Jump to content


Photo

Trading Rudy Gay


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#21 chipc3

chipc3

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,837 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis
  • Interests:GRIZZLIES, golf, soccer, women

Posted 18 December 2008 - 01:17 PM

QUOTE
So- if none of those things fall our way.. what is left? Taking a chance and making a risky trade.

Well we could try and develop our young players into a solid core that plays well together because they know how each other play and add around that core with draft picks and FA signings. Memphis has started lineups where not one player is over 23 yrs old all season. These players are still figuring out how to play together and what they need to do to play in this league. There is no reason to give up on any of them at this time. Great teams don't make major roster moves every year to their roster. They develop players and make small incremental moves instead.

I think the Grizzlies are planning on developing their youth and that means allowing them to struggle for a while together to form a chemistry. Players will get moved from time to time and the possibility of a Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett double trade is always possible but I would be more than shocked if such a thing occured. As Mr. Heisley told me once, a player making $9 million a year would need to sell an additional 5000 tickets to justify that salary. Does that sound like the kind of attitude that would pick up 2 or 3 max deals?

#22 The Truth is OUT

The Truth is OUT

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,030 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati ne Memphis

Posted 18 December 2008 - 01:20 PM

I think that an underlying reason that people are thinking we have to trade Gay to improve is because we had to trade Shane to improve, then Pau to improve, then Miller to improve. In actuality what we were doing was shattering the 0 for 12 playoff core.

We're building a new team now, and Rudy Gay is part of that new team. Unless you're getting back a top 20 player or the #1 pick in a draft with a can't miss all-star or better in return, it's asinine to think that trading Rudy Gay is a surefire bet to improve your team...in fact, your odds of making the team worse are far greater.

Plus, if you trade him now, you're trading his rookie contract. Meaning to get the player you want, you have to give up even more pieces, making your rotation thinner and now you've got less money to spend to augment it.

Not to mention we have 3 first round picks in the next two years and more than enough cap space to lure one all-star caliber player. So trading our 1st or 2nd best player is completely unneeded.

I think all this "we have to trade 'x' player" talk is also a lack of confidence that we will improve the team by other means.

Over time, it is making more sense to people around the league why we traded Pau for what we did. Trading Rudy right now would instantly go down as one of the five worst trades of all time (my caveats excepted), and it is an opinion that would not improve with the years.

#23 PassTheMayo

PassTheMayo

    Starter

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 440 posts
  • Location:Huntsville, Alabama

Posted 18 December 2008 - 02:42 PM

I think we need a 3pt shooter more than a low post player, right now. I'm not saying for every team this is the case but we have 4 post starters (Gasol, Millic, Arthur, and Warrick) and yet no one to come off the bench and hit a 3 consistently. Yes Ross has been playing well but he can't keep it up. Gasol is the starting C and we have 3 other players competing for the PF position. This is just as bad as having 4 1st round draft picks at the G positions. I really like Arthur and think we should keep him, Gasol isn't going anywhere, I really like Hak because he's the most athletic and brings some scoring off the bench, which leaves Millic and I don't see him being a player we need.

#24 Kevin B Moses

Kevin B Moses

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,330 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2008 - 02:48 PM

I think that Marc Gasol is a key to our future. Barring a major lottery coo we need gasol to take it to the next level. If he does that, we don't really need to trade anybody to get what we need. If he doesn't we need a low post threat.

#25 The Truth is OUT

The Truth is OUT

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,030 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati ne Memphis

Posted 18 December 2008 - 03:20 PM

QUOTE (Kevin B Moses @ Dec 18 2008, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that Marc Gasol is a key to our future. Barring a major lottery coo we need gasol to take it to the next level. If he does that, we don't really need to trade anybody to get what we need. If he doesn't we need a low post threat.


When we get a legit 4 in here, Gasol is going to make a great block partner for them.

I like Gasol's game, and I'm glad we got him for what we did, but in 3 years he's going to be much more expensive. I'm not ready to call him a key to our future, because you can't have 5 great players starting for you. Some are going to have to be secondary to the main threats. Gasol can be one of those "supporting starters", especially if we nail down a top flight PF. And as such, he may wind up giving way at some point for another player at that position.

