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GrizzTigerFan

Stat Check - Early Look at the Numbers

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Looking at early season numbers (5 games in) and the numbers "bear" out the performances 

http://stats.nba.com/team/1610612763/players-traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season

Not surprisingly the best +/- guys are the reserves.  

Brooks +5.8

Reke + 5.2

Rio +5.2

Parsons +4.8

Marc + 4.2

Mike + 3.8

Ennis + 1.8

Wright + 0.4

Jam 0

Jarell -.0.2

Drew -.4.0

Surprisingly here are the 3pt %

Parsons 50% on 2.5att

Reke 44.4% on 3.6att

Marc 43.5% on 4.6att

Jarell 36.4% on 2.2att

Mike 33.3% on 7.2att

Rio 25% on 3.2att

Brooks 22.2% on 1.8att

Ennis 20% on 1att

Drew 8.3% on 2.4att

Raise your hand if you thought Tyreke and Parsons would be leading the team in 3pt%!!

 

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i have no idea why people rail on Tyreke so much. Have people watched him play, especially in the NBA. The guy has a skillset that can help teams. He was a horrible 3 pt shooter early in his career but has shot upper 30's a couple of times and last year, he shot 44% from 3 on about 3.5 attempts per game. He's just continuing what he was doing. 

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Yeah I have never liked his game mich, but if his shooting has improved for good then it gives him a different outlook.

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Now on to advanced stats looks

Parsons 98.5Ofrtg    85.4defrtg  +13.1Net

Reke   102.6Ofrtg     91.9defrtg  +10.7.1Net

Rio    100.Ofrtg       91.4defrtg    +8.6Net

Brooks   103.3Ofrtg     95.5defrtg   +7.8Net

Mike   106.1Ofrtg    99.2defrtg    +6.9Net

Marc   103.7Ofrtg    97.0defrtg   +6.7Net

Jarell  107.3Ofrtg   104.6defrtg    +2.8Net

Ennis   106.1Orftg    103.3defrtg   +2.7Net

Wright  99.8Ofrtg   102.6defrtg   -2.9Net

Drew   100.3Ofrtg    108.2defrtg    -7.9Net

Raise your hand if you knew that Parsons was going to be second coming of Bruce Bowen!!   Once again eye test and numbers lineup.   Harrison is far and away worst player in rotation.   Bench unit's success can surprisingly be linked  to their strong defense.   

 

 

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Lineup Advanced stats

  • Mike + Drew + Ennis + Jarell + Marc       64mins    97.7ofrtg       100.5defrtg     -2.8Net       93.57PACE
  • Rio +Reke +Brooks + Parsons +Wright    33mins   103.7ofrtg     88.6defrtg      +15.1Net     98.62PACE
  • Mike +  Brooks + Ennis + Jarell + Marc    12mins    124.8ofrtg    104.3defrtg     +20.5Net    97.22PACE

no other samples met double digits.   As we all suspected Starting lineup needs to change and from the looks of it simply removing Harrison is the easiest fix.    Reserve unit is the faster paced unit.  

On/Off Court Numbers (Off)

  • drew      105.3ofrtg   91.8defrtg    +13.5NET
  • ennis     99.5ofrtg     91.0defrtg      +8.5NET
  • Wright  104.9ofrtg    96.5defrtg     + 8.4NET
  • Parson   105.1ofrtg     102.9defrtg     +2.2NET

  • Rio       106.7ofrtg     104.8defrtg      +1.9NET

  • Mike     98.2ofrtg      96.5defrtg       +1.8NET

  • Brooks  103.5ofrtg      101.8defrtg    +1.6NET

  • Marc    102.4ofrtg     101.9defrtg   +0.5NET

  • Reke     104.1ofrtg     104.2defrtg     -0.1NET

Running theme is removing Drew easiest fix to all problems.  Surprisingly Reke highest positive impact player.  

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44 minutes ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

i have no idea why people rail on Tyreke so much. Have people watched him play, especially in the NBA. The guy has a skillset that can help teams. He was a horrible 3 pt shooter early in his career but has shot upper 30's a couple of times and last year, he shot 44% from 3 on about 3.5 attempts per game. He's just continuing what he was doing. 

+1000

Tyreke is basically a modern version of Zbo for the second unit.   If we want to compete with the big boys then we need a player like Reke.

39 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Yeah I have never liked his game mich, but if his shooting has improved for good then it gives him a different outlook.

