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#181 tmoneyinmphs

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Posted Yesterday, 02:15 PM

Imo, it's just best to sit chandler parsons and play guys like daniels and ennis.  I don't even think chandler parsons wants to play in memphis anymore.  He doesn't even seem to care or have pride within himself. 

 

Whoever thought giving him this big contract was a good idea needs to retire or go elsewhere.



#182 GF#1

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Posted Yesterday, 02:18 PM

Memfizz,

TA knows what to do out there, especially on D. His execution isn't always efficient, but he is experienced and knows what he's doing . Hence his high  BBall IQ.

 

I agree that he is a very intelligent defensive player and has veteran savvy, but recently he has been more prone to gamble, forgetting or rather neglecting to use his high BBIQ to play disciplined defense on his man. And offensively, I think it would be tough to argue that he has a high basketball IQ. He's opportunistic in cutting to the basket to receive an entry pass for a layup, but on the occasions when he goes MJ Allen and tries dribbling between his leg 14 times usually results in either a turnover or an errant shot attempt.

 

The qualities of his game that once made him a good role player and elite defender have escaped him, and while I do think that we should move on, I do shudder to think what we would do without him when trying to slow down all of the challenges that we will inevitably face in Steph/Klay/KD.

 

I'm hoping we see flashes of the old TA in this year's playoffs, but right now he's a shell of his former self.
 



#183 BHZMAFIA

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Posted Yesterday, 02:33 PM

Nah. He's more overrated than Parsons. :P ;)

 

Just messing, BHZ.
 

 

LOL

 

Not that I don't think Harrison can  become a solid player. I just think he was able to show ENOUGH this year to know he's just not ready right now. I think the staff and management can clearly identify what he needs to improve on this offseason and go into the summer league/training camp with an improved game. They can re-evaluate then on what he has improved on. If he doesn't look better next season compared to this one, then it may be time to move on. (same with Baldwin). 



#184 Memfizz

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Posted Yesterday, 02:34 PM

Memfizz,
TA knows what to do out there, especially on D. His execution isn't always efficient, but he is experienced and knows what he's doing . Hence his high BBall IQ.


I don't think you know what Bball IQ is. Making the right play/pass at the right time, seeing the open guy, controlling the tempo, court vision, shot selection. These are all his biggest flaws..

His grittiness or ugly/hard nosed defense is his biggest strength. But that's been lacking, so he's not bringing much of anything.

#185 New_Sacred_Cow

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Posted Yesterday, 02:43 PM

He is a great ball hawk on the defensive side but on the other side he is a mess. Especially with the last 2 games, he has tried to force feed the paint at terrible angles and has had some very lazy passes.



#186 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted Yesterday, 03:03 PM

I don't really think you can GTF lol.

 

I understand some of the logic, but the reality is that Harrison is a tad above below average as a basketball player. 

 

- 5th worst BPM on the team (only ahead of Parsons, Davis, Baldwin, Martin) - which isn't saying much

- his defense is overstated (net positive DBPM, however, he's worst than all wings not named Troy Daniels and Mike Conley right now) - of course, those two clearly surpass him on offense so he's not seeing minutes over those 2

 

- he has the 5th worst defensive rating on the team 

- the 6th worst offensive rating

- the 2nd worst FG%

- 5th worst TS%

- 4th worst PER 

 

TA definitely has flaws, but its hard to argue putting Harrison in the lineup to replace him considering we already have one wing playing ***** poor basketball right now in Parsons.

 

Sometimes I feel like our vets are coasting until the playoffs. When it all comes down to it, I'll be interested to see how the vets play come playoff time. I think that's where their value will truly be shown.

 

Yes i understand all of that and the numbers are not  pretty but the crux of my argument is not really about Harrison. 

 

It's really about finding the best complimentary player to maximize Conley. 

 

http://stats.nba.com...ET_RATING&dir=1

 

2 Man Lineup

Mike + Harrison +3.9

Mike + Tony  +1.9

Mike + Ennis  +4.3

Mike + Daniels  +9.4

 

Daniels and Ennis are great with Mike simply because there presence allows better spacing.  Harrison's numbers are already better than Tony's and keep in mind that the majority of these minutes were early on.  Since Mike has recovered he hasn't really played with Harrison much at all.  Yes Harrison is not a good shooter/scorer and struggles offensively but dude is a rookie.  That has to be counted in the equation.

