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Trading Rudy Gay


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#1 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 09:44 AM

The team is coming together, but we are obviously missing that low post scoring threat. Its actually kinda funny. After trading Pau and getting both low post rebounding and defense and strong perimeter play we need a pau type player. (preferable more or a boozer type, but the irony is still there)

But now that the team is starting to Gel we are going to be winning games and getting a lower lottery pick. Meaning it is going to get more difficult to get that true post threat. That means we will have to get it either in trade or FA. Fa is a possibility and would be the simplest with us keeping our core together, but is pretty much out of our hands. The right player has to fall in our lap. That leaves trade. We would love to trade an under performing player for a superstar post threat but the reality is that is unlikely. More likely is a trade of a major piece of ours for a developing star of some one else.

Something like Rudy for Blake Griffin. I don't mean that trade. This is not a trade talk type discussion, but more of a team prediction/ future type discussion. Think West trading a Divac in his prime for a rookie kobe bryant. That was a ballsy trade at the time. Kobe wasn't even a number 1 pick.

Sure we would like to trade Conley for Boozer or Darko for Bynum, but that's just fans dreaming. I think we need to prepare ourselves for the team to give up more than we would like for a risky trade that may have all of us cringing. Mayo or Gay? and for whom?

Thoughts?

#2 pardon_my_interruption

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 09:57 AM

QUOTE (PragmaticIdealist @ Dec 18 2008, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The team is coming together, but we are obviously missing that low post scoring threat. Its actually kinda funny. After trading Pau and getting both low post rebounding and defense and strong perimeter play we need a pau type player. (preferable more or a boozer type, but the irony is still there)

But now that the team is starting to Gel we are going to be winning games and getting a lower lottery pick. Meaning it is going to get more difficult to get that true post threat. That means we will have to get it either in trade or FA. Fa is a possibility and would be the simplest with us keeping our core together, but is pretty much out of our hands. The right player has to fall in our lap. That leaves trade. We would love to trade an under performing player for a superstar post threat but the reality is that is unlikely. More likely is a trade of a major piece of ours for a developing star of some one else.

Something like Rudy for Blake Griffin. I don't mean that trade. This is not a trade talk type discussion, but more of a team prediction/ future type discussion. Think West trading a Divac in his prime for a rookie kobe bryant. That was a ballsy trade at the time. Kobe wasn't even a number 1 pick.

Sure we would like to trade Conley for Boozer or Darko for Bynum, but that's just fans dreaming. I think we need to prepare ourselves for the team to give up more than we would like for a risky trade that may have all of us cringing. Mayo or Gay? and for whom?

Thoughts?

If you want a low post presence, you could trade for a Jermaine O'Neal without giving up Rudy Gay.

That's why I think it would be silly to buy Antoine Walker out before January/February.



#3 GrizzledGrizzFan

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 09:58 AM

Portland fans seem to think they can get Rudy for Outlaw and scraps. Here's the current source they're citing

http://www.clubblaze...lues-t1419.html

Personally I just don't see trading Rudy, unless it was for an established big - which isn't going to happen.












Oh, and doesn't this conversation belong on the "Trade Talk" forum...

#4 LOULOU

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 09:59 AM

Wow that's a good thing to think about! I think we should go the FA route before we think about trading Rudy! Rudy is not going anywhere anytime soon unless it a flat out superstar we're getting back. I don't see how trading a young star for a high pick would help us ! Ima let CW do his thing because it's seems to be paying off! but I do like the combo of Mayo and Gay a lot and I would hate to see that Broken up over a high draft pick! look at Oden! I know down the line he might be good but now he's trash and I would hate for us to be in that scenario again.

#5 Uncle Sweetness

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:03 AM

QUOTE (PragmaticIdealist @ Dec 18 2008, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mayo or Gay? and for whom?

Thoughts?


My thoughts are that Gay and Mayo are BOTH crucial parts of the puzzle. YES we NEED a post threat. But if you trade Gay or Mayo, then you are just opening up another hole that will have to be addressed. That's why I believe we need one more year in the lottery. Or to pull off some massive FA signing, but even with that, we could still use one more solid pick.

Fact is, this team is more than just one piece away. We are one MAJOR piece away with another role player or two needed. But if you trade away one of our 1 2 punch, then you are opening up another hole. Trading either one of those two is a step in the wrong direction, if you view it as one in the right direction, then you have to admit, it is a major step backward at the time.