His ability will pay dividends even more in the playoffs when the game slows down and we need creators.   Mike + Marc + Rio + Parsons + Reke + Brooks abilities and BBIQ will translate well then.  

The fact that his defense has also improved along with his outside shot should be scary to the competition.    if he can be consistent all year then i see no reason why we don't try to lock him up long term.      Tyreke is the reason why i wanted Lance Stephenson and had hope for Harrison.   I knew that having a combo with a strong frame, size to guard multiple positions, and can get to the lane at will is important for the new nba.     But Lance is basically just a poor man's Tyreke with lower BBIQ.    Harrison is just a poor homeless disabled man's Lance Stepehenson with less skill.     Nothing like the real thing!     If Reke was developed in right system and in a winning culture his potential was always James Harden level.  Unfortunately injuries and team situations changed that. 

Fizdale is the right coach for Reke and hopefully Ben as well.  Those two dudes are immensely talented so it was always insane to me that fans undervalued them. 

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55 minutes ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

i have no idea why people rail on Tyreke so much. Have people watched him play, especially in the NBA. The guy has a skillset that can help teams. He was a horrible 3 pt shooter early in his career but has shot upper 30's a couple of times and last year, he shot 44% from 3 on about 3.5 attempts per game. He's just continuing what he was doing. 

He is like an offensive tony allen. What i am saying is, imagine in your mind all of the trick or treat sides to tony allen and apply it to tyreke.

Yeah looks amazing on offense when his shot falls, but what i see is a guy that dribbles for 10 shot clock seconds, no passing and then pulls up for a shot.

If you like that, but you hated tony allens trick or treat side, then you just forgive stupidity as long as the player is offensive-minded rather than defensive-minded.

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24 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

He is like an offensive tony allen. What i am saying is, imagine in your mind all of the trick or treat sides to tony allen and apply it to tyreke.

Yeah looks amazing on offense when his shot falls, but what i see is a guy that dribbles for 10 shot clock seconds, no passing and then pulls up for a shot.

If you like that, but you hated tony allens trick or treat side, then you just forgive stupidity as long as the player is offensive-minded rather than defensive-minded.

Ok, he' s not perfect. How many NBA players are? My thing is, he's a scorer best utilized by coming in and giving us a scoring punch. You learn how to get the most out of the good that he gives you and try to minimize the bad. i have said this numerous times on this board but if you look at recent 6MOY winners and candidates, most of them are 1 dimensional scorers,not all but most. Reke has averaged about 5 assists and 5 rebounds per game for his career in addition to being a scorer. His assists are down so far with us but his rebounding and scoring is right where I expect it based upon his minutes. i have said this numerous times too, if you look at Reke's per 40 min production, he has been really consistent his entire career, so you know what you get.

As a 6th man coming off of the  bench to score, I'll deal with is flaws. It's not like we have anybody else stepping up to score after Mike and Marc. Right now, he is the 3rd leading scorer on the team, 3rd in PER (well, JaM is technically but he played 4 minutes), second leader rebounder on the team and he is shooting 44% from 3 and this is on a minutes restriction, i believe due to him injuring his ankle in the preseason.

Why would people complain and criticize him? It's not like I love his game or anything but he's clearly the best contributor to this team after Mike and Marc right now. It's been a positive so far through 5 games. 

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32 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

What i am saying is, imagine in your mind all of the trick or treat sides to tony allen and apply it to tyreke.

Trick or Treat 2.0

I can see that.

I loved TA's game for what it was and knew that you had to accept the ubiquitous tricks for expected treats.

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25 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

He is like an offensive tony allen. What i am saying is, imagine in your mind all of the trick or treat sides to tony allen and apply it to tyreke.

Yeah looks amazing on offense when his shot falls, but what i see is a guy that dribbles for 10 shot clock seconds, no passing and then pulls up for a shot.

If you like that, but you hated tony allens trick or treat side, then you just forgive stupidity as long as the player is offensive-minded rather than defensive-minded.

What games are you watching to think Reke and TA are a good comp?   The only comp he has from our past years team is Zbo. 

Iso-ball same criticism can be levied at mike too whenever he is playing the 2.  However, key difference right now is that Reke is actually producing.   

Nobody is perfect and we are paying dude 3m to be a 6th man.   Dude is proving to be a huge positive factor in our 4-1 start and folks still complaining. 

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23 minutes ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

It's not like we have anybody else stepping up to score after Mike and Marc.

