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Conley/Gasol Questionable for Orlando plus other updates

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13 minutes ago, Dwash said:

I never said he didnt. I question why someone thinks that Gasol over Aldridge suddenly vaults them over Golden State. Gasol will improve the defense, but the Warriors likely wont respect his post game that much (as teams have shown before) and wont be as afraid to let the Greens and Durants guard him on one on one, so they can stay in the small lineup. Aldridge is a tougher dilemna for small bigs.

System. Spurs don’t play inside out and Gasol while not as good of a post player isn’t a bad one either 

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Mav, how can you say that Gasol out performed LA  the last two years when it was clear that the Grizz needed him to step up scoring  big time and he didn't? When LA was in Portland he was putting up 24 and 11, Gasol has never done that. LA was putting those numbers up even with Lillard and McCullum. For what the Grizz need now (reliable scoring), Gasol is not as well suited for as LA. If Gasol's D and passing made much difference, then  Grizz would have won more games. They don't need "Gasol the assist man", they need Gasol putting up 25 and 10 every night, which he has never done.

Sure, we can debate the merits of LA and Gasol, but be sure to understand that the Spurs and the Grizz are two vastly different teams. Gasol is a great player, I do not doubt that. I believe that his game negates his size advantage most nights. He's not athletic or strong enough to play the "stretch" role like he wants to. In today's NBA, a true back to the basket center could dominate, considering that the league is going away from that style. The Grizz are trying to open it up (which is a good idea), but they do not have the shooting accuracy yet to jack up 30 3's a game and neglect a true post advantage they could have if Gasol ever developed a strong low post game.  LA would give them more on the low post, and with the lack of outside shooting, that's is what best suits the Grizz at the moment. If they had better shooters, Gasol would be a good match. But right now, especially without the elite D the team is used to, they need consistent scoring.

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5 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

Mav, how can you say that Gasol out performed LA  the last two years when it was clear that the Grizz needed him to step up scoring  big time and he didn't? When LA was in Portland he was putting up 24 and 11, Gasol has never done that. LA was putting those numbers up even with Lillard and McCullum. For what the Grizz need now (reliable scoring), Gasol is not as well suited for as LA. If Gasol's D and passing made much difference, then  Grizz would have won more games. They don't need "Gasol the assist man", they need Gasol putting up 25 and 10 every night, which he has never done.

Sure, we can debate the merits of LA and Gasol, but be sure to understand that the Spurs and the Grizz are two vastly different teams. Gasol is a great player, I do not doubt that. I believe that his game negates his size advantage most nights. He's not athletic or strong enough to play the "stretch" role like he wants to. In today's NBA, a true back to the basket center could dominate, considering that the league is going away from that style. The Grizz are trying to open it up (which is a good idea), but they do not have the shooting accuracy yet to jack up 30 3's a game and neglect a true post advantage they could have if Gasol ever developed a strong low post game.  LA would give them more on the low post, and with the lack of outside shooting, that's is what best suits the Grizz at the moment. If they had better shooters, Gasol would be a good match. But right now, especially without the elite D the team is used to, they need consistent scoring.

So now we’re not using stats or basing our thoughts and opinions off of what you think is correct even though I expounded on why Gasol is the perfect Center for this team and why he has never put up those stats like Aldridge. 

Refer to previous couple of posts please. 

Also, you Admin DWASH seem to think that Gasol is just far inferior inside the paint than Aldridge which is not the case. Yes, Aldridge is better, but to think that Aldridge would just CHANGE the game compared to Marc’s low post offense is nonsense. 

This is another ZBO effect from the past couple of years as well. ZBO was the dump down player (although they did change it up in the last two seasons) while Gasol was at the elbow. 

This year you have seen Marc aggressively take it to the rim, his post play last night was a prime example as well. 

Gasol can also go from the three point line to the paint with the ball in his hands, something Aldridge can’t do. 

Mid you are talking about 2ft from the basket why does that matter when in fact Gasol has scored most of his points in the paint this year?

