The Bears of 901

What do you all think?

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Let's put a scenario into play. Let's say Wayne plays like he did during summer league. That would make him the starting 2. I like a second unit of Reke, Ben, brooks, Martin, wright. What do you think the the first and second unit should look like once all of our players return?

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I prefer to see how the returnees are going to play before committing to that. It's hard enough to figure out after a few games, much less now.

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17 minutes ago, oldmanGrizz said:

I prefer to see how the returnees are going to play before committing to that. It's hard enough to figure out after a few games, much less now.

Agreed, it's just a "what if". It's a good problem to have with all this depth.

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In a perfect world where player contracts and FO demands don’t play a factor it would look like this.

1st Starters:

Conley, Selden, Ennis, Green and Gasol

2nd Starters:

Chalmers, Evans, Brooks, Parsons and Wright

Deep Bench (G League):

McLemore, Martin, Davis, Rabb, Harrison, 

of course McLemore was Wallace’s big FA signing so he’ll get more minutes than he deserves. Martin was given an extension this year so he’ll probably remain in the rotation as well. Harrison is eligible for G league assignment but he likely will not go because he’s a Fizdale pet too.

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45 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

In a perfect world where player contracts and FO demands don’t play a factor it would look like this.

1st Starters:

Conley, Selden, Ennis, Green and Gasol

2nd Starters:

Chalmers, Evans, Brooks, Parsons and Wright

Deep Bench (G League):

McLemore, Martin, Davis, Rabb, Harrison, 

of course McLemore was Wallace’s big FA signing so he’ll get more minutes than he deserves. Martin was given an extension this year so he’ll probably remain in the rotation as well. Harrison is eligible for G league assignment but he likely will not go because he’s a Fizdale pet too.

Even if Selden out performs McLemore in practice? McLemore will play more because of his contract so you say? Hmmmmmm....

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I feel the same way i did over the summer.

The problems starts with the supposed "superstars".   The grizz need to make big changes.  You can't hide the fact that your superstar play is average at best on most nights.  How do you really build around that?

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1 hour ago, Dwash said:

Even if Selden out performs McLemore in practice? McLemore will play more because of his contract so you say? Hmmmmmm....

I never said that. What I said was in a perfect world (which we don't live in) McLemore wouldn't be a part of the rotation and so he'll get minutes despite how he plays in practice or on the court. 

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20 minutes ago, tmoneyinmphs said:

I feel the same way i did over the summer.

The problems starts with the supposed "superstars".   The grizz need to make big changes.  You can't hide the fact that your superstar play is average at best on most nights.  How do you really build around that?

+1000  THIS IS THE PROBLEM.     The offense looks like garbage because the offense is built to feature Conley who has been garbage.    Mike's usage rate is too high for a guy producing at such an efficient rate.   His jacking up quick 3s and they are missing which sabotages the offense. 

There are 5 guys that are high activity  and keep the offense moving or scoring:  Brooks, Parsons, Reke, Wright, and Rio.  I believe JaM and Wayne could be added to that mix when given a chance.   

 After last nights game there needs to be a change to the rotation.   I like Ennis but he is a fair weather player, meaning that when team is clicking he does well but when it isn't he has zero effect.

    Brooks has earned the starting SF spot.  He is producing and playing well.   He is the best perimeter defender and finisher on the team.   He can dribble and pass.  

 Reke is the best player on the team and has a REAL Alpha dawg mentality.    Healthy Tyreke is better than Mike- sorry folks that is the reality.   Dude has always been uber-talented but only limited by situation and lack of jumpshot.    We have the perfect situation for him if Fiz goes ahead and starts him.      Fiz needs to understand that the getting the starting unit right is more important than having a great bench unit.    Plus starting him gives us a better chance of keeping him longterm.   Dude is in his prime only 27yrs old.  

Getting JaMychal back and putting Reke in starting lineup should help Marc tremendously.  That gives him some help with interior defense and someone good to defer to.     Mike can be the designated spot up shooter and secondary slasher/playmaker.  Playing off of Tyreke will allow him to be the Robin. 

