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Troy Williams Appreciation Thread


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#21 Kevin B Moses

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:19 AM

So a rookie is being demoted and another released to create PT for a veteran who was out of the league.

I wonder if those who were critical of Joerger for the Grizzlies FO releasing Ennis for a veteran center last year will be critical of Fizdale releasing Williams for Douglas this year? Or will they criticize Wallace for both deals?

More likely they'll continue to make excuses for Fizdale/Wallace and defend the team not developing youth in a season where the team is in 7th place in the conference when basically healthy. They'll continue to defend Fizdale starting Parsons over Ennis, releasing Troy Williams for Toney Douglas, demoting Harrison and Martin so Brandan Wright and Toney Douglas can get minutes and still proclaim Fizdale is trying to develop youth.

The truth is that Fizdale is playing only veterans of at least 3 NBA seasons now. He's playing 40 year old Vince Carter and broken down, out of shape Chandler Parsons while releasing a promising rookie in Troy Williams. I'm not critical of this either. I just feel those who criticized Joerger/Wallace last year are being hypocritical now.

 

The grizzlies are 2.5 games out of 4th seed with a realistic shot at it. And they have not been healthy the whole year, so I am not sure why you'd label it, "basically healthy." They haven't been basically healthy the whole year. Plus, they are 20-10 against the west and they have a winning record against every team but the clippers above them in the standings.

 

So, your post is pretty much inaccurate all the way around, other than the fact that they currently sit 7th in the west.



#22 Ndq0327

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:21 AM

Did Fizdale "play the young guys" by desire or lack of alternatives? Gasol was on a minute restriction. Conley was on a minute restriction. Parsons was still recovering from injury. Wright was injured as well. The only move toward youth has been 26 year old JaMychal Green for Randolph in the starting lineup and even then Randolph not Green closes games (something I feel is more important). Fizdale was forced to play youth early because he didn't have enough healthy veterans to play. Even Troy Daniels had to play out of his head to start seeing minutes and they have been sporadic at best.


Agreed but fizz comes from a background with the heat where they were playing young over the old guys, so I know its in him unlike with Joerger being from Hollins tree. These decisions fall on Wallace he put this roster together. Another reason. Why I could see young guys not getting the proper run they deserve, is cause we waited too long to rely on younger players. Had we done it right our younger player should be second and third year guys like Jam and Ennis instead of rookies(Martin included). Yet we wasted so much time cycling vets to the point that now that they need some solid young back ups we don't have any cause it was never a priority to think ahead to this day.

#23 Ndq0327

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:26 AM

The grizzlies are 2.5 games out of 4th seed with a realistic shot at it. And they have not been healthy the whole year, so I am not sure why you'd label it, "basically healthy." They haven't been basically healthy the whole year. Plus, they are 20-10 against the west and they have a winning record against every team but the clippers above them in the standings.

So, your post is pretty much inaccurate all the way around, other than the fact that they currently sit 7th in the west.


Who cares healthy, injured, partially healthy, or missing the 15th man it doesn't matter. This team doesn't have the mentality to win the big one even if they were given a 3-0 lead. Stop making excuses, they are wasting time trying to accomplish a short term goal while in the background the foundation is crumbling and as soon as Mike, Marc, Zbo, or TA fall off the cliff this team will die, cause those 4 are all they have and they are all they care about.

#24 Kevin B Moses

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:35 AM

Who cares healthy, injured, partially healthy, or missing the 15th man it doesn't matter. This team doesn't have the mentality to win the big one even if they were given a 3-0 lead. Stop making excuses, they are wasting time trying to accomplish a short term goal while in the background the foundation is crumbling and as soon as Mike, Marc, Zbo, or TA fall off the cliff this team will die, cause those 4 are all they have and they are all they care about.

 

 

I believe that the year that they went to the west finals that with Rudy they might have gotten there. I also believe that if Conley and TA did not get hurt that year they would have possibly got past gs.

 

If you remember that year the grizzlies were 13th in offensive rating and 3rd in defensive rating, by far the best they have every been on both offense and defense.

 

The grizzlies have a history of beating gs, and it was only last year when the grizzlies were getting blown out by 50 against teams when everybody jumped off the bandwagon.