#6 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:04 AM

QUOTE (GrizzledGrizzFan @ Dec 18 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Portland fans seem to think they can get Rudy for Outlaw and scraps. Here's the current source they're citing

http://www.clubblaze...lues-t1419.html





Oh, and doesn't this conversation belong on the "Trade Talk" forum...


It might. But my intent was not to talk about different trade scenarios but the team's future options, possibilities and probabilities. But if someone wants to move it I wouldn't object.


#7 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE (Uncle Sweetness @ Dec 18 2008, 10:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My thoughts are that Gay and Mayo are BOTH crucial parts of the puzzle. YES we NEED a post threat. But if you trade Gay or Mayo, then you are just opening up another hole that will have to be addressed. That's why I believe we need one more year in the lottery. Or to pull off some massive FA signing, but even with that, we could still use one more solid pick.

Fact is, this team is more than just one piece away. We are one MAJOR piece away with another role player or two needed. But if you trade away one of our 1 2 punch, then you are opening up another hole. Trading either one of those two is a step in the wrong direction, if you view it as one in the right direction, then you have to admit, it is a major step backward at the time.



Except replacing Rudy with a strong perimeter player is possibly easier in both FA and the draft than attaining a true post threat.

#8 Uncle Sweetness

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:12 AM

QUOTE (PragmaticIdealist @ Dec 18 2008, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Except replacing Rudy with a strong perimeter player is possibly easier in both FA and the draft than attaining a true post threat.


Yeah, but it's not an immediate given. It might be necessary, but it's yet another major step back just to make some progress.

#9 chipc3

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:13 AM

QUOTE
But now that the team is starting to Gel we are going to be winning games and getting a lower lottery pick.

I don't think that relationship is as strong as you imply. Chicago didn't lose as many games as Memphis did but somehow picked higher than the Grizzlies last season. Portland and Seattle didn't lose as many games as the Grizzlies did two years ago and still picked higher in the draft.

The lottery by definition makes the regular season records immaterial to the draft outcome. So losing won't give us any better an opportunity to draft a low post scorer than winning. The Grizzlies need to win the lottery regardless of their regular season record to land a legitimate low post scorer. Unless they win so many games they play themselves out of the lottery of course.
QUOTE
That means we will have to get it either in trade or FA. Fa is a possibility and would be the simplest with us keeping our core together, but is pretty much out of our hands. The right player has to fall in our lap


Not true. With the cap space Memphis has available and the strong core of young players on the team it is completely in the hands of the Grizzlies to land a top level free agent either this year or next year. They control the purse strings and if the team is winning enough games to look like an up and coming team then free agents will be attracted to the combination of an exciting team with a lot of free cash.
QUOTE
That leaves trade. We would love to trade an under performing player for a superstar post threat but the reality is that is unlikely. More likely is a trade of a major piece of ours for a developing star of some one else.


Wrong again. The Grizzlies are highly unlikely to trade a major developing star for a player that won't be at the top of his game when the young players are reaching their primes. That is the message the Grizzlies brass has repeatedly told people since the draft this summer. Memphis is looking down the road and won't be attempting to acquire a player that won't be in his prime in 3-5 years. So the only players Memphis is looking to acquire right now are the young up and coming types and not an established player.

#10 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:28 AM

QUOTE (chipc3 @ Dec 18 2008, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think that relationship is as strong as you imply. Chicago didn't lose as many games as Memphis did but somehow picked higher than the Grizzlies last season. Portland and Seattle didn't lose as many games as the Grizzlies did two years ago and still picked higher in the draft.

The lottery by definition makes the regular season records immaterial to the draft outcome. So losing won't give us any better an opportunity to draft a low post scorer than winning. The Grizzlies need to win the lottery regardless of their regular season record to land a legitimate low post scorer. Unless they win so many games they play themselves out of the lottery of course.


Not true. With the cap space Memphis has available and the strong core of young players on the team it is completely in the hands of the Grizzlies to land a top level free agent either this year or next year. They control the purse strings and if the team is winning enough games to look like an up and coming team then free agents will be attracted to the combination of an exciting team with a lot of free cash.