AGAIN for the LAST TIME, Aldridge has never had a low post player paired with him. He was the guy to go to in the paint. Gasol has the benefit of ZBO for the better part of 5 years. The stats I provided on the previous page show this. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Memphis Maverick said:

So now we’re not using stats or basing our thoughts and opinions off of what you think is correct even though I expounded on why Gasol is the perfect Center for this team and why he has never put up those stats like Aldridge. 

Refer to previous couple of posts please. 

Also, you Admin DWASH seem to think that Gasol is just far inferior inside the paint than Aldridge which is not the case. Yes, Aldridge is better, but to think that Aldridge would just CHANGE the game compared to Marc’s low post offense is nonsense. 

This is another ZBO effect from the past couple of years as well. ZBO was the dump down player (although they did change it up in the last two seasons) while Gasol was at the elbow. 

This year you have seen Marc aggressively take it to the rim, his post play last night was a prime example as well. 

Gasol can also go from the three point line to the paint with the ball in his hands, something Aldridge can’t do. 

Mid you are talking about 2ft from the basket why does that matter when in fact Gasol has scored most of his points in the paint this year?

AGAIN for the LAST TIME, Aldridge has never had a low post player paired with him. He was the guy to go to in the paint. Gasol has the benefit of ZBO for the better part of 5 years. The stats I provided on the previous page show this. 

 

In one post you say the last two years Gasol out performed LA. When that was shown statistically not to be the case,  in another post you say Gasol deferred to Z-Bo, while at the same time you admit the last two years, Gasol was the focal point of the team, not Z-Bo. Make up your mind, either Gasol's production paled to LA's because Gasol deferred to Z-Bo (even when he shouldn't have- see last two years), or Gasol just simply isn't as productive as LA. You can't have it both ways lamenting that Z-Bo hampered Gasol's production and then say Gasol is vastly superior to LA, even for the Spurs. Gasol's skill set and physical attributes  belie that he will be very hard pressed to average 20 and 10 in a season, Z-Bo deferments or not.

 And please do not make the argument about Gasol's post moves and drives to the basket being a strong suit of his game. Jump shooting? For a big man yes. But low post scoring and rebounding? Heck no! Most times he looks like a baby giraffe driving the lane. His go to post move is the turn around-fade away jumper, a hugely low percentage post shot. Yes, he can hit it, but at the rate of one who is shooting 20 ft. jumpers, not on the low post.

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29 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

In one post you say the last two years Gasol out performed LA. When that was shown statistically not to be the case,  in another post you say Gasol deferred to Z-Bo, while at the same time you admit the last two years, Gasol was the focal point of the team, not Z-Bo. Make up your mind, either Gasol's production paled to LA's because Gasol deferred to Z-Bo (even when he shouldn't have- see last two years), or Gasol just simply isn't as productive as LA. You can't have it both ways lamenting that Z-Bo hampered Gasol's production and then say Gasol is vastly superior to LA, even for the Spurs. Gasol's skill set and physical attributes  belie that he will be very hard pressed to average 20 and 10 in a season, Z-Bo deferments or not.

 And please do not make the argument about Gasol's post moves and drives to the basket being a strong suit of his game. Jump shooting? For a big man yes. But low post scoring and rebounding? Heck no! Most times he looks like a baby giraffe driving the lane. His go to post move is the turn around-fade away jumper, a hugely low percentage post shot. Yes, he can hit it, but at the rate of one who is shooting 20 ft. jumpers, not on the low post.

This stuff just shot way over your head. I understand. You see, in the stats I provided (playoffs) LaMarcus has not been the better player. Marc has produced more ppg, had a year where he out rebounded LaMarcus, and has way more assists. Not to mention Gasol blocked more shots 🤷‍♂️. 

Now, the point for referencing ZBO is that if you look  at the stats for the years provided the game started to move more towards Marc being the dominant player he last two seasons in the post, but again Zach was still there. Rebounds almost always went to him to stat pad and Gasol didn’t care. 

The low post being dominated by two scorers in the system they were running was always going to limit Marc’s numbers. 

I don’t have time to post regular season stats but I feel he playoffs are more valuable as they provide better competition. 