New lineup is 

Mike/Rio

Reke/Ben or Wayne

Brooks/Ennis

JaM/Parsons

Gasol/Wright

 

When Mike needs time off just move Reke to PG and Wayne in starting lineup. 

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18 hours ago, The Bears of 901 said:

Let's put a scenario into play. Let's say Wayne plays like he did during summer league. That would make him the starting 2. I like a second unit of Reke, Ben, brooks, Martin, wright. What do you think the the first and second unit should look like once all of our players return?

Parsons has to be in the mix somewhere, they pay him too much money.

1 hour ago, tmoneyinmphs said:

I feel the same way i did over the summer.

The problems starts with the supposed "superstars".   The grizz need to make big changes.  You can't hide the fact that your superstar play is average at best on most nights.  How do you really build around that?

You can't build around glorified role players in Gasol and Conley. What is the point of having a strong bench with a weak starting 5? Its gimmicky and teams in the league are beginning to figure it out.

I've been calling for them to trade Gasol for 2 years now. His game is not suited for is physical attributes. The Bucks game exposed the fact that he is not a post player, he regularly gets checked by SF's and PF's. He doesn't have the shooting touch, quickness, speed, and athleticism to really play on the wings and behind the arc. Brevin Knight mentioned it several times last night that Gasol needs to play in the post more. Hanson was checking him because playing outside negates his size advantage and plays into his lack of speed, quickness, and athleticism. Gasol needs to be on a team like the Spurs that can use what he brings, when he brings it, but doesn't need him to bring it to be successful.

The Grizz have a NBA talent problem. Most nights, they simply do not have the talent to compete. That's not a problem when your mentality is to out work the other team, which has been what "grit-n-grind" was all about. Its time to grow up as a fan base and realize that marketing can't win championships. If you really look at this team, it is not a playoff team without serious personnel changes or serious changes in approach tot eh game. This team does not have the talent to outscore most NBA teams. They do have the skills to outwork and D up teams. 

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20 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

+1000  THIS IS THE PROBLEM.     The offense looks like garbage because the offense is built to feature Conley who has been garbage.    Mike's usage rate is too high for a guy producing at such an efficient rate.   His jacking up quick 3s and they are missing which sabotages the offense. 

There are 5 guys that are high activity  and keep the offense moving or scoring:  Brooks, Parsons, Reke, Wright, and Rio.  I believe JaM and Wayne could be added to that mix when given a chance.   

 After last nights game there needs to be a change to the rotation.   I like Ennis but he is a fair weather player, meaning that when team is clicking he does well but when it isn't he has zero effect.

    Brooks has earned the starting SF spot.  He is producing and playing well.   He is the best perimeter defender and finisher on the team.   He can dribble and pass.  

 Reke is the best player on the team and has a REAL Alpha dawg mentality.    Healthy Tyreke is better than Mike- sorry folks that is the reality.   Dude has always been uber-talented but only limited by situation and lack of jumpshot.    We have the perfect situation for him if Fiz goes ahead and starts him.      Fiz needs to understand that the getting the starting unit right is more important than having a great bench unit.    Plus starting him gives us a better chance of keeping him longterm.   Dude is in his prime only 27yrs old.  

Getting JaMychal back and putting Reke in starting lineup should help Marc tremendously.  That gives him some help with interior defense and someone good to defer to.     Mike can be the designated spot up shooter and secondary slasher/playmaker.  Playing off of Tyreke will allow him to be the Robin. 

New lineup is 

Mike/Rio

Reke/Ben or Wayne

Brooks/Ennis

JaM/Parsons

Gasol/Wright

 

When Mike needs time off just move Reke to PG and Wayne in starting lineup. 

Thank you!!! This needs to be said. Yes, that 2nd unit you propose is necessary, but it is slaw. But that just highlights the lack of real NBA talent with the Grizz at this point. The team needs to re-commit to D'ing up folks. Can't le teams score 30 pts/qtr and expect to compete.  