 

Look at what he can bring to the table while playing alongside Mike

  • Primary ball-handling responsibility frees up Mike to play off the ball
  • defensive ability allows him to guard the bigger offensive threat in the backcourt which also frees up Mike
  • He is also underrated as a slasher and foul-drawer - his FTA% is only below Mike, Marc, and Zbo.

You said he is a below average NBA player at this point in his career and i don't disagree with you.  I just think besides Vince, Harrison is the best candidate to play the Poor Man Healthy Parsons role that will maximize Mike's effectiveness.   Instead of thinking of his ultimate role being solely as backup PG how about we try to develop him into a sorta Andre Iguodola??  Basically a secondary ball-handler/defensive specialist.   He already has the raw skills and size to do that.  

 

We have already proven we can win games with "terrible" Harrison starting at PG AND with a non-entity CP.  Wouldn't it much easier for his development playing alongside Mike.  Isn't there more hope that Harrison develops a reliable 3pt shot over Tony?  All the available spacing provided by Conley, Marc, JaM and Ennis would be much more effectively utilized by the guy with the second best slashing ability behind Conley than anyone else.  

 

I am thinking Big Picture and not just this season.  It's extremely short-sighted to "close the book" on a rookie.  Especially one that will not kill you on defense as he learns the ropes. 



#187 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted Yesterday, 03:27 PM

Chris Herrington spells out my point as well.

 

http://www.commercia...egins/98482812/

 

Douglas is a replacement-level journeyman — more Keyon Dooling than Mario Chalmers or Beno Udrih in the annals of Grizzlies in-season back-up point guard acquisitions -- and he’s shot like it, making only 37 percent from the floor and 18 percent from three in 16 appearances with the Grizzlies.

A recent team talking point about the Grizzlies record when Douglas plays (10-2 at the time, now 12-5) is more correlation than causation (same with the team’s 7-2 record with Andrew Harrison as a starter when Mike Conley missed extended time), but the team has, on average, been good with him on the floor so far. Some of that is because the team has been great so far when Douglas and Conley have been paired. The Grizzlies were also good in far more minutes with Conley and Harrison together. Giving Conley more ball-handling help and allowing him to focus more on scoring was a rationale for both the Parsons signing and, to a lesser extend, the Baldwin pick. The team has gotten next to nothing from those players this season, but this line of thinking is likely to influence the team’s roster-management strategies again next summer.

 

On that same note here is a quote from Fizdale

 

http://www.commercia...anges/98473906/

 

It’s more about fit now and who plays the best together, and what gives my best players the best chance to be great,” Fizdale said. “Right now, every game is so critical when you’re fighting for home court (in the playoffs). So those are tough decisions coaches have to make. But I’m going to continue to evaluate over the next week or so.”

 

As already shown playing Conley alongside another ball-handler(Carter, Douglas, or Harrison) is how you maximize his skills.   Just like playing Gasol alongside another strong defender(JaM or Wright) maximizes his offensive abilities as well. 



#188 BHZMAFIA

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Posted Yesterday, 03:39 PM

The only thing 2-man lineups tell me is that any wing player paired with Conley = positive results (with the exception of Parsons). I mean he literally has a net positive with Daniels, Carter, Ennis, Harrison and TA. Our entire flux of wings. 

 

I'm just looking at it from a perspective of realism. No team in the midst of battling for playoff seeding is going to insert a player who's been as bad as Harrison statistically into a starting lineup. That's why I said this will be better served going into the offseason and having him work on his game. Maybe he can become that player next year. I don't see any reasoning into making that change right now when we are looking at the 4th seed still.

 

Maybe if a scenario like last year happened and Marc went down for the season (hopefully this doesn't happen). Then you can start experimenting with different lineups to see what we have for next year because obviously we are not truly competing without Marc. 

 

The concept of having another ball-handling out there with Conley definitely makes sense. The part that doesn't make sense to me is trying to make this change during a crucial point in the season when he's statistically not a good basketball player. We are at the point now where rotations should actually start slimming down to find out what our true playoff rotation will look like. 



#189 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted Yesterday, 03:52 PM

The only thing 2-man lineups tell me is that any wing player paired with Conley = positive results (with the exception of Parsons). I mean he literally has a net positive with Daniels, Carter, Ennis, Harrison and TA. Our entire flux of wings. 