 

So I don't agree. I think that the grizzlies have had a lot of bad luck which has caused undue problems in the playoffs, but they are one of the best clutch teams in the league. Hopefully the grizzlies will be healthy this year throughout the playoffs and let's see what happens.



#25 grizz4sho

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:43 AM

I haven't posted on this board in ages but felt compelled to add my 2 cents about how disgusted I am about this move.  No Troy wasn't ready to contribute this year, but we could all see that he had a ton of potential plus he had a couple of things you cannot teach, heart & hustle!  I hope the kid gets picked up by another team and blossoms. 

 

Good Luck Troy and BOOOOOO to the Grizzlies front office!



#26 Ndq0327

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:46 AM

I believe that the year that they went to the west finals that with Rudy they might have gotten there. I also believe that if Conley and TA did not get hurt that year they would have possibly got past gs.

If you remember that year the grizzlies were 13th in offensive rating and 3rd in defensive rating, by far the best they have every been on both offense and defense.

The grizzlies have a history of beating gs, and it was only last year when the grizzlies were getting blown out by 50 against teams when everybody jumped off the bandwagon.

So I don't agree. I think that the grizzlies have had a lot of bad luck which has caused undue problems in the playoffs, but they are one of the best clutch teams in the league. Hopefully the grizzlies will be healthy this year throughout the playoffs and let's see what happens.


They Were those thing but guess what happened the league kept evolving and getting better and the Grizz are the same. Sure they shoot threes now but the mentality is still the same they had their chance when the went to the WCF that was their Dallas moment to sneak a championship away from the better teams but their luck ran out against SA and it hasn't been back since. But NOTHING has changed about the team's mentality since then. They still hold on to that WCF like they can get back there with a tweak here or there, completely oblivious to the fact that aside from the clippers the other teams have changed or gotten better. If they couldn't do it when they were healthy and in their primes why would they be able to do it healthy now?

#27 Ndq0327

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:48 AM

I haven't posted on this board in ages but felt compelled to add my 2 cents about how disgusted I am about this move. No Troy wasn't ready to contribute this year, but we could all see that he had a ton of potential plus he had a couple of things you cannot teach, heart & hustle! I hope the kid gets picked up by another team and blossoms.

Good Luck Troy and BOOOOOO to the Grizzlies front office!


He likely will and he'll be the new Whiteside we dropped the ball with him and now we have dropped it again.

#28 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:55 AM

@Chip you are being ridiculous trying to assert that Fiz dislikes playing young guys in the same vein as Hollins and Joerger.    

 

Harrison(a rookie) was closing and playing over 30mpg even when Vince, Tony, and Ennis were available.   I don't understand why Fiz gets no credit for giving Harrison time.   

 

He played Jarrell legitimate minutes and even started him.   Troy Williams started and got minutes as an undrafted rookie.  You cannot automatically assume this was only because of injuries.  

 

Ennis and JaM are young guys (NBA experience) getting real rotation minutes and have legit roles.  Joerger didn't want Ennis at all.   Lionel would've never played Daniels (another young guy) because of his defensive shortcomings.

 

The entire composition of this roster was crappy to begin with.   NO COACH would be able to navigate 4 completely inexperienced rookies with aging veterans and big money players coming off serious injuries - 100% successfully.  Some of ya'll aren't being realistic.

 

Moving Troy Williams to sign Toney Douglas is a Wallace failure.   Fiz has already SHOWN that he is willing to play young guys.   Chip what do you want him to do?   Start Wade + Williams and Davis together and play them 35mpg?   I understand by being a Grizz fan for so long that you really don't have a true understanding of what rookie development means.   Giving them minutes outside of garbage time and giving them a real opportunity to earn their spot is all a coach can do.  Whenever the vets were stinking it up - Fiz had no problem bringing in the young guys.   Joerger would never do that. 

 

Realistically, most teams can only develop at most 2  rookies on a playoff team at a time.  There are only two spots on our roster where those minutes can be given out due to the clutter on the wing.   Point Guard and Center.  Fiz obviously played Harrison and gave Wade a chance too.   Davis got real NBA minutes outside of garbage time but he has been injured.  Williams is battling an overall productive Vince, Tony, Ennis and surgent Daniels for minutes.   Not to mention he gets further pushed out due to integration of Chandler.    There is no justification that Troy Williams as an undrafted rookie can get minutes over all those guys;unless Fiz is willing to deal with a full fledged mutiny Troy is the casualty of Wallace's roster failure. 