#26 PragmaticIdealist

PragmaticIdealist

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,260 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2008 - 03:32 PM

QUOTE (chipc3 @ Dec 18 2008, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well we could try and develop our young players into a solid core that plays well together because they know how each other play and add around that core with draft picks and FA signings. Memphis has started lineups where not one player is over 23 yrs old all season. These players are still figuring out how to play together and what they need to do to play in this league. There is no reason to give up on any of them at this time. Great teams don't make major roster moves every year to their roster. They develop players and make small incremental moves instead.

I think the Grizzlies are planning on developing their youth and that means allowing them to struggle for a while together to form a chemistry. Players will get moved from time to time and the possibility of a Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett double trade is always possible but I would be more than shocked if such a thing occured. As Mr. Heisley told me once, a player making $9 million a year would need to sell an additional 5000 tickets to justify that salary. Does that sound like the kind of attitude that would pick up 2 or 3 max deals?


I am not screaming to trade Rudy right now, which seems to be what you are interpreting. I am seeing it as a possibility in the near future.

There are a lot of ifs here. This is simply speculation, but lets look at the possibilities.

These are the possibilities as I see them.

1) The team we have right now could continue to develop to the extent that all basic needs are covered. Gasol, Milicic or Arthur could develop into that low post threat. However, looking at what I see as probable development. I see either or both Gasol and Milicic being solid 5's on a contender, playing steady offense and good defense. But Milicic is not showing the signs of developing into an offense threat to be a real post threat and Gasol's slower foot speed and lack of vertical explosion will probably keep him from attaining elite status. I still think both could be strong contributors going forward, but it doesn't look like either is likely to develop into a true post threat. Personally I see Arthur as future solid contributor off the bench. I could be wrong, but i dont see elite desire or natural ability in him.

2) We either win the draft lottery (either through a surprising later lottery find or getting a high pick) or we win the FA lottery and are able to get that significant post threat. Both of these options are largely luck. I hope we do both and are a contender for years. However, if I was playing odds I would say they are long. Even if we get a high pick there is not guarantee the guy we get will be that impact player so it takes both the luck in getting the pick, the right guy being there, and the luck/skill in drafting the right guy. (combination of luck and skill) In FA we have the same problem. Just like the draft lottery we are in the running for a good player. It still takes luck in the right player getting loose, us being able to attract him, and the guy not turning out to be dampier. Boozer might get free from utah, we might be able to attract him, but even if both of those things happen what are the odds he injury free, motivated and productive for the years we need. Dont get me wrong that talent eval part is going to be needed at any stage, but not the luck/ opportunity involved will vary in terms of who is available and when. The point is that by taking into account the odds of the right player falling with the odds of good talent eval it lowers the chance of successful completion.

3) None of the above happens and we have to make our own luck through solid drafting (though conservative), risky trades, solid talent evaluation. We take calculated risks to get the big three in the right positions and then use draft and fa to fill in solid and possibly star role players.

Ideally we get to keep all the young talent on our roster. They all reach their max potential and we get two elite players - one from a lottery pick and another from FA. We would have a dream team for years..... but if all luck fails and we have to rely on the office's ability to make their own luck then what are the reasonable options that would most likely garner success?

#27 jaybyrd

jaybyrd

    Rookie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 136 posts

Posted 18 December 2008 - 04:29 PM

Trade one of the Biggest up and coming stars in the league? Before he's even scratched his peak? You people are ridiculous, and comparing Rudy to Pau on any level is a complete disgrace. Obviously anyone who wants to trade Rudy at this point in our rebuilding phase needs to be reported to authorities because that person is doing very very hard drugs! Matter of fact, i believe this must be a fan of another team who wishes they had Rudy because this whole subject matter is Laughable!

#28 Sweet Chin Music

Sweet Chin Music

    Starter

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 514 posts

Posted 18 December 2008 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE (GMCman8390 @ Dec 18 2008, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No way on earth we trade Rudy for anything less than Aldrich AND LaFrentz.......just my take

Rudy >>>> Aldridge and LaFrentz

#29 CMAC

CMAC

    Starter

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 531 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis, TN

Posted 18 December 2008 - 04:52 PM

Why is this post even made?

