelson, Harris, or Chalmers. So you're saying those guys don't count? That sounds like a major reach. Also, if Stuckey is a pg, than Conley is 24th (espn counts him as one, but hoopstats doesn't).

Your site says hes 31st out of 90 nba pgs. 31st out of 90 is horrible? Ahead of Wall, Holiday, Deron Williams, Lowry, Jennings, Barea, Rose, Kidd, Hindrich, Felton, Augustin, Rubio, Fisher, Flynn. You lost. Conleys lack of shooting is way blown out of proportion and overstated

http://www.hoopsstat.../12/2/fgpct/1-1

#35 Iggy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:03 PM

View PostAllen, on 27 March 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Your site says hes 31st out of 90 nba pgs. 31st out of 90 is horrible? Ahead of Wall, Holiday, Deron Williams, Lowry, Jennings, Barea, Rose, Kidd, Hindrich, Felton, Augustin, Rubio, Fisher, Flynn. You lost. Conleys lack of shooting is way blown out of proportion and overstated

http://www.hoopsstat.../12/2/fgpct/1-1

You're ignoring my point. He's 23rd or 24th (including Stuckey) among guys who play 20 min or more -- you know, guys that actually play heavy when their healthy. Stop trying to spin it

#36 masr

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:24 PM

How is Mike a liability on offense he averages 13 and 7, in my opinion for a point guard on a time like the Grizz, those are pretty solid numbers.

#37 Wells

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:01 PM

View Postlilgregmonroe, on 26 March 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Because steals/TO ratio is an overrated stat. LOL. Do the math. Assuming there are 2 points scored off of every TO or steal: 2.44*2 - 2.22*2 = 0.44. 0.44 difference per game isn't really that big. What about the points he gives up to opposing PGs? And you make it seem as if his quickness is that good. Most of the elite PGs in the NBA are cat-quick. I don't think he's really superbad, he's actually a very decent PG, I just can't understand some of the posters here give him more credit than he deserves when he actually has some weaknesses bringing the team down. Not trying to be contrarian here, just stating an observation.

After thinking about this some, I'll have to disagree with you here about the Steal/turnover ratio. Not all turnovers are created equal. Your two point assumption off a turnover is not really accurate. When a bad pass goes out of bounds or a player commits a charge, it counts as a turnover but the opposing team has to inbound the ball and you get to have a defensive set against them, often leading to a defensive stop. This is in contrast to a steal which many times leads to a fast break and a made basket. Mike's turnovers are typically of the bad pass variety where the ball has to be inbounded. He very rarely gets his pocket picked while he generates those type of turnovers by the opponents.

Tonight was a good example of this difference. The Grizzlies had a lot of turnovers, but they did not give up a lot of points off those turnovers. Why? Because they were turnovers that resulted in an out of bounds play rather than a fast break. In contrast, the Grizzlies generated a lot of points off turnovers because the turnovers the T'Wolves made were on steals and the Grizzlies got to the basket in fast break opportunities.

There's a nice article about Mike's effectiveness on the break because of his steals in the New York Times Online from yesterday.

#38 KoufosSnozz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostCashConsiderationsFan, on 27 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

I'd say this is a good measure of your game knowledge. Conley is #10 in the league in steals/TO, and #5 among guards. Throwing that stat out that he almost turns it over as much as he steals it is ridiculous. Only 12 guys in the league have a ratio over 1 for this stat. (Grizzlies guards just happen to be 2 of them.)

(He's also #10 in assists, and #9 in assist/TO ratio, so I can't really complain about him in the assist department either. Only 2 guys in the league average over 9 assists, so that is kind of wishful thinking when you think Conley should be up there...by the way, those guys turn the ball over almost 4 times a game each.)
None of those matters much when he misses open looks and lets opponents light him up, especially 3s. So S/T ratio is what makes him so amazing? Maybe a little, because it's all he could do to make up for everything. It's an overrated stat. And yes we would have lost without him a lot and he looks really good, because his competition is Pargo, Selby and just recently Arenas. I would not deny his mastery of the system, his abilities as floor general and all the other non-quantifiable intangibles he gives to the team. He just really needs to give more consistent scoring/shooting.

View PostWells, on 27 March 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

After thinking about this some, I'll have to disagree with you here about the Steal/turnover ratio. Not all turnovers are created equal. Your two point assumption off a turnover is not really accurate. When a bad pass goes out of bounds or a player commits a charge, it counts as a turnover but the opposing team has to inbound the ball and you get to have a defensive set against them, often leading to a defensive stop. This is in contrast to a steal which many times leads to a fast break and a made basket. Mike's turnovers are typically of the bad pass variety where the ball has to be inbounded. He very rarely gets his pocket picked while he generates those type of turnovers by the opponents. Tonight was a good example of this difference. The Grizzlies had a lot of turnovers, but they did not give up a lot of points off those turnovers. Why? Because they were turnovers that resulted in an out of bounds play rather than a fast break. In contrast, the Grizzlies generated a lot of points off turnovers because the turnovers the T'Wolves made were on steals and the Grizzlies got to the basket in fast break opportunities. There's a nice article about Mike's effectiveness on the break because of his steals in the New York Times Online from yesterday.
In the same vein that not all steals are made the same. Not every steal Conley makes leads to a fastbreak layup. At the same time, Conley's TOs could even lead to 3 point shots given our porous perimeter defense. The stat could go both ways. Maybe a better stat would be how much points off of stolen possessions and points lost out of TOs Conley has gotten per game.

#39 Allen

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:32 AM

View PostIggy, on 27 March 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

You're ignoring my point. He's 23rd or 24th (including Stuckey) among guys who play 20 min or more -- you know, guys that actually play heavy when their healthy. Stop trying to spin it

And your ignoring my point. im not spinning anything. How many pgs in the league average 20 or more min? Conley is 23rd out of what?

but look at the list of guys that Conley has a higher percentage than. This discussion is silly.

#40 dgause

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 03:54 AM

I don't think this team will win a championship with the current backcourt and head coach. Conley although underrated, needs a dynamic off guard next to him for this team to get to the next level. Will that happen? Who knows. As far as everything else goes, if only Dante was a legit 6-10. If only OJ could finally pull his head out of his booty hole and be the combo guard off the bench.