 

 Spurs get a ton of love when it comes to development but even they don't throw 3-4 rookies out there in the same season.   Typically they focus on integrating one rookie a season.  Which is something I personally have been begging for.   No sane basketball fan thinks a playoff team should be trying to integrate 4 rookies and a limited experienced second year guy into the rotation.   



#29 Ndq0327

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:57 AM

He gets no credit cause it didn't work and is causing us to lose the best rookie we had on the **** roster

#30 chipc3

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:58 AM

Agreed but fizz comes from a background with the heat where they were playing young over the old guys, so I know its in him unlike with Joerger being from Hollins tree. These decisions fall on Wallace he put this roster together. Another reason. Why I could see young guys not getting the proper run they deserve, is cause we waited too long to rely on younger players. Had we done it right our younger player should be second and third year guys like Jam and Ennis instead of rookies(Martin included). Yet we wasted so much time cycling vets to the point that now that they need some solid young back ups we don't have any cause it was never a priority to think ahead to this day.

 

I've always placed the blame on Wallace. I felt those who wanted to blame Joerger for the roster moves were ignoring who had the real power. Fizdale may have asked for a veteran PG. Joerger may have asked for a veteran big man. Wallace is in charge and it is ultimately his call. Clearly the man on top supports and endorses these moves or he's too weak for the job. Either way, roster moves are his job not the coaches and people should realize this and stop blaming the coaches for personnel moves. 



#31 Ndq0327

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:01 AM

@Chip you are being ridiculous trying to assert that Fiz dislikes playing young guys in the same vein as Hollins and Joerger.

Harrison(a rookie) was closing and playing over 30mpg even when Vince, Tony, and Ennis were available. I don't understand why Fiz gets no credit for giving Harrison time.

He played Jarrell legitimate minutes and even started him. Troy Williams started and got minutes as an undrafted rookie. You cannot automatically assume this was only because of injuries.

Ennis and JaM are young guys (NBA experience) getting real rotation minutes and have legit roles. Joerger didn't want Ennis at all. Lionel would've never played Daniels (another young guy) because of his defensive shortcomings.

The entire composition of this roster was crappy to begin with. NO COACH would be able to navigate 4 completely inexperienced rookies with aging veterans and big money players coming off serious injuries - 100% successfully. Some of ya'll aren't being realistic.

Moving Troy Williams to sign Toney Douglas is a Wallace failure. Fiz has already SHOWN that he is willing to play young guys. Chip what do you want him to do? Start Wade + Williams and Davis together and play them 35mpg? I understand by being a Grizz fan for so long that you really don't have a true understanding of what rookie development means. Giving them minutes outside of garbage time and giving them a real opportunity to earn their spot is all a coach can do. Whenever the vets were stinking it up - Fiz had no problem bringing in the young guys. Joerger would never do that.

Realistically, most teams can only develop at most 2 rookies on a playoff team at a time. There are only two spots on our roster where those minutes can be given out due to the clutter on the wing. Point Guard and Center. Fiz obviously played Harrison and gave Wade a chance too. Davis got real NBA minutes outside of garbage time but he has been injured. Williams is battling an overall productive Vince, Tony, Ennis and surgent Daniels for minutes. Not to mention he gets further pushed out due to integration of Chandler. There is no justification that Troy Williams as an undrafted rookie can get minutes over all those guys;unless Fiz is willing to deal with a full fledged mutiny Troy is the casualty of Wallace's roster failure.

Spurs get a ton of love when it comes to development but even they don't throw 3-4 rookies out there in the same season. Typically they focus on integrating one rookie a season. Which is something I personally have been begging for. No sane basketball fan thinks a playoff team should be trying to integrate 4 rookies and a limited experienced second year guy into the rotation.


