Jump to content


Photo

Trading Rudy Gay


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#41 tekneek84

tekneek84

    2nd Team

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 895 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2008 - 10:04 AM

QUOTE (chipc3 @ Dec 18 2008, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well we could try and develop our young players into a solid core that plays well together because they know how each other play and add around that core with draft picks and FA signings. Memphis has started lineups where not one player is over 23 yrs old all season. These players are still figuring out how to play together and what they need to do to play in this league. There is no reason to give up on any of them at this time. Great teams don't make major roster moves every year to their roster. They develop players and make small incremental moves instead.

I think the Grizzlies are planning on developing their youth and that means allowing them to struggle for a while together to form a chemistry. Players will get moved from time to time and the possibility of a Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett double trade is always possible but I would be more than shocked if such a thing occured. As Mr. Heisley told me once, a player making $9 million a year would need to sell an additional 5000 tickets to justify that salary. Does that sound like the kind of attitude that would pick up 2 or 3 max deals?


I agree. We can't get too ansy with trying to trade people after every big loss. We all knew that this was going to be a down year for us and to have won the games we have has impressed me already. Not to mention OJ's play. We're competing in the toughest division in the tougher conference. It's gonna take time.

#42 Kevin B Moses

Kevin B Moses

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,337 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2008 - 11:25 AM

QUOTE (MemphisX @ Dec 20 2008, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
KBM, the problem is that for Gasol to be a starter on a high level team one of two things have to happen: his physical condition must get better to increase his lateral quicness, athleticism and stamina or our PF has to be one of the tops at that position athletically.

This is why I worry about how even a Gasol/Boozer frontcourt would do defensively. Remember the object is not to win a bunch of regular season games but to compete in the playoffs. This is part of the reason why Utah is so horrible defensively. This is why I see Gasol more as a backup center on a high level team but a capable starter on a very good team if the PF is dynamic enough (think Perkins in Boston).

I want to see how he looks after a full NBA offseason of workouts.


Lets trade marc for pau then. If that's the kind of player you want. All I know is that Marc is the first big that the grizzlies have had that can defend Tim Duncan and Yao Ming and yet he's not good enough to be a starter on a "high level" team. Because defending Duncan or Yao or even Dwight Howard is not important unless he can do a running windmill jam. All I've heard when Pau was here was that Pau was soft and we need a physical big, now that we have one, you criticism him because he is not athletic enough.

But hey I know what you are saying. You want the total package. Let me remind you that there have been 2 players in the last 15 years that are that kind of player. Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. These are guys that can both anchor a defense and an offense.

Sure, Marc is not "quick", but he is physical, and he can control the paint, not by chasing players around the court, but by making them pay when they come into the paint, by boxing out, by denying position and not allowing other physical pf and centers to get good position down low, all skills that this quick pf of yours cannot do. AND he is a great passer. Is he KG, hell no. But who is? Amare isn't KG either as much as you want to believe he is, neither is howard even.

Like I said, if Marc can start to be a consistent low post scorer he is a force. Your lateral quickness argument doesn't seem to fit this discussion. Find a guy with lateral quickness down low and I'll show you a guy that you can physically take out of a game by pushing him around.

#43 Spartacus

Spartacus

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,621 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Forest

Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:14 PM

QUOTE (Kevin B Moses @ Dec 20 2008, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But hey I know what you are saying. You want the total package. Let me remind you that there have been 2 players in the last 15 years that are that kind of player. Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. These are guys that can both anchor a defense and an offense.

You can add Rasheed Wallace and Hakeem Olajuwon to that list of frontcourt players who were elite on both ends of the floor.


#44 Kevin B Moses

Kevin B Moses

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,337 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:22 PM

QUOTE (Spartacus @ Dec 20 2008, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You can add Rasheed Wallace and Hakeem Olajuwon to that list of frontcourt players who were elite on both ends of the floor.



Hakeem began in 85 - 86. Rasheed Wallace is a good example on a slightly lower level. BTW, I wish we could get another Hakeem! Man that would be sweet.

#45 Spartacus

Spartacus

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,621 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Forest

Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:02 PM

QUOTE (Kevin B Moses @ Dec 20 2008, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hakeem began in 85 - 86. Rasheed Wallace is a good example on a slightly lower level. BTW, I wish we could get another Hakeem! Man that would be sweet.

My apologies. You didn't specify "drafted in the last 15 years".

And I'd be happy with a player on the same level of any of that quartet.

#46 MemphisX

MemphisX

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,655 posts
  • Location:M.E.M.P.H.I.S.

Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Kevin B Moses @ Dec 20 2008, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lets trade marc for pau then. If that's the kind of player you want. All I know is that Marc is the first big that the grizzlies have had that can defend Tim Duncan and Yao Ming and yet he's not good enough to be a starter on a "high level" team. Because defending Duncan or Yao or even Dwight Howard is not important unless he can do a running windmill jam. All I've heard when Pau was here was that Pau was soft and we need a physical big, now that we have one, you criticism him because he is not athletic enough.