Just think, Marc has never been surrounded by shooters, iso scorers, and athleticism like he has this year and he put those numbers up! Crazy.

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1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

In one post you say the last two years Gasol out performed LA. When that was shown statistically not to be the case,  in another post you say Gasol deferred to Z-Bo, while at the same time you admit the last two years, Gasol was the focal point of the team, not Z-Bo. Make up your mind, either Gasol's production paled to LA's because Gasol deferred to Z-Bo (even when he shouldn't have- see last two years), or Gasol just simply isn't as productive as LA. You can't have it both ways lamenting that Z-Bo hampered Gasol's production and then say Gasol is vastly superior to LA, even for the Spurs. Gasol's skill set and physical attributes  belie that he will be very hard pressed to average 20 and 10 in a season, Z-Bo deferments or not.

 And please do not make the argument about Gasol's post moves and drives to the basket being a strong suit of his game. Jump shooting? For a big man yes. But low post scoring and rebounding? Heck no! Most times he looks like a baby giraffe driving the lane. His go to post move is the turn around-fade away jumper, a hugely low percentage post shot. Yes, he can hit it, but at the rate of one who is shooting 20 ft. jumpers, not on the low post.

I’ll make comments about his post game all I want. Yes that is his game in the post. But again, I’ll let you look up where he is scoring most of his points his year and he year before.

This year his fg% within 3ft of the basket is .750. Within 3-10ft is .450

2PT is about even with Aldridge with Gasol being .500 vs Aldridge at .513

Aldridge fg% within 3ft of the basket this year is .622 and within 3-10ft is .524.

I could delve further into this, but that would require about 2 pages of posts 😆.

 

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1 hour ago, Memphis Maverick said:

This stuff just shot way over your head. I understand. You see, in the stats I provided (playoffs) LaMarcus has not been the better player. Marc has produced more ppg, had a year where he out rebounded LaMarcus, and has way more assists. Not to mention Gasol blocked more shots 🤷‍♂️. 

Now, the point for referencing ZBO is that if you look  at the stats for the years provided the game started to move more towards Marc being the dominant player he last two seasons in the post, but again Zach was still there. Rebounds almost always went to him to stat pad and Gasol didn’t care. 

The low post being dominated by two scorers in the system they were running was always going to limit Marc’s numbers. 

I don’t have time to post regular season stats but I feel he playoffs are more valuable as they provide better competition. 

Just think, Marc has never been surrounded by shooters, iso scorers, and athleticism like he has this year and he put those numbers up! Crazy.

Regular season or playoffs, what Gasol has done for the Grizz has not been enough to pronounce him as the best center in the league, nor ions better than LA. For what the Grizz need, Gasol simply has not done enough. Gasol lost me in the playoffs against the Dubs when they doubled Z-Bo and left Draymond Green to guard him. He didn't even break 20 points the rest of the series until game 6 where he scored 21. 21 points was the most he scored while being guarded by someone 6 inches shorter than him. Why? Because he couldn't take advantage of his height  because he has no low post game. That is what I mean by his game negates his size advantage. He played in the backcourt or the high post where Dray Green's strength, speed and quickness advantages took over. Strategically, Gasol 's game just doesn't work well to be counted on as a team's primary scorer. The Grizz are counting on him for that, and he fails every time.

And as much as we anticipate him having a break out year this year, the most we can expect is inconsistent scoring and very little rebounding. He can get hot from 3 and go for 35 one night, but trust that he will go for 8-12 soon after. That's just the nature of his game.  He just doesn't have the skill set to be a low post dominant big and he doesn't have the athleticism and other physical attributes to be good at being a stretch big. He can get you jump shots on the regular and some elite D in selected spots. That is a s much as you can expect from him. These are not the attributes of a terrible player, but a player who needs the right team and system to thrive. He is not the cornerstone of a true contender. I firmly think Boogie Cousins could thrive in  situation like Memphis, if they brought in a vet leader that could real him in, like Z-Bo or VC.