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3 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

Thank you!!! This needs to be said. Yes, that 2nd unit you propose is necessary, but it is slaw. But that just highlights the lack of real NBA talent with the Grizz at this point. The team needs to re-commit to D'ing up folks. Can't le teams score 30 pts/qtr and expect to compete.  

I actually don't think that second unit will be slaw at all.  Parsons is a productive player now and Rio can throw better lobs to Wright than Tyreke :lol:        Ben, Wayne, and Ennis are all interchangeable so just ride with whichever one produces the most. 

 

The D is still really good but will dramatically improve when Jarell gets out of the rotation.  Scoring points also helps the defense.  Especially for a team that is as poor at rebounding as we are. 

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1 minute ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I actually don't think that second unit will be slaw at all.  Parsons is a productive player now and Rio can throw better lobs to Wright than Tyreke :lol:        Ben, Wayne, and Ennis are all interchangeable so just ride with whichever one produces the most. 

When you are counting on Chandler Parsons to be your lead scorer off the bench, the bench is slaw. Parsons at best is a facilitator now not a lead scorer off the bench. When you have three players that are interchangable, it means you don't have the player you need in that role. Sort of like teams saying they have more than one starting quarterback.

What the team needs now is for the starting five to play together consistently and stop messing with the unit. Green, Selden and McLemore are almost back and Fizdale needs to focus on getting the starters on the same page not mess with the only part of the team that is working.  

The D is still really good but will dramatically improve when Jarell gets out of the rotation.  Scoring points also helps the defense.  Especially for a team that is as poor at rebounding as we are. 

I agree that Martin being replaced by Green could improve the defense assuming Green is 100% healthy and not trying to do more than he is capable of. He has to be emotionally irritated after thinking he'd be paid a lot more than he has been this summer. I'm concerned about his attitude sliding. 

 

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2 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

When you are counting on Chandler Parsons to be your lead scorer off the bench, the bench is slaw. Parsons at best is a facilitator now not a lead scorer off the bench. When you have three players that are interchangable, it means you don't have the player you need in that role. Sort of like teams saying they have more than one starting quarterback.

What the team needs now is for the starting five to play together consistently and stop messing with the unit. Green, Selden and McLemore are almost back and Fizdale needs to focus on getting the starters on the same page not mess with the only part of the team that is working.  

I didn't say i was counting on Parsons to be the leading bench scorer.  I said he is now productive.   Believe it or not the bench unit plays with the quicker pace and has been great defensively.    Rio + Parsons + Wright should be able to maintain that no matter who is on the wing.    They won't need to put up ridiculous scoring if the Starting Lineup does its job.     Parsons ability to facilitate will give help guys like Ben and Ennis who need guys to create for them to have an impact.   Plus the faster pace will help guys like Ennis, Wayne and Ben who all thrive in transition.  

Fiz has no choice but to fiddle with starting lineup due to guys coming back from injury.  The lack of consistency with starting lineup is the reason i believe he doubled-down on keeping bench the same.   

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1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

I never said that. What I said was in a perfect world (which we don't live in) McLemore wouldn't be a part of the rotation and so he'll get minutes despite how he plays in practice or on the court. 

Yes exactly. Folks on here have been arguring for years that guys get minutes based on factors other than ability. Such as contracts and "status" (locker room, veteran). You have been fighting tooth and nail that this isnt the case...coaches will always play their best. Now you are saying that the best man wont play.

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18 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I didn't say i was counting on Parsons to be the leading bench scorer.  I said he is now productive.   Believe it or not the bench unit plays with the quicker pace and has been great defensively.    Rio + Parsons + Wright should be able to maintain that no matter who is on the wing.    They won't need to put up ridiculous scoring if the Starting Lineup does its job.     Parsons ability to facilitate will give help guys like Ben and Ennis who need guys to create for them to have an impact.   Plus the faster pace will help guys like Ennis, Wayne and Ben who all thrive in transition.  

Fiz has no choice but to fiddle with starting lineup due to guys coming back from injury.  The lack of consistency with starting lineup is the reason i believe he doubled-down on keeping bench the same.   