 

I'm just looking at it from a perspective of realism. No team in the midst of battling for playoff seeding is going to insert a player who's been as bad as Harrison statistically into a starting lineup. That's why I said this will be better served going into the offseason and having him work on his game. Maybe he can become that player next year. I don't see any reasoning into making that change right now when we are looking at the 4th seed still.

 

Maybe if a scenario like last year happened and Marc went down for the season (hopefully this doesn't happen). Then you can start experimenting with different lineups to see what we have for next year because obviously we are not truly competing without Marc. 

 

The concept of having another ball-handling out there with Conley definitely makes sense. The part that doesn't make sense to me is trying to make this change during a crucial point in the season when he's statistically not a good basketball player. We are at the point now where rotations should actually start slimming down to find out what our true playoff rotation will look like. 

I understand your logic but no one realistically thought Zbo would agree to come off the bench.  Mike and Marc would be dropping multiple 30+ pt games or any coach would give TA real ball-handling responsibility.  None of that was considered realistic until it actually happened.

 

I'll just quote Fiz again from same article:

 

So Fizdale often plays Conley off the ball alongside reserve guard Toney Douglas. That, and Fizdale continues to try find consistent minutes for backup sharpshooter Troy Daniels.

“That’s still the hard part with our team. Who’s going to be that (X-factor)? I’m still sifting through it all,” Fizdale said. “I’m still thinking about tinkering with some stuff. Nothing is off the table right now. I’m thinking about how can I push us to a higher level. I’m not at all happy at where we sit.

“And I’m not just going to say it’s going to get to a higher level just by letting it go. Everything is on the table right now. I’m still looking at a lot of stuff. I’m still trying to identify what pieces fit the best now that we are totally healthy. We’ll see as we move forward going down the stretch. My agenda will always stay the same. How do I put the best players and the best team on the floor that I can?”

 

The secondary ball-handler with Conley is a real desire for Fiz and technically Harrison skillset keeps him in the conversation.  I think its worth a shot.  

 

Ultimately i just want unhealthy Parsons out of the rotation and Daniels in it. 



#190 smit-tay griz

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Posted Yesterday, 04:03 PM

Fiz handled the backlash pretty well over the Zbo decision and was proven correct as you will attest to now.   If this was the TA from 3yrs ago then there would be no dispute that he is best option as a starter we have.   Unfortunately Tony has entered the realm of "he wouldn't be a starter on 29 other teams so why is he here?"  Which is sorta of the same argument that Fiz made to zbo as his rationale for bringing him off the bench.  

 

The logic behind Tony starting was always for him to help cover for Parsons' on defense.    Well if Parson's isn't starting(my proposal) then what is the point of playing a non-entity on offense?  

Maybe because on a per minute basis TA is a better scorer, rebounder, better at assists, steals, blocked shots.  Ennis merely shoots a better percentage.  I'm not against Ennis at all and would rather see him than Parsons at this point, but Ennis is not a better defender than Allen yet.  I would rather move TA to SF and start Daniels at SG.



#191 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted Yesterday, 04:31 PM

Maybe because on a per minute basis TA is a better scorer, rebounder, better at assists, steals, blocked shots.  Ennis merely shoots a better percentage.  I'm not against Ennis at all and would rather see him than Parsons at this point, but Ennis is not a better defender than Allen yet.  I would rather move TA to SF and start Daniels at SG.

but Daniels isn't a better defender than Ennis he is merely a better shooter!     See what i did there.  I am judging them based on "fit" not solely by stats. 

 

I'll repeat what Fiz said is his logic (which has been my same logic for years now) 

It’s more about fit now and who plays the best together, and what gives my best players the best chance to be great,” Fizdale said.

 

That's my point.  Tony hurts spacing and his lack of playmaking means Mike has to work harder for his points when he shares the court with him.   Its no different than separating zbo and Marc because zbo's lack of defense means marc has to work harder. 

 

Whatever we give up on defense (as the stats have shown this year -nothing) we make up for on offense. 



#192 smit-tay griz

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Posted Yesterday, 04:38 PM

LOL

 

Not that I don't think Harrison can  become a solid player. I just think he was able to show ENOUGH this year to know he's just not ready right now. I think the staff and management can clearly identify what he needs to improve on this offseason and go into the summer league/training camp with an improved game. They can re-evaluate then on what he has improved on. If he doesn't look better next season compared to this one, then it may be time to move on. (same with Baldwin). 

Glad you posted this.  I was was going to ask about player development and ask why you were so willing to ditch a rookie so quickly.