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22 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

Regular season or playoffs, what Gasol has done for the Grizz has not been enough to pronounce him as the best center in the league, nor ions better than LA. For what the Grizz need, Gasol simply has not done enough. Gasol lost me in the playoffs against the Dubs when they Doubled Z-Bo and left Draymond Green to guard him. He didn't even break 20 points the rest of the series until game 6 where he scored 21. 21 points was the most he scored while being guarded by someone 6 inches shorter than him. Why? Because he couldn't take advantage of his height advantage because he has no low post game. That is what I mean by his game negates his size advantage. he played in the backcourt or the high post where Dray Green's strength,. speed and quickness advantages took over. Strategically, Gasol 's game just doesn't work well to be counted on as a team's primary scorer. the Grizz are counting on him for that, and he fails every time.

 

And as much as we anticipate him having a break out year this year, the most we can expect is inconsistent scoring and very little rebounding. He can get hot from 3 and go for 35 one night, but trust that he will go for 8-12 soon after. That's just the nature of his game.  He just doesn't have the skill set to be a low post dominant big and he doesn't have the athleticism and other physical attributes to be good at being a stretch big. He can get you jump shots on the regular and some elite D in selected spots. That is a s much as you can expect from him. These are not the attributes of a terrible player, but a player who needs the right team and system to thrive. He is not the cornerstone of a true contender. I firmly think Boogie Cousins could thrive in  situation like Memphis, if they brought in a vet leader that could real him in, like Z-Bo or VC.

I’d also like to point out thatbAldridge has shot the ball over 20 times a night so far 4 out of 7 games. Gasol hasn’t shot close to 20 shots in ANY game this year except the first game where he attempted 18.

Hoever... he interesting thing is that Marc has had close to the same stats as Aldridge in all but 3 games in which I expect Aldridge to have those nights as well. 

 

 

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Blackwatch i understand you have disdain for Marc but LA aint the answer.   If you want to argue that Marc doesn't stack up to Hakeem or Tim Duncan or heck even healthy Embiid.  Then sure go ahead.  But to act like Aldridge is a better fit for our team due to having better low post moves is asinine.  LA isn't even a true Center he has always played PF.    

I don't think anyone will debate you on the merits that Gasol is a Top 5 player in the league and championship cornerstone.  But your infatuation with the low post scoring skillset is way off base.    It has been documented repeatedly that low post scoring is one of the least efficient ways to score for years now.    There is a reason why teams have gone away from it as the center of their offense in the last 10 years.    GSW, DAL, MIA, and CLE have all won big as "jump shooting" teams.  

Heck go look at what Zbo is doing in SAC.   https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoza01.html  while playing in a traditional 2 big system for Joerger. 

10.8ppg  6.3rbs  41.2FG%   44.1eFG% and 13.1PER.      All those low post moves, vet experience and heart is obviously resulting in wins and great stats.  

Once again i agree Marc is frustrating and i wanted to trade him this summer.   But as of right now i don't see any realistic available options out there that would be better fit for our team.    And he is still a consensus top 3-5 center in the league.  

 

 

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22 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Blackwatch i understand you have disdain for Marc but LA aint the answer.   If you want to argue that Marc doesn't stack up to Hakeem or Tim Duncan or heck even healthy Embiid.  Then sure go ahead.  But to act like Aldridge is a better fit for our team due to having better low post moves is asinine.  LA isn't even a true Center he has always played PF.    

I don't think anyone will debate you on the merits that Gasol is a Top 5 player in the league and championship cornerstone.  But your infatuation with the low post scoring skillset is way off base.    It has been documented repeatedly that low post scoring is one of the least efficient ways to score for years now.    There is a reason why teams have gone away from it as the center of their offense in the last 10 years.    GSW, DAL, MIA, and CLE have all won big as "jump shooting" teams.  

Heck go look at what Zbo is doing in SAC.   https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoza01.html  while playing in a traditional 2 big system for Joerger. 

10.8ppg  6.3rbs  41.2FG%   44.1eFG% and 13.1PER.      All those low post moves, vet experience and heart is obviously resulting in wins and great stats.  

Once again i agree Marc is frustrating and i wanted to trade him this summer.   But as of right now i don't see any realistic available options out there that would be better fit for our team.    And he is still a consensus top 3-5 center in the league.  