That is why Parson's injury, and Ben's as well, hurt so much....

It is also why I am (was) more optimistic about this season. Mike and Marc are doing just about (maybe more) than what I expected. Reke is coming along nicely with scoring off he bench. The team just needs that 3rd, consistent scoring punch in the starting lineup.

 

I'm pretty sure Harrison will also look better (even if he stayed in the starting lineup) if there was another potent offensive threat alongside Mike and Marc. Come January, once Ben has about 15 games starting under his belt, I think Harrison won't look so bad when he moves back to the role that he should play. For this team, he is a D guy, safety valve and secondary ballhandler. An off-set if you will. In an 8-9 man playoff rotation, he is a 10th man at best. But that is Ok, cause even they have good value as long as you don't expect them to be the team hero.  Think more along the lines of John Paxson, circa 1993.

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Tyreke really just had issues where his game didn't fit in certain offenses. He was better suited either off the bench as a 6th man or as the primary ball handler in the starting lineup. He will thrive more in a more spread offense, which is why he seems to be working out thus far. He does have a tendency to pound the ball a lot, but that just comes with how ball dominant he is.

Like GTF mentioned, he's our guard version of Zbo. However, he's been better on the defensive end thus far. We never had a guy of his caliber on our team and its refreshing to have especially late in games when you want Conley to go into scoring mode. Considering he's playing for a new contract, we may see Tyreke have one of his better seasons as long as he stays healthy. 

One thing that's been helpful is that one of our wings tend to have a good game each night. Whether its Tyreke, Brooks, Ennis, Chalmers, etc. It would be nice to have a that consistent 3rd guy, which I'm still hoping can be Parsons. But, not going to put too much hope into it. 

Good look on the numbers GTF. I've been keeping track on them, but never thought to post. 

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23 minutes ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

 

Reke is here to be a scorer. I wouldn't want him on the starting unit. The bench would just collapse. Martin and Harrison give you nothing, they are placeholders in the starting unit to take up space, get fouls and hopefully get some occasional production out of. Ennis really has to step up his game. He played well against GS and Houston but has been nonexistent in the other games. He really needs to avg double digits for us to compete every night.  

I prefer bringing Reke off of the bench to give us a scoring spark. This argument has happened year after year on this board as to why not start someone who is a better scorer so that you can have all of your scorers in the starting lineup. I don't agree with that, they don't always mesh well. Not only that, but our bench will be at a deficit. Reke is most effective when he is a dominant ballhandler and I am fine with that on the second unit, not on the first unit. We have even seen him handle the ball a lot with both Chalmers and Conley on the floor with him. 

Moved your quote here ODK hope you don't mind!  

After looking at the numbers again and the way we are playing I am not so sure i think Reke's best use is starting unit.   Evans and Conley actually play extremely well together according to the lineup data.

http://stats.nba.com/team/1610612763/lineups-advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

Top five 2 man units 

  • Ennis + Evans     34mins   117.1ofrtg   89.2defrtg    +27.9NET
  • Mike + Evans      44mins   112.7ofrtg    88.6defrtg    +24.0NET
  • Rio + Parsons    52mins    103.9ofrtg    82.0defrtg    +21.9NET
  • Mike +Rio           40mins    108.2ofrtg    87.5defrtg    +20.7NET
  • Evans +Marc     55mins    104.7ofrtg     85.1defrtg    +19.6NET

 

You know what this shows me.   That Reke could work just fine as the starter.     Remember that originally Parsons was supposed to be that 3rd scorer and secondary playmaker in the starting lineup.  His injury destroyed that so adjustments have been made.  Now that Parsons is going to be on the reserve unit why can't we promote Reke to starter (after restriction is over).    Reke literally provides the same skillset which is why his numbers look so good with Conley and Gasol.   Putting him with the starters makes it an easier fit with non-scorers like Ennis and JaMyke.    I believe a Mike + Reke + Ennis + JaM+ Gasol lineup will be the most balanced lineup we have fielded in years.  

Dwash also made a good point about the under-utilization of Parsons and how that can become a detriment in the long run.     The numbers also show that Rio + Parsons or Parsons + Brooks are huge net positives too.    Taking away Reke from second unit allows Parsons to have more on-ball responsibility.    Parsons and Rio are also more likely to run PickNRolls with Brandan and keep the ball moving.   Rio + Wayne or Ben + Brooks + Parsons + Wright is also a better balanced unit and allows everyone to play to their strengths.  