 

Yes i understand all of that and the numbers are not  pretty but the crux of my argument is not really about Harrison. 

 

It's really about finding the best complimentary player to maximize Conley. 

 

http://stats.nba.com...ET_RATING&dir=1

 

2 Man Lineup

Mike + Harrison +3.9

Mike + Tony  +1.9

Mike + Ennis  +4.3

Mike + Daniels  +9.4

 

Daniels and Ennis are great with Mike simply because there presence allows better spacing.  Harrison's numbers are already better than Tony's and keep in mind that the majority of these minutes were early on.  Since Mike has recovered he hasn't really played with Harrison much at all.  Yes Harrison is not a good shooter/scorer and struggles offensively but dude is a rookie.  That has to be counted in the equation.

 

Look at what he can bring to the table while playing alongside Mike

  • Primary ball-handling responsibility frees up Mike to play off the ball
  • defensive ability allows him to guard the bigger offensive threat in the backcourt which also frees up Mike
  • He is also underrated as a slasher and foul-drawer - his FTA% is only below Mike, Marc, and Zbo.

You said he is a below average NBA player at this point in his career and i don't disagree with you.  I just think besides Vince, Harrison is the best candidate to play the Poor Man Healthy Parsons role that will maximize Mike's effectiveness.   Instead of thinking of his ultimate role being solely as backup PG how about we try to develop him into a sorta Andre Iguodola??  Basically a secondary ball-handler/defensive specialist.   He already has the raw skills and size to do that.  

 

We have already proven we can win games with "terrible" Harrison starting at PG AND with a non-entity CP.  Wouldn't it much easier for his development playing alongside Mike.  Isn't there more hope that Harrison develops a reliable 3pt shot over Tony?  All the available spacing provided by Conley, Marc, JaM and Ennis would be much more effectively utilized by the guy with the second best slashing ability behind Conley than anyone else.  

 

I am thinking Big Picture and not just this season.  It's extremely short-sighted to "close the book" on a rookie.  Especially one that will not kill you on defense as he learns the ropes. 

I agree with BHZ.  We do not need to put Harrison into the starting lineup.  I would not be opposed to using Harrison off the bench over Douglas for those minutes when you want to utilize Mike as a SG.  Harrison, at 6'6", offers more defensive size to guard opposing SGs.  We are also having a difficult time with entry passes into the post which I think gets worse with two small guards on the floor together.  I would say that we should start Mike, TD, TA, JG, and Marc.  When you want to use Mike as the 2 pair him with Harrison.  When Mike sits, pull AH too, and bring Douglas.



#193 smit-tay griz

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Posted Yesterday, 04:44 PM

but Daniels isn't a better defender than Ennis he is merely a better shooter!     See what i did there.  I am judging them based on "fit" not solely by stats. 

 

I'll repeat what Fiz said is his logic (which has been my same logic for years now) 

It’s more about fit now and who plays the best together, and what gives my best players the best chance to be great,” Fizdale said.

 

That's my point.  Tony hurts spacing and his lack of playmaking means Mike has to work harder for his points when he shares the court with him.   Its no different than separating zbo and Marc because zbo's lack of defense means marc has to work harder. 

 

Whatever we give up on defense (as the stats have shown this year -nothing) we make up for on offense. 

If you start Mike with TD, TA, Jam, and Marc four of your starting five are good 3-point threats.  TA is a good cutter and fights hard on the boards.  When you bring Zbo bring VC to replace TA.  You would still have four 3-point threats, plus a handful in the post.



#194 fanboyslim

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Posted Yesterday, 05:24 PM

I've been patient with Parsons, but it's starting to run really thin.

 

If we're still seeing crap like this in mid-late March, something needs to be done. Whether it's shutting him down or moving him to the bench. He's an absolute liability to this team right now.

If the coaching staff is consistent, he should get his minutes no matter what until a certain point in the regular season (and mid-March would be a good deadline) where he would either be contributing significantly or be shut down for the season.

 

My concern is double though:

- He's gone from getting 25 minutes to 20 in the past three games. That's not what you want to see for a player that's trying to get into competitive shape.

- He's shying from shooting. He should be taking shots even if he misses, much like TD did early in the season.

 

So, I'm worried but I'll still wait a few more weeks before declaring his season a loss.



#195 smit-tay griz

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Posted Yesterday, 05:41 PM

If the coaching staff is consistent, he should get his minutes no matter what until a certain point in the regular season (and mid-March would be a good deadline) where he would either be contributing significantly or be shut down for the season.