 

 

I am not obsessed with low post scoring. I am arguing that Gasol is not the great stretch big everyone on here keeps claiming he is. He has the physical attributes of a traditional center, but he wants to play on the high post out to the back court. I'm saying that what he brings to the table physically is better suited for a traditional role, not that everyone big needs to be a low post banger.

I will say that if you have a big like Gasol, that there is nothing wrong with him developing a good back to the basket, low post game. a 7 ' center taking a 3 ft. bank shot is still a higher percentage shot than a  6' guard launching a 30 ' 3 pointer. Advanced stats aside, if you launch a bunch of 3's at a high rate , eventually you will out score someone shooting 2 pt. shots at a slower pace.

 Z-Bo's decline has more to do with Z-Bo's age and lack of real athleticism compared to the bigs that guard him on the low post, not that the low post game is obsolete. Also, keep in mind the rules in the NBA have changed to favor high pick and rolls and jump shots to highlight the athleticism of the majority of the athletes in the league. It makes for better TV basically. Because of that, many of the bigs today are really just guards with late growth spurts, like Ben Simmons, KD, the Greek Freak, and Anthony Davis. They don't rely on post moves because they do not have to. They developed guard skills early on and the added height is just a bonus.

Is LA the answer? I really don't know, but I think he would give the Grizz more from the Center spot than Gasol does. But , my ultimate dream would be Cousins, not LA.

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4 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

I am not obsessed with low post scoring. I am arguing that Gasol is not the great stretch big everyone on here keeps claiming he is. He has the physical attributes of a traditional center, but he wants to play on the high post out to the back court. I'm saying that what he brings to the table physically is better suited for a traditional role, not that everyone big needs to be a low post banger.

I will say that if you have a big like Gasol, that there is nothing wrong with him developing a good back to the basket, low post game. a 7 ' center taking a 3 ft. bank shot is still a higher percentage shot than a  6' guard launching a 30 ' 3 pointer. Advanced stats aside, if you launch a bunch of 3's at a high rate , eventually you will out score someone shooting 2 pt. shots at a slower pace.

 Z-Bo's decline has more to do with Z-Bo's age and lack of real athleticism compared to the bigs that guard him on the low post, not that the low post game is obsolete. Also, keep in mind the rules in the NBA have changed to favor high pick and rolls and jump shots to highlight the athleticism of the majority of the athletes in the league. It makes for better TV basically. Because of that, many of the bigs today are really just guards with late growth spurts, like Ben Simmons, KD, the Greek Freak, and Anthony Davis. They don't rely on post moves because they do not have to. They developed guard skills early on and the added height is just a bonus.

Is LA the answer? I really don't know, but I think he would give the Grizz more from the Center spot than Gasol does. But , my ultimate dream would be Cousins, not LA.

Good article

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2015/04/06/big-men-center-position-rudy-gobert-marc-gasol-andrew-bogut/70760658/

"The pick-and-roll, dribble hand-off and corner three-pointer are keys to efficient offenses, particularly because the NBA has reduced one-on-one play by allowing zone defense. So pounding the ball into the post no longer works in the same way it did. Even dominant offensive big men, such as Sacramento Kings center DeMarcus Cousins and Charlotte Hornets center Al Jefferson, must find new ways to score."

How many times have seen Gasol get stripped in the paint because he is trying to set up for post moves and over dribbles.   Its too easy for defenses now to kill low post scorers now due to the rules change.    

 

And no LA would not give us more at the center spot than Gasol does.  Gasol is better defender, passer, outside shooter, and playmaker.   LA is the better scorer and rebounder.  That is not more.   