Your point is valid and that's why I put the blame on Wallace for putting this roster together the way it's constructed Troy wouldn't get PT because of locker room politics see that aside Troy should be the starting sg, but since that is impossible her gets off man out treatment. Harrison should have been the one to go but that falls on them being cheap clearly

#32 Ndq0327

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:02 AM

I've always placed the blame on Wallace. I felt those who wanted to blame Joerger for the roster moves were ignoring who had the real power. Fizdale may have asked for a veteran PG. Joerger may have asked for a veteran big man. Wallace is in charge and it is ultimately his call. Clearly the man on top supports and endorses these moves or he's too weak for the job. Either way, roster moves are his job not the coaches and people should realize this and stop blaming the coaches for personnel moves.


Agreed

#33 Dwash

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:12 AM

So a rookie is being demoted and another released to create PT for a veteran who was out of the league.

I wonder if those who were critical of Joerger for the Grizzlies FO releasing Ennis for a veteran center last year will be critical of Fizdale releasing Williams for Douglas this year? Or will they criticize Wallace for both deals?

More likely they'll continue to make excuses for Fizdale/Wallace and defend the team not developing youth in a season where the team is in 7th place in the conference when basically healthy. They'll continue to defend Fizdale starting Parsons over Ennis, releasing Troy Williams for Toney Douglas, demoting Harrison and Martin so Brandan Wright and Toney Douglas can get minutes and still proclaim Fizdale is trying to develop youth.

The truth is that Fizdale is playing only veterans of at least 3 NBA seasons now. He's playing 40 year old Vince Carter and broken down, out of shape Chandler Parsons while releasing a promising rookie in Troy Williams. I'm not critical of this either. I just feel those who criticized Joerger/Wallace last year are being hypocritical now.

 

Chip, I don't know if you are just trying to stir up stuff, but how in the world can we be critical of Fizdale's usage of Williams when he was given a legitimate shot to play?  There are 4 wings ahead of of Williams right now that are more productive players (plus Vince is playing better) and 3 of them are in their mid 20's.  Last year, there was no wing in their mid 20's worth a crap on the roster and Ennis was not even given a crack.

 

It sucks that he was cut, but I  predicted that he would be cut earlier this year for Toney Douglas or a scrap pile pg.  It's how this organization is run, no matter who is coaching.



#34 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:14 AM

To be fair this move is all about Wallace screwing the pooch from the beginning and signing all these injury-prone guys and being too loyal to CORE guys.

 

Troy Williams wouldn't have to be cut IF

  • Wallace is willing to trade Tony or Vince to clear up clutter on wings
  • BWright was tradeable
  • Wallace didn't promise Harrison a roster spot and instead used that to get a vet PG from the start. 

 

 

I've always placed the blame on Wallace. I felt those who wanted to blame Joerger for the roster moves were ignoring who had the real power. Fizdale may have asked for a veteran PG. Joerger may have asked for a veteran big man. Wallace is in charge and it is ultimately his call. Clearly the man on top supports and endorses these moves or he's too weak for the job. Either way, roster moves are his job not the coaches and people should realize this and stop blaming the coaches for personnel moves. 

Joerger directly affected roster move of re-signing Ryan Hollins several times and getting vet PGs..   Hollins got young-ins cut to pick up Vet PG's every season we went to playoffs under him. 

 

Coaches have a voice. 

 

Personally, I am not against picking up Toney considering how fragile Mike is and how sucky Harrison usually is.   We need the PG depth.    I just wish we could've done a trade to address PG situation instead of cutting the promising young guy.



#35 New_Sacred_Cow

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:16 AM

Not a fan of this move at all. Would rather have tried to get a future second draft pick for Harrison or Martin. Troy Williams played with a spark and heart. Fit the Grizzlies perfectly with balanced offense and defense.

 

Side question: I saw it floating around that team roster number might increase with the new CBA...did anything happen with that?



#36 chipc3

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:18 AM

To GTF: You give credit to Fizdale for his development of Harrison despite Douglas being signed to bench Harrison. Where are Baldwin and Martin right now? In the D-League you bad-mouthed last season and being a waste of time because rookies could only learn by playing in real NBA games not the D-League. You maintain your insistence that Joerger was against rookies but he played what poor examples of rookies Wallace gave him every year including last season when Wallace gave him those pathetic examples. 

 

The Grizzlies Front Office drafted Jordan Adams who was described as one of the least athletic players in his draft. They traded away future assets for Andrew Harrison, Dejonta Davis, Rade Zagorac and Jarnell Stokes. Only Davis is in the NBA today and he's taking a leave of absence for "personal reasons." They traded away this year's 1st round pick, Mo Speights, Wayne Ellington and reach in Josh Selby for Jon Leuer. The coach isn't responsible for any of these deals. They all are the responsibility of the Front Office. 