Wrong again. The Grizzlies are highly unlikely to trade a major developing star for a player that won't be at the top of his game when the young players are reaching their primes. That is the message the Grizzlies brass has repeatedly told people since the draft this summer. Memphis is looking down the road and won't be attempting to acquire a player that won't be in his prime in 3-5 years. So the only players Memphis is looking to acquire right now are the young up and coming types and not an established player.



Chip,

You and I usually agree, but you are being overly optimistic. Every win we get gives us a lower probability to get a higher draft pick. Chicago got lucky. Might we get lucky? Yes, of course. But that is not in our control. So hope for the best but plan for the worst. Another year where we get a mid level lottery pick. A chance to get another Marc Gasol, a very good role player but not a special elite low post scorer.

FA? It will always be competitive. Josh Smith, Boozer, Amare... will their teams resign them and will they come to Memphis. If we pay the most, the probably will, but there is not guarentee. Again it is out of our control. Hope of the best - Boozer or Amare comes free and we can make a move- plan for the worst.

Trade- To get a blockbuster deal like Celtics got for their big three again takes luck in finding a trade partner much like us with OJ. Again it is not really in our control. Hope for the best plan for the worst.

So- if none of those things fall our way.. what is left? Taking a chance and making a risky trade.

#11 Mus_u

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:57 AM

Why not?

I’m lame in my left leg, I can´t play basketball. I would change my right arm just for a healthy leg.

Hey, wait a minute…!


#12 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 11:18 AM

QUOTE (Mus_u @ Dec 18 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why not?

I’m lame in my left leg, I can´t play basketball. I would change my right arm just for a healthy leg.

Hey, wait a minute…!


Not the best analogy. I am not saying that losing one of those two in a trade would not be a set back. I am not even saying this is the most desired scenario. I am saying that it is a real possibility that would still be, overall, progress to our goal and we should be prepared for it.

All those years we had Pau we missed a true perimeter scorer. (as well as a defensive big). We now have two solid defensive big men and two perimeter scorers. It makes sense that if we cannot get what we need in more optimistic (yet possible) scenarios that the extra piece would be either one defensive big or one perimeter scorer. The defensive big might get us a solid role playing contributor on the perimeter, but not a true post threat. The perimeter star, if we are lucky in trade partners might get us an established big, but could probably get us an up in coming potential true post threat scorer.

I mean if you were Miami would you take established Rudy for the potential of Beasely? If you were the thunder would you take the established Rudy for potential of Griffin? If you were Atlanta would you take the established Rudy for the potential of Horford? But once those potential draft picks become established then the trade value swings to the big.

So all I am saying is that Grizz fans need to prepare themselves for the possibility of Rudy or maybe mayo (though i would choose Mayo over rudy right now) being traded in the near future if other factors don't swing our way.

And because we are on a tight window with this young talent I would say it would have to be decided this offseason. IF we dont get a high lottery pick and IF we seem to not be able to sign a big FA this year then I think the liklihood of rudy or Mayo being traded would go up drastically and though incredibly risky- it wouldnt necessarily be a bad move.







#13 GrizzledGrizzFan

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 11:22 AM

QUOTE (PragmaticIdealist @ Dec 18 2008, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It might. But my intent was not to talk about different trade scenarios but the team's future options, possibilities and probabilities. But if someone wants to move it I wouldn't object.



(my note was wholly sarcastic and not directed at you personally Prag - rather the OMG the word "trade" appears in the thread therefore it must be moved before the "Team Talk" forum is corrupted mod mentality tongue.gif )

#14 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 11:30 AM

QUOTE (GrizzledGrizzFan @ Dec 18 2008, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(my note was wholly sarcastic and not directed at you personally Prag - rather the OMG the word "trade" appears in the thread therefore it must be moved before the "Team Talk" forum is corrupted mod mentality tongue.gif )



Its cool. My post count may seem low, but I've been around here awhile. I am used to the (over) reaction to the location of threads. So I just go with it. wink.gif

#15 Mus_u

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 11:34 AM

QUOTE (PragmaticIdealist @ Dec 18 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not the best analogy. I am not saying that losing one of those two in a trade would not be a set back. I am not even saying this is the most desired scenario. I am saying that it is a real possibility that would still be, overall, progress to our goal and we should be prepared for it.