 

My concern is double though:

- He's gone from getting 25 minutes to 20 in the past three games. That's not what you want to see for a player that's trying to get into competitive shape.

- He's shying from shooting. He should be taking shots even if he misses, much like TD did early in the season.

 

So, I'm worried but I'll still wait a few more weeks before declaring his season a loss.

Good point here, slim.  He pulls the pump fake way too much.  He needs to shoot if he's going to get his confidence back.



#196 BigHunkALove

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Posted Yesterday, 06:17 PM

If you start Mike with TD, TA, Jam, and Marc four of your starting five are good 3-point threats. TA is a good cutter and fights hard on the boards. When you bring Zbo bring VC to replace TA. You would still have four 3-point threats, plus a handful in the post.

I could go with this or same with Ennis at SF.

Fiz is wrong about playing Mike @ 2 because we dont have the talent level at backup PG.

Funny that Dooling is mentioned in that article, i was just thinking about that scenario after the Pacers game. Douglas is at scrub level on par with Dooling with Harrison only marginally better. To be at contender status none of them make the grade, but at least Harrison has size and possibly may develop into something serviceable.

Until then, or a trade, leave Mike @ 1, and use a combo of Daniels, Ennis, Carter, Allen, Parsons to cover the 2 & 3 for both units

#197 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted Yesterday, 07:08 PM

I could go with this or same with Ennis at SF.

Fiz is wrong about playing Mike @ 2 because we dont have the talent level at backup PG.

Funny that Dooling is mentioned in that article, i was just thinking about that scenario after the Pacers game. Douglas is at scrub level on par with Dooling with Harrison only marginally better. To be at contender status none of them make the grade, but at least Harrison has size and possibly may develop into something serviceable.

Until then, or a trade, leave Mike @ 1, and use a combo of Daniels, Ennis, Carter, Allen, Parsons to cover the 2 & 3 for both units

Fiz is not wrong about playing mike at the 2. Doing that has won us games and is the main reason he has had multiple 30+ outings. until we sign a dynamic wing he is the best option on the perimeter.

With Mike playing off ball all you need at PG is just a guy that can guard Sgs credibly and dribble and pass. PG doesn't have to be elite at anything which is why the numbers are a plus no matter if he is paired with Harrison or Douglas.

No matter how big of a scrub Douglas is - I still think he will better than Harrison in playoffs.

#198 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted Yesterday, 07:13 PM

Glad you posted this. I was was going to ask about player development and ask why you were so willing to ditch a rookie so quickly.

I agree with BHZ. We do not need to put Harrison into the starting lineup. I would not be opposed to using Harrison off the bench over Douglas for those minutes when you want to utilize Mike as a SG. Harrison, at 6'6", offers more defensive size to guard opposing SGs. We are also having a difficult time with entry passes into the post which I think gets worse with two small guards on the floor together. I would say that we should start Mike, TD, TA, JG, and Marc. When you want to use Mike as the 2 pair him with Harrison. When Mike sits, pull AH too, and bring Douglas.

Hey I'm cool with trying that as well. ultimately i think longterm it makes more sense to try to integrate and develop Harrison over Douglas.

#199 BigHunkALove

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Posted Yesterday, 08:33 PM

Fiz is not wrong about playing mike at the 2. Doing that has won us games and is the main reason he has had multiple 30+ outings. until we sign a dynamic wing he is the best option on the perimeter.

With Mike playing off ball all you need at PG is just a guy that can guard Sgs credibly and dribble and pass. PG doesn't have to be elite at anything which is why the numbers are a plus no matter if he is paired with Harrison or Douglas.

No matter how big of a scrub Douglas is - I still think he will better than Harrison in playoffs.

I'd like to see stats of this, specifically points scored and FG% comparing @ 1 and @ 2 and also a breakdown in those 30+ games before i become a believer. My eyes are telling me in those games Mike did the damage while @ 1....

#200 GrizzTigerFan

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Posted Yesterday, 08:44 PM

I'd like to see stats of this, specifically points scored and FG% comparing @ 1 and @ 2 and also a breakdown in those 30+ games before i become a believer. My eyes are telling me in those games Mike did the damage while @ 1....

I'll have to find the link from Peter Edmiston - he uses synergy stats to show that Conley is top 10 catch and shoot player and stand still jumper shooter in the league.