 

I'm not saying anything against any coach. They played the hand they've been dealt. I am placing blame for these moves on the Front Office who have made the mistakes. Tony Wroten, Jordan Adams, Jarnell Stokes, Andrew Harrison, Jarell Martin, etc. etc. etc.

 

There is only one thing in common with all of the young players Memphis has brought in and they aren't the coaches. Coaches have influence but GM's make the final decisions. The buck stops here as a former Democratic President once said. 



#37 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:24 AM

Another added caveat is that if Parsons didn't suck so bad and could play.   We probably wouldn't have to cut Williams to pickup a backup PG too.   A productive Parson's makes guys like Vince and Tony more expendable and could help with PG' duties for a second unit. 

 

Wallace scared to death to trade one year rentals Vince and Tony simply because Parsons hasn't shown anything.   

Right now who could seriously visualize a rotation of Parsons, Ennis, Daniels, and Williams in the playoffs?

 

Not to mention Wallace is too afraid to move Tony for anything short of a superstar.    Imagine how bad the casual fanbase would revolt if Tony got traded to keep undrafted Williams on roster and add some journeyman PG.  



#38 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:36 AM

To GTF: You give credit to Fizdale for his development of Harrison despite Douglas being signed to bench Harrison. Where are Baldwin and Martin right now? In the D-League you bad-mouthed last season and being a waste of time because rookies could only learn by playing in real NBA games not the D-League. You maintain your insistence that Joerger was against rookies but he played what poor examples of rookies Wallace gave him every year including last season when Wallace gave him those pathetic examples. 

 

The Grizzlies Front Office drafted Jordan Adams who was described as one of the least athletic players in his draft. They traded away future assets for Andrew Harrison, Dejonta Davis, Rade Zagorac and Jarnell Stokes. Only Davis is in the NBA today and he's taking a leave of absence for "personal reasons." They traded away this year's 1st round pick, Mo Speights, Wayne Ellington and reach in Josh Selby for Jon Leuer. The coach isn't responsible for any of these deals. They all are the responsibility of the Front Office. 

 

I'm not saying anything against any coach. They played the hand they've been dealt. I am placing blame for these moves on the Front Office who have made the mistakes. Tony Wroten, Jordan Adams, Jarnell Stokes, Andrew Harrison, Jarell Martin, etc. etc. etc.

 

There is only one thing in common with all of the young players Memphis has brought in and they aren't the coaches. Coaches have influence but GM's make the final decisions. The buck stops here as a former Democratic President once said. 

Difference is I actually know/knew people that were on the Hollins and Joerger staffs and they literally said.   Those dudes, Did not like playing young(unproven) guys".   To be fair Hollins wasn't even as bad as Joerger is when it comes to development. 

 

I also have critical thinking and observational skills so using the evidence of how they managed their rosters.  I came to that conclusion even with insider knowledge. 

 

I give credit to Fizdale because he actually showed a strategy and interest in development across the board.   Once again its not as simple as saying X player has met the minimum development threshold because they played X number of minutes.  You have to evaluate the overall situation and how the coach handles young guys.   Fiz has shown patience and fairness in majority of the situations.  That's all a fan can ask for. 

 

Joerger is showing in Sacremento that he still doesn't like to play young guys.  



#39 tangogriz

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:41 AM

Thanks Troy, love the quickness and hustle. I hope to see you again in Grizzly blue soon.

 

Wallace brought in Daniels in the summer. Zagorac next year is another wing, that we hope will be better than a first rounder. The glut is at the wings. We need extra protection at the point. For whatever reason the young guys got a shot early. Lets get some newly-healthy old fogies up to speed here in the middle of the season and see what we've got.



#40 fanboyslim

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:49 AM

I don't think this will be the last time we hear about Troy Williams. We'll have a few roster spots to round out next year.

 

The thing most people aren't taking into account is that Troy Williams' salary was not guaranteed beyond this season (and had the smallest guaranteed salary this season). When in doubt the non-guaranteed player goes out first, especially for a team close to the tax line like we are.