Boogie offers the better talent and ability BUT he is a headcase.   As we saw last night this new team cannot handle a headcase of the level of Boogie.  

https://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2014/03/19/nba-post-players-dirk-nowitzki-al-jefferson-lebron-james

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/how-efficient-is-a-post-up-play/

 

To find an answer to that question, we have to look at the basic anatomy of the play itself. A strict back-to-the-basket (though a player can face up from that position) post-up usually occurs anywhere from the block to mid-post on either side of the floor. The result of most of these situations, on the NBA level at least, are jump hooks or turnaround jumpers. So despite the image you might have in your head of a player going to work deep in the paint, right near the basket, the actual shot results are typically short to midrange 2s anywhere from roughly four to 12 feet from the hoop. As the analytics movement has told us, shots from those locations produce a worse points-per-possession outcome than the three key scoring areas on the floor: at the rim, behind the 3-point line, and at the free throw line.

 

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13 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Good article

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2015/04/06/big-men-center-position-rudy-gobert-marc-gasol-andrew-bogut/70760658/

...

How many times have seen Gasol get stripped in the paint because he is trying to set up for post moves and over dribbles.   Its too easy for defenses now to kill low post scorers now due to the rules change.    

 

And no LA would not give us more at the center spot than Gasol does.  Gasol is better defender, passer, outside shooter, and playmaker.   LA is the better scorer and rebounder.  That is not more.   

Boogie offers the better talent and ability BUT he is a headcase.   As we saw last night this new team cannot handle a headcase of the level of Boogie.  

 

 

 

The NBA still calls "3 seconds" if players are hanging in the lane not guarding anyone. The zone is effective only because fewer big men actually post up, because of the rules change and the lack of a plurality of big men with sufficient low post skills. For all that the article says, it never says that a jump shot or a 3 pointer is a better (read higher percentage) shot that a 2-4 ft. bank shot from a center. That is the crux of my argument. The analytics take into account the reality that the rules changes and the shifting emphasis on athleticism make it such that it is easier to get pick and roll, dribble hand offs, and corner 3's than it is to find a big who has the low post skills to go to work on the block with any comparable efficiency. I don't argue with that. My argument is that for the personnel the Grizz have/had, a slowed down, low post center offense and a elite Defense could keep them competitive, even with out the "unicorns" like Stef Curry and Kevin Durant on the squad.

Yes, Gasol is a very highly skilled basketball player. But having all of those skills rather than elite scoring and rebounding has not proven to yield any real accomplishments for the Grizz; no rings or banners of any sort (not even a divisional title). I would argue that the Grizz need him to be more of a scorer and rebounder. That's why I mentioned LA and Cousins, not because they are necessarily better players than Gasol, but because for what the Grizz lack (scoring and rebounding), they do better than Gasol. I also acknowledge that Cousins would have to come with a vet that he respects to keep him grounded. That is why I really wish they would have traded for Cousins last year, while Z-Bo was still here.  Winning would also do wonders for Cousins.  

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5 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

The NBA still calls "3 seconds" if players are hanging in the lane not guarding anyone. The zone is effective only because fewer big men actually post up, because of the rules change and the lack of a plurality of big men with sufficient low post skills. For all that the article says, it never says that a jump shot or a 3 pointer is a better (read higher percentage) shot that a 2-4 ft. bank shot from a center. That is the crux of my argument. The analytics take into account the reality that the rules changes and the shifting emphasis on athleticism make it such that it is easier to get pick and roll, dribble hand offs, and corner 3's than it is to find a big who has the low post skills to go to work on the block with any comparable efficiency. I don't argue with that. My argument is that for the personnel the Grizz have/had, a slowed down, low post center offense and a elite Defense could keep them competitive, even with out the "unicorns" like Stef Curry and Kevin Durant on the squad.

Yes, Gasol is a very highly skilled basketball player. But having all of those skills rather than elite scoring and rebounding has not proven to yield any real accomplishments for the Grizz; no rings or banners of any sort (not even a divisional title). I would argue that the Grizz need him to be more of a scorer and rebounder. That's why I mentioned LA and Cousins, not because they are necessarily better players than Gasol, but because for what the Grizz lack (scoring and rebounding), they do better than Gasol. I also acknowledge that Cousins would have to come with a vet that he respects to keep him grounded. That is why I really wish they would have traded for Cousins last year, while Z-Bo was still here.  Winning would also do wonders for Cousins.  

No they need a player to pair with Gasol. I’m which this year they have a whole team surrounding him when healthy which makes up for it. 

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