But hey I know what you are saying. You want the total package. Let me remind you that there have been 2 players in the last 15 years that are that kind of player. Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. These are guys that can both anchor a defense and an offense.

Sure, Marc is not "quick", but he is physical, and he can control the paint, not by chasing players around the court, but by making them pay when they come into the paint, by boxing out, by denying position and not allowing other physical pf and centers to get good position down low, all skills that this quick pf of yours cannot do. AND he is a great passer. Is he KG, hell no. But who is? Amare isn't KG either as much as you want to believe he is, neither is howard even.

Like I said, if Marc can start to be a consistent low post scorer he is a force. Your lateral quickness argument doesn't seem to fit this discussion. Find a guy with lateral quickness down low and I'll show you a guy that you can physically take out of a game by pushing him around.


Darko can also defend those centers. The problem is that you equate game 15 of an 82 game season with game 3 of a playoff series. These are not even in the same stratosphere. When an elite team with an elite athlete/talent has a week to come up with ways to exploit your weakness than it is different. I have seen it year after year in the playoffs, fans are left to wonder "what happened?"

Marc is not an upper level offensive nor defensive big man. This is why I think he needs to improve physically or he is a backup.

Also, the list is much longer: David Robinson, Dwight Howard, Shaq, Karl Malone, etc.

I don't expect Marc to be one of those type of players nor is it needed for him to be a starter. However, if he is who he is then the PF next to him must be an elite player either offensively or defensively.

For some reason, fans have erroneously got the notion that there is only one way to win in the NBA now due to the "faiulure" of the Suns. I deny that notion and think that a truly elite offense based team can have just as much success as a defense based team. I prefer an offensive based team myself and think it is easier to build and maintain. See New York. This is why I hope beyond hope that LeBron joins D'Antoni and saves the NBA from a return to RileyKnickVanGundyBoreBall.

I mean the sophisticated NBA observer would see that one of the most respected coaches in the NBA has a system closer to D'Antoni than BoreBall in Utah. It is based on an offensive philosphy. Heck, the Lakers are an offensive team also. The equation is the same in the NBA. Offense sells tickets, defense gets you respect, but more talent wins games. So you can build a defensive team here with little or no talent and go to the lottery just the same as we have without defense.

This is also why my two coaching preferences are so radically different because in the end the coach does not matter past the point of getting the players to believe they can win. Our players KNOW they can't win.


#47 The Truth is OUT

The Truth is OUT

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati ne Memphis

Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Kevin B Moses @ Dec 20 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From what I hear you saying, you believe the grizzlies would be better off finding a better main threat. Now I am probably reading more into your post than you are actually saying, but I can't help but wonder if miami offered beasley or portland offered aldridge that you'd ship Marc out so fast his head would spin.

If that is the case, then you and I see things vastly different. Trading Marc Gasol for Beasley or Aldridge you might as well trade him for Pau too and lets go back to being the powder puff grizzlies, all offense and can't stop nobody. In my opinion, Marc Gasol is as untouchable as OJ Mayo and I wouldn't even trade the guy for Blake Griffin.

One thing I know is that there is a vast difference among say, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett vs most of the other great young PFs. Most of the young Pfs in the league people think are great are scoring forwards and couldn't hold a candle to Duncan and KG total game, Marc Gasol is on the opposite end, he is a great physical defensive big and thus a RARE player. There is only 1 young pf off the top of my head that plays like Gasol and that is horford. But while horford is great he has limitaions in size.

If Gasol develops a go to move, he will be unstoppable and thus our 3rd superstar. Whereas, Beasley and Aldridge are never going to develop toughness and any of the great pfs are going to bomb on them every night. How many times this year has Marc taken a supposed superstar out of the game, more times than I can remember.


All I'm saying is that right now, I only see Mayo and Gay as "untouchables" long term. The only way I think we keep Gasol in 3 years is if he's truly borderline all-star and we're forced to pay him due to his performance and forced to not let him walk. I think after this contract he'll be close to a $10m a year man, and we can only pay that if he's considered a top 5 center, given we'll probably have to max out Gay, Mayo, and whoever we sign this season as a FA (assuming, and it's a fair assumption, that we make a key signing this offseason).

I'm personally rooting for Gasol to do well, but I don't know what his upper ceiling is, and I'm assuming it's a possibility we're seeing about the extent of what he will be, because he's played on a high competitive level already. The league he was in is already seen as the next best pro league to the NBA by many "experts".

So economically, even though I'd hate to see him go, we'd probably be forced to take a chance on a less expensive option at center after this contract is up. It's just the way the NBA salary-cookie crumbles.


#48 PragmaticIdealist

PragmaticIdealist

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,260 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:23 PM

QUOTE (MemphisX @ Dec 20 2008, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Darko can also defend those centers. The problem is that you equate game 15 of an 82 game season with game 3 of a playoff series. These are not even in the same stratosphere. When an elite team with an elite athlete/talent has a week to come up with ways to exploit your weakness than it is different. I have seen it year after year in the playoffs, fans are left to wonder "what happened?"