All those years we had Pau we missed a true perimeter scorer. (as well as a defensive big). We now have two solid defensive big men and two perimeter scorers. It makes sense that if we cannot get what we need in more optimistic (yet possible) scenarios that the extra piece would be either one defensive big or one perimeter scorer. The defensive big might get us a solid role playing contributor on the perimeter, but not a true post threat. The perimeter star, if we are lucky in trade partners might get us an established big, but could probably get us an up in coming potential true post threat scorer.

I mean if you were Miami would you take established Rudy for the potential of Beasely? If you were the thunder would you take the established Rudy for potential of Griffin? If you were Atlanta would you take the established Rudy for the potential of Horford? But once those potential draft picks become established then the trade value swings to the big.

So all I am saying is that Grizz fans need to prepare themselves for the possibility of Rudy or maybe mayo (though i would choose Mayo over rudy right now) being traded in the near future if other factors don't swing our way.

And because we are on a tight window with this young talent I would say it would have to be decided this offseason. IF we dont get a high lottery pick and IF we seem to not be able to sign a big FA this year then I think the liklihood of rudy or Mayo being traded would go up drastically and though incredibly risky- it wouldnt necessarily be a bad move.


I think some of the last years we missed more than a true perimeter scorer.

Seriously, we are in the way for a lottery pick. We have cap space to sign big FA (BTW the main guys out there this summer are PF's). Too many IF's to start talking about trading Rudy or OJ.

We are not supose to solve every need in the short term. I mean, right now. We are in 3yp, aren't we?

ps- Of course almost everybody is tradeable at the right price. But if I had to choose, I would trade Rudy. He is good. He can be great. But OJ is special.




#16 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 11:49 AM

QUOTE (Mus_u @ Dec 18 2008, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think some of the last years we missed more than a true perimeter scorer.

Seriously, we are in the way for a lottery pick. We have cap space to sign big FA (BTW the main guys out there this summer are PF's). Too many IF's to start talking about trading Rudy or OJ.

We are not supose to solve every need in the short term. I mean, right now. We are in 3yp, aren't we?

ps- Of course almost everybody is tradeable at the right price. But if I had to choose, I would trade Rudy. He is good. He can be great. But OJ is special.


I can agree with most of that. Though I wouldn't say trading Gay for a young guy being short term. I think if we are really on a 3yp then making such a trade at year 3 would set us back too much.

But I do agree that there are a lot of ifs between now and then. Just generating discussion and looking at possibilities and probabilities.


#17 Latilleon

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 12:16 PM

QUOTE (GrizzledGrizzFan @ Dec 18 2008, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Portland fans seem to think they can get Rudy for Outlaw and scraps. Here's the current source they're citing

http://www.clubblaze...lues-t1419.html

Personally I just don't see trading Rudy, unless it was for an established big - which isn't going to happen.






Oh, and doesn't this conversation belong on the "Trade Talk" forum...


Heard they had some good green in Portland.


#18 grizzfan8390

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 12:35 PM

No way on earth we trade Rudy for anything less than Aldrich AND LaFrentz.......just my take


#19 GrizzBill

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 12:37 PM

This is exactly why we stay a mediocre team. Everytime we get a good player, we always say, well let's trade him. We are missing this piece, and trading will fill it. We did it with Gasol, and Miller, so I guess Rudy is next? We still have holes, and we are still trading away key pieces.

#20 PragmaticIdealist

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 01:04 PM

QUOTE (GrizzBill @ Dec 18 2008, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is exactly why we stay a mediocre team. Everytime we get a good player, we always say, well let's trade him. We are missing this piece, and trading will fill it. We did it with Gasol, and Miller, so I guess Rudy is next? We still have holes, and we are still trading away key pieces.



Tell that to the Lakers when they got Kobe. Tell that to the Celtics. Tell that to countless other teams. We kept Gasol and Miller how long before we traded them? There are many things you can speculate on as to why we have been medicore. Trading away key pieces is not one of them, unless you are talking about Jwill, Posey, or Bonzi, in which you MIGHT have an argument. Have you forgotten that trading Battier got us Gay and trading Miller AND Love got us OJ. Those trades look great now, but they were risky at the time. Trading Pau got us Marc, Arthur, the cap space to sign a FA and the draft position to get OJ.

Trading away talent has definitely not been our problem since Wallace.