#30 CMAC

CMAC

    Starter

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 531 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis, TN

Posted 18 December 2008 - 04:54 PM

QUOTE (chipc3 @ Dec 18 2008, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well we could try and develop our young players into a solid core that plays well together because they know how each other play and add around that core with draft picks and FA signings. Memphis has started lineups where not one player is over 23 yrs old all season. These players are still figuring out how to play together and what they need to do to play in this league. There is no reason to give up on any of them at this time. Great teams don't make major roster moves every year to their roster. They develop players and make small incremental moves instead.

I think the Grizzlies are planning on developing their youth and that means allowing them to struggle for a while together to form a chemistry. Players will get moved from time to time and the possibility of a Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett double trade is always possible but I would be more than shocked if such a thing occured. As Mr. Heisley told me once, a player making $9 million a year would need to sell an additional 5000 tickets to justify that salary. Does that sound like the kind of attitude that would pick up 2 or 3 max deals?



Thank You Chip for that response because some people seem to think trading away people is the next best thing. Those fantasy sports players never give up do they. blink.gif

#31 Habanero

Habanero

    This forked tongue is for you.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,214 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis
  • Interests:Xbox, inhaling burnt rubber and watching football.

Posted 18 December 2008 - 07:24 PM

QUOTE (CMAC @ Dec 18 2008, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why is this post even made?



The OP was bored out of his mind and he just wanted to throw some 'ish on the wall and see if it stuck.

I'm sure once rudy was gone in his scenario, he would trade Mayo as soon as his per game average dropped by .5 points in a two week span. Believe it or not, you can get a solid player outside of the top 3 draft picks.

#32 MemphisX

MemphisX

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,651 posts
  • Location:M.E.M.P.H.I.S.

Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:02 PM

QUOTE (CMAC @ Dec 18 2008, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thank You Chip for that response because some people seem to think trading away people is the next best thing. Those fantasy sports players never give up do they. blink.gif


Or some people see that there is more than one way to skin a cat. As a fan, my goal is not to see Mayo ad Gay develop into something special. My goal is for the Grizzlies to contend and I could care less who is wearing the Beale Street Blue when it happens. The reality of the NBA is that I will be a fan of the Grizzlies when Mayo and Gay have moved on so I am not wedded to either of them being the answer.

So, regarding trading Gay....

There are very few players that would be worth the risk and even fewer of them that would be available to acquire. I would trade him for Amare (extended), probably Beasley, Carmelo, and Durant. Other than that, every other player I would take for him is not geting moved under any circumstances and other than Amare, I doubt the ones I listed would get traded.




#33 BealeSt.BlueBleeder

BealeSt.BlueBleeder

    Starter

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 367 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis 10

Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE (CMAC @ Dec 18 2008, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why is this post even made?

My thoughts exactly!

#34 BealeSt.BlueBleeder

BealeSt.BlueBleeder

    Starter

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 367 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis 10

Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:06 PM

QUOTE (MemphisX @ Dec 18 2008, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Or some people see that there is more than one way to skin a cat. As a fan, my goal is not to see Mayo ad Gay develop into something special. My goal is for the Grizzlies to contend and I could care less who is wearing the Beale Street Blue when it happens. The reality of the NBA is that I will be a fan of the Grizzlies when Mayo and Gay have moved on so I am not wedded to either of them being the answer.

So, regarding trading Gay....

There are very few players that would be worth the risk and even fewer of them that would be available to acquire. I would trade him for Amare (extended), probably Beasley, Carmelo, and Durant. Other than that, every other player I would take for him is not geting moved under any circumstances and other than Amare, I doubt the ones I listed would get traded.

Rudy for kevin durant?!?!?!?!?! Kevin durant is a good ball player,don't get me wrong,but NO WAY IN HEEZY do I give up rudy gay for him

#35 PragmaticIdealist

PragmaticIdealist

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,260 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:14 PM






Some of you should really try it. No where in any part of my post is saying trade Rudy right now.......