I agree that Fizdale has had to shuffle the lineups. I disagree that the answer is to continue to screw with the lineups instead of putting the former or expected starters back into their roles. I disagree that Fizdale has refused to alter the 2nd team as well. Dillon Brooks wasn't always the starter. He beat out Harrison to take that role. Fizdale made that adjustment. 

To continue to gut the strong point on the team (the bench) to prop up the starting unit at the same time that Selden, McLemore and Green are returning is making too many adjustments and depleting the strength of the team. This isn't fantasy basketball where you can shuffle players around willy-nilly with not impact on their performance. Maintaining some level of chemistry is important. 

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21 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Yes exactly. Folks on here have been arguring for years that guys get minutes based on factors other than ability. Such as contracts and "status" (locker room, veteran). You have been fighting tooth and nail that this isnt the case...coaches will always play their best. Now you are saying that the best man wont play.

I never said that players weren't rewarded with minutes based on front office pressure. I have said that if a player was 'outperforming in practice that the coach will play him more in games and if he continued to outperform in games he'd get more minutes, especially when the coach's job is on the line if he doesn't win.'

I still stand by that belief.

I have never been in favor of players getting minutes for any reason other than talent that I can remember. Everyone recognizes that Parsons got minutes last season despite not earning them. No one has ever argued in favor of this. It's a fact of life we have to deal with. The same will likely hold true this season with McLemore. 

I believe you may be confusing previous discussions between others and myself. Many people have argued that 'practice' isn't important and all that matters is game play so the coach needs to play rookies and others more in games to determine if they can play. I disagree with that philosophy. I believe players have to earn their minutes. It doesn't always happen that way but that is the way it should be. I've always argued against players being 'given' minutes without earning them. 

For example, Brooks earned his rotation spot in training camp and pre-season, then earned the starting spot in games. This is an example of someone earning his minutes. Ivan Rabb was chosen ahead of Brooks and has barely seen the court this season because he hasn't shown as much in practice despite dominating in games with the Hustle. Funny that we haven't heard anyone this season blasting Fizdale for not playing Rabb isn't it? 

I stand by what I originally wrote.

Quote

"In a perfect world, where player contracts and FO demands don’t play a factor it would look like this.

1st Starters:

Conley, Selden, Ennis, Green and Gasol

2nd Starters:

Chalmers, Evans, Brooks, Parsons and Wright

Deep Bench (G League):

McLemore, Martin, Davis, Rabb, Harrison, 

Of course McLemore was Wallace’s big FA signing so he’ll get more minutes than he deserves. Martin was given an extension this year so he’ll probably remain in the rotation as well. Harrison is eligible for G league assignment but he likely will not go because he’s a Fizdale pet too."

 

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5 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Ivan Rabb was chosen ahead of Brooks and has barely seen the court this season because he hasn't shown as much in practice despite dominating in games with the Hustle. Funny that we haven't heard anyone this season blasting Fizdale for not playing Rabb isn't it? 

That's a big fat incorrect assumption there.   Rabb was hurt for half the summer and recovering.   Fiz also likes to play only 1 true Big lineups.  Wright and Gasol have those positions on lock so not much flexibility when Deyonta is ahead of him too.     You seem to always lean on the side of lack of PT almost always being the players fault.   When in reality like DWash stated - situation has a ton to do with it.   

For example Harrison didn't "earn" his starting position beginning of the year, yet he started because of the situation (injuries).   Brooks took his spot but he hadn't been the most productive wing player - that would be Tyreke.    

10 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I have never been in favor of players getting minutes for any reason other than talent that I can remember.

What you admitted right here is the same thing some of us have been saying for years.     Practice only matters for the fringe guys.  The most talented guys USUALLY get the minutes regardless.    In most cases lottery picks and highly paid guys are defacto rotation guys BECAUSE they are the most talented.   

 

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Dude our whole argument over the years has been that outside factors other than performance or practice can determine playing time. Not once until now have you admitted that something other than that performance can determine playing time. Atleast I havent seen it.  You have said several times that the coaches job is to win and he will play the best player regardless. Now you are saying Selden is better but likely wont play. You cant see that contradiction?