Marc is not an upper level offensive nor defensive big man. This is why I think he needs to improve physically or he is a backup.

Also, the list is much longer: David Robinson, Dwight Howard, Shaq, Karl Malone, etc.

I don't expect Marc to be one of those type of players nor is it needed for him to be a starter. However, if he is who he is then the PF next to him must be an elite player either offensively or defensively.

For some reason, fans have erroneously got the notion that there is only one way to win in the NBA now due to the "faiulure" of the Suns. I deny that notion and think that a truly elite offense based team can have just as much success as a defense based team. I prefer an offensive based team myself and think it is easier to build and maintain. See New York. This is why I hope beyond hope that LeBron joins D'Antoni and saves the NBA from a return to RileyKnickVanGundyBoreBall.

I mean the sophisticated NBA observer would see that one of the most respected coaches in the NBA has a system closer to D'Antoni than BoreBall in Utah. It is based on an offensive philosphy. Heck, the Lakers are an offensive team also. The equation is the same in the NBA. Offense sells tickets, defense gets you respect, but more talent wins games. So you can build a defensive team here with little or no talent and go to the lottery just the same as we have without defense.

This is also why my two coaching preferences are so radically different because in the end the coach does not matter past the point of getting the players to believe they can win. Our players KNOW they can't win.



This i agree with and is the ultimate point of my thread.IMO we NEED an elite post threat to compete for a championship. We don't need one just to win games. Rudy may be the next Vince Carter,which is great talent and is fun to watch. But we need a karl malone, tim duncan, kevin garnett, dwight howard, shaq, a Rasheed, an Amare, to win a championship. Boozer might fit that. A Pau or Dirk might work if we have a good enough defensive presence beside them. But overall we need a serious post threat to be competitive in the future. If FA and the draft fails to get that for us then that means trade. Trading for such a pf will not happen straight up. We will have to role the dice and try to trade for one before anyone KNOWS they will be elite.

Thats the point I was getting at.

I think both Gasol and Darko are developing nicely into very very strong role players. But i dont think either are developing into elite post players.

#49 Kevin B Moses

Kevin B Moses

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,337 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:55 PM

QUOTE (MemphisX @ Dec 20 2008, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Darko can also defend those centers. The problem is that you equate game 15 of an 82 game season with game 3 of a playoff series. These are not even in the same stratosphere. When an elite team with an elite athlete/talent has a week to come up with ways to exploit your weakness than it is different. I have seen it year after year in the playoffs, fans are left to wonder "what happened?"

Marc is not an upper level offensive nor defensive big man. This is why I think he needs to improve physically or he is a backup.

Also, the list is much longer: David Robinson, Dwight Howard, Shaq, Karl Malone, etc.

I don't expect Marc to be one of those type of players nor is it needed for him to be a starter. However, if he is who he is then the PF next to him must be an elite player either offensively or defensively.

For some reason, fans have erroneously got the notion that there is only one way to win in the NBA now due to the "faiulure" of the Suns. I deny that notion and think that a truly elite offense based team can have just as much success as a defense based team. I prefer an offensive based team myself and think it is easier to build and maintain. See New York. This is why I hope beyond hope that LeBron joins D'Antoni and saves the NBA from a return to RileyKnickVanGundyBoreBall.

I mean the sophisticated NBA observer would see that one of the most respected coaches in the NBA has a system closer to D'Antoni than BoreBall in Utah. It is based on an offensive philosphy. Heck, the Lakers are an offensive team also. The equation is the same in the NBA. Offense sells tickets, defense gets you respect, but more talent wins games. So you can build a defensive team here with little or no talent and go to the lottery just the same as we have without defense.

This is also why my two coaching preferences are so radically different because in the end the coach does not matter past the point of getting the players to believe they can win. Our players KNOW they can't win.


Gasol has shown me nothing to indicate that he isn't an elite defender. What is your evidence of this? What do you do memphis X, you look at the guys athletic ability to determine your conclusions? No, this is what you are doing. You watch the guy guarding a 6' 8" so called power forward and say, well, he's getting beat off the dribble so he must not be an elite defender.

You can't have it both ways. You want another Pau Gasol, fine. But don't tell me that replacing Marc with a shooting combo forward that you don't lose toughness.

Any real sophisticated NBA observer realizes that in the playoffs it is all about the half court sets and defense and if you can't score in the half court set you can't win, and all those athletic pfs you are talking about do fine in the open court but put a body on them and make them play in the half court and they'll wilt just like pau did.

Question: How do you create space in the half court sets, how do you get an offensive or defensive rebound? You don't do it with the beasley's of the world, that's for sure. You do it by having great guard play and putting a bodu on somebody, or haven't you forgot?



#50 Monkey Boy

Monkey Boy

    2nd Team

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,405 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

Posted 20 December 2008 - 03:38 PM

I'm having trouble trading anyone at this point because my thoughts are our Coach is making every single player on the team worse.

When you have absolutely no plays to get anyone an open shot, then you can't truely evaluate any talent.