I am really about done with the topic, but let me say this. Think about the nets with Kid, Carter, & Jefferson in 2007. They finished 41 - 41 with a playoff berth, but were out in the first round. They had service role players at pf and C. Think Mayo, Gay, and _______. We NEED a post threat. It may take a trade to get one.

ok done now


have a nice day

#36 PragmaticIdealist

PragmaticIdealist

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,260 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:20 PM

QUOTE (MemphisX @ Dec 18 2008, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Or some people see that there is more than one way to skin a cat. As a fan, my goal is not to see Mayo ad Gay develop into something special. My goal is for the Grizzlies to contend and I could care less who is wearing the Beale Street Blue when it happens. The reality of the NBA is that I will be a fan of the Grizzlies when Mayo and Gay have moved on so I am not wedded to either of them being the answer.

So, regarding trading Gay....

There are very few players that would be worth the risk and even fewer of them that would be available to acquire. I would trade him for Amare (extended), probably Beasley, Carmelo, and Durant. Other than that, every other player I would take for him is not geting moved under any circumstances and other than Amare, I doubt the ones I listed would get traded.





#37 BnaBreaker

BnaBreaker

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,881 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:26 PM

A month after we traded Rudy we'd have people complaining about how we need an offensive minded small forward.

#38 Habanero

Habanero

    This forked tongue is for you.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,214 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis
  • Interests:Xbox, inhaling burnt rubber and watching football.

Posted 19 December 2008 - 07:21 PM

QUOTE (BnaBreaker @ Dec 18 2008, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A month after we traded Rudy we'd have people complaining about how we need an offensive minded small forward.



We've traded a Gasol before. laugh.gif

#39 Kevin B Moses

Kevin B Moses

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,330 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2008 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE (The Juice Factor @ Dec 18 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When we get a legit 4 in here, Gasol is going to make a great block partner for them.

I like Gasol's game, and I'm glad we got him for what we did, but in 3 years he's going to be much more expensive. I'm not ready to call him a key to our future, because you can't have 5 great players starting for you. Some are going to have to be secondary to the main threats. Gasol can be one of those "supporting starters", especially if we nail down a top flight PF. And as such, he may wind up giving way at some point for another player at that position.


Let me say this, I prefer Marc Gasol to a highly skilled but ultimately soft 4. I.E Pau, Beasley, Aldridge, et al. And I believe that Gasol can become an unstoppable force on the offensive end. Gasol has also shown me that he is a bigtime player when it counts most at the end of games, he has made GREAT plays to help us win games. And at 7 foot, the guy is everything you could ask for in a player.

From what I hear you saying, you believe the grizzlies would be better off finding a better main threat. Now I am probably reading more into your post than you are actually saying, but I can't help but wonder if miami offered beasley or portland offered aldridge that you'd ship Marc out so fast his head would spin.

If that is the case, then you and I see things vastly different. Trading Marc Gasol for Beasley or Aldridge you might as well trade him for Pau too and lets go back to being the powder puff grizzlies, all offense and can't stop nobody. In my opinion, Marc Gasol is as untouchable as OJ Mayo and I wouldn't even trade the guy for Blake Griffin.

One thing I know is that there is a vast difference among say, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett vs most of the other great young PFs. Most of the young Pfs in the league people think are great are scoring forwards and couldn't hold a candle to Duncan and KG total game, Marc Gasol is on the opposite end, he is a great physical defensive big and thus a RARE player. There is only 1 young pf off the top of my head that plays like Gasol and that is horford. But while horford is great he has limitaions in size.

If Gasol develops a go to move, he will be unstoppable and thus our 3rd superstar. Whereas, Beasley and Aldridge are never going to develop toughness and any of the great pfs are going to bomb on them every night. How many times this year has Marc taken a supposed superstar out of the game, more times than I can remember.

#40 MemphisX

MemphisX

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,651 posts
  • Location:M.E.M.P.H.I.S.

Posted 20 December 2008 - 09:56 AM

KBM, the problem is that for Gasol to be a starter on a high level team one of two things have to happen: his physical condition must get better to increase his lateral quicness, athleticism and stamina or our PF has to be one of the tops at that position athletically.

This is why I worry about how even a Gasol/Boozer frontcourt would do defensively. Remember the object is not to win a bunch of regular season games but to compete in the playoffs. This is part of the reason why Utah is so horrible defensively. This is why I see Gasol more as a backup center on a high level team but a capable starter on a very good team if the PF is dynamic enough (think Perkins in Boston).

I want to see how he looks after a full NBA offseason of workouts.