Something to think about in the near future. 

 

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11 minutes ago, BHZMAFIA said:

Tyreke really just had issues where his game didn't fit in certain offenses. He was better suited either off the bench as a 6th man or as the primary ball handler in the starting lineup. He will thrive more in a more spread offense, which is why he seems to be working out thus far. He does have a tendency to pound the ball a lot, but that just comes with how ball dominant he is.

Like GTF mentioned, he's our guard version of Zbo. However, he's been better on the defensive end thus far. We never had a guy of his caliber on our team and its refreshing to have especially late in games when you want Conley to go into scoring mode. Considering he's playing for a new contract, we may see Tyreke have one of his better seasons as long as he stays healthy. 

One thing that's been helpful is that one of our wings tend to have a good game each night. Whether its Tyreke, Brooks, Ennis, Chalmers, etc. It would be nice to have a that consistent 3rd guy, which I'm still hoping can be Parsons. But, not going to put too much hope into it. 

Good look on the numbers GTF. I've been keeping track on them, but never thought to post. 

You realize that zbo was considered the best power foward in the game back in 2011. And was a perennial top 5 player at his position who single handedly won playoff games for us. That guy couldnt hold zbos jock strap.

But i do agree that his mindless pullups are the equivalent of zbo going 1 on 5.

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8 minutes ago, BHZMAFIA said:

Tyreke really just had issues where his game didn't fit in certain offenses. He was better suited either off the bench as a 6th man or as the primary ball handler in the starting lineup. He will thrive more in a more spread offense, which is why he seems to be working out thus far. He does have a tendency to pound the ball a lot, but that just comes with how ball dominant he is.

Like GTF mentioned, he's our guard version of Zbo. However, he's been better on the defensive end thus far. We never had a guy of his caliber on our team and its refreshing to have especially late in games when you want Conley to go into scoring mode. Considering he's playing for a new contract, we may see Tyreke have one of his better seasons as long as he stays healthy. 

One thing that's been helpful is that one of our wings tend to have a good game each night. Whether its Tyreke, Brooks, Ennis, Chalmers, etc. It would be nice to have a that consistent 3rd guy, which I'm still hoping can be Parsons. But, not going to put too much hope into it. 

Good look on the numbers GTF. I've been keeping track on them, but never thought to post. 

The reason i am re-evaluating starting Evans instead of him being relegated to 6th man is due to how Conley is being used as a starter.   Right now Harrison is basically the primary ball-handler anyway.  If the unit is going to use Conley off the ball then what is holding Tyreke back from being a starter?? 

Reke also has the size to play SF which gives us additional flexibility for the 2nd wing spot with starters.   Meaning all we need out of that person will be 3pt shooting and defense.    Ennis is better defender but Ben more prolific 3pt shooter.    When Jam comes back defense will get stronger regardless so Ennis will not be as needed to start.   

Man once Jam and Ben come back and Reke and Parsons minutes restrictions go away.  That will spell trouble for most teams. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

You realize that zbo was considered the best power foward in the game back in 2011. And was a perennial top 5 player at his position who single handedly won playoff games for us. That guy couldnt hold zbos jock strap.

But i do agree that his mindless pullups are the equivalent of zbo going 1 on 5.

 

What Zbo did 6 years ago has nothing to do with his role over the last 2 or even 3 years with this team. Zbo was more so an inefficient post scorer who struggled defensively over the last 2-3 years. Yet, he was best utilized coming off the bench and being that scoring punch we needed.

This is why Tyreke is comparable because his way of scoring the basketball isn't necessarily the most efficient way (unless he's able to keep up his spot %'s and finish around the rim at a higher %). You don't necessarily want a guy like Tyreke starting, but off the bench he's perfect. Same scenario with Zach. 

Don't try to compare what I said to who Zbo was 6 years ago. The comparison has nothing to do with that. If that's all you got out of that, I'll stop the conversation now.

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21 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

The reason i am re-evaluating starting Evans instead of him being relegated to 6th man is due to how Conley is being used as a starter.   Right now Harrison is basically the primary ball-handler anyway.  If the unit is going to use Conley off the ball then what is holding Tyreke back from being a starter?? 

Reke also has the size to play SF which gives us additional flexibility for the 2nd wing spot with starters.   Meaning all we need out of that person will be 3pt shooting and defense.    Ennis is better defender but Ben more prolific 3pt shooter.    When Jam comes back defense will