Yeah it "doesnt happen that way" thats been my point (and others) all along. Lol.

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32 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I agree that Fizdale has had to shuffle the lineups. I disagree that the answer is to continue to screw with the lineups instead of putting the former or expected starters back into their roles. I disagree that Fizdale has refused to alter the 2nd team as well. Dillon Brooks wasn't always the starter. He beat out Harrison to take that role. Fizdale made that adjustment. 

To continue to gut the strong point on the team (the bench) to prop up the starting unit at the same time that Selden, McLemore and Green are returning is making too many adjustments and depleting the strength of the team. This isn't fantasy basketball where you can shuffle players around willy-nilly with not impact on their performance. Maintaining some level of chemistry is important. 

If you agree that he has HAD to shuffle lineups then how do you disagree with him shuffling (screwing with) the lineups?    Dillon Brooks is the starter because you need 5 guys to start and Harrison needed to be out of rotation.  Even with Brooks now a starter the second unit is still good. 

No team purposely starts its weaker lineup for all 82 games.    Fizdale is trying to figure out the right combination of guys that  accentuate his highest paid players.    He is hesitant to fiddle with Bench unit solely because that combination maximizes Parsons, Wright, and Rio's production so far.     Tyreke is showing that no matter who is on the court - he WILL produce.  Brooks is showing that he has nice chemistry with any unit.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

Parsons has to be in the mix somewhere, they pay him too much money.

You can't build around glorified role players in Gasol and Conley. What is the point of having a strong bench with a weak starting 5? Its gimmicky and teams in the league are beginning to figure it out.

I've been calling for them to trade Gasol for 2 years now. His game is not suited for is physical attributes. The Bucks game exposed the fact that he is not a post player, he regularly gets checked by SF's and PF's. He doesn't have the shooting touch, quickness, speed, and athleticism to really play on the wings and behind the arc. Brevin Knight mentioned it several times last night that Gasol needs to play in the post more. Hanson was checking him because playing outside negates his size advantage and plays into his lack of speed, quickness, and athleticism. Gasol needs to be on a team like the Spurs that can use what he brings, when he brings it, but doesn't need him to bring it to be successful.

The Grizz have a NBA talent problem. Most nights, they simply do not have the talent to compete. That's not a problem when your mentality is to out work the other team, which has been what "grit-n-grind" was all about. Its time to grow up as a fan base and realize that marketing can't win championships. If you really look at this team, it is not a playoff team without serious personnel changes or serious changes in approach tot eh game. This team does not have the talent to outscore most NBA teams. They do have the skills to outwork and D up teams. 

Henson has given Gasol fits before last night.  He's tall, quick and very athletic. Gasol is not quick or athletic, I think he should stay on the outside.

I do see this team making the playoffs, Conley is either going to have to get it going on or see his playing time cut, he's really hurting the Grizz. Last nights' loss was on him, the 1 before was on him and Mario.

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

That's a big fat incorrect assumption there.   Rabb was hurt for half the summer and recovering.   Fiz also likes to play only 1 true Big lineups.  Wright and Gasol have those positions on lock so not much flexibility when Deyonta is ahead of him too.     You seem to always lean on the side of lack of PT almost always being the players fault.   When in reality like DWash stated - situation has a ton to do with it.   

For example Harrison didn't "earn" his starting position beginning of the year, yet he started because of the situation (injuries).   Brooks took his spot but he hadn't been the most productive wing player - that would be Tyreke.    

What you admitted right here is the same thing some of us have been saying for years.     Practice only matters for the fringe guys.  The most talented guys USUALLY get the minutes regardless.    In most cases lottery picks and highly paid guys are defacto rotation guys BECAUSE they are the most talented.   

 

Rabb was hurt this past summer and didn't play summer league but he has played all of training camp and pre-season but rarely saw the court then too. Jarell Martin (6-10, 235) is as big as Rabb (6-10, 220) so it isn't like Rabb can't play alongside Wright or Gasol. That is a "big fat incorrect assumption" there buddy. 

Harrison was, in the coach's eyes, the best player available to start the season. If you remember Harrison started last season when Conley was out and played a lot of minutes last year. He played extremely well in the playoffs and the team's winning percentage when Harrison started wasn't too shabby either. The Grizz went 5-3 with Harrison starting and are 2-3 when he hasn't started. You can make all the excuses you want as to why that shouldn't matter but I prefer winning to excuses. 

I admit that Parsons got minutes because of his contract so I don't always side against the players. I just believe that players should earn their minutes not be given them. Parsons was given them last season. Last night McLemore was given them too. Not impressed with either of those decisions by the coaching staff. I am against players being given minutes without earning them. 

I understand that talent needs to be on the court. I don't agree that a coach can't see that unless he is playing in a real game. I believe that if a player wants to see the court he has to outwork and outplay those ahead of him in practice. Then he has to take advantage of the situations when he is given his shot. 

Brooks was a 2nd round pick who earned his way into the lineup by his play in practice, in the pre-season games and then earned his starting position by his play on the court in real games. Rabb wasn't in shape (you can make any excuse you want as to why he wasn't in shape), didn't play as well (you can make all the excuses you want on why that was) and lost out on minutes because of that and not because the coach didn't like him or just didn't want to play him. Let's not pretend Brooks was some lottery pick who didn't have to earn his way into the rotation. 

I don't BLAME anyone. I simply don't reward anyone for what they haven't earned yet. 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

If you agree that he has HAD to shuffle lineups then how do you disagree with him shuffling (screwing with) the lineups?    Dillon Brooks is the starter because you need 5 guys to start and Harrison needed to be out of rotation.  Even with Brooks now a starter the second unit is still good. 

No team purposely starts its weaker lineup for all 82 games.    Fizdale is trying to figure out the right combination of guys that  accentuate his highest paid players.    He is hesitant to fiddle with Bench unit solely because that combination maximizes Parsons, Wright, and Rio's production so far.     Tyreke is showing that no matter who is on the court - he WILL produce.  Brooks is showing that he has nice chemistry with any unit.  

If Fizdale is "trying to figure out the right combination of guys that accentuate his highest paid players" then he is a terrible coach and should be replaced immediately. His goal should be to find the best combination of players to win games and ignore their salaries.

What a player is paid is a front office decision. When a player plays is a coaching decision. How a player performs is an individual decision made by the player during workouts, practice and games. 

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33 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

If Fizdale is "trying to figure out the right combination of guys that accentuate his highest paid players" then he is a terrible coach and should be replaced immediately. His goal should be to find the best combination of players to win games and ignore their salaries.

What a player is paid is a front office decision. When a player plays is a coaching decision. How a player performs is an individual decision made by the player during workouts, practice and games. 

Are you serious?  This "belief" you have is only reality in amateur and rec leagues.    In multi-billion dollar sports entertainment the highest paid athletes always get the priority FIRST.   Fiz wasn't hired to simply "win games" he was brought in to develop players and transition the team focus from old CORE4 to the new CORE3 while making the playoffs.   Figuring out how to best use Mike, Marc, and Parsons IS  his primary job.    

We have had 3 different coaches and you still repeat the same mantra that "every roster guy has to earn his spot".  Even though it NONE of the coaches adhered to your philosophy. 

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4 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Are you serious?  This "belief" you have is only reality in amateur and rec leagues.    In multi-billion dollar sports entertainment the highest paid athletes always get the priority FIRST.   Fiz wasn't hired to simply "win games" he was brought in to develop players and transition the team focus from old CORE4 to the new CORE3 while making the playoffs.   Figuring out how to best use Mike, Marc, and Parsons IS  his primary job.    

We have had 3 different coaches and you still repeat the same mantra that "every roster guy has to earn his spot".  Even though it NONE of the coaches adhered to your philosophy. 

And that is why you wanted to fire the first two and will soon be wanting to fire the 3rd. When winning isn't the priority for the coach then then the coach needs to be relieved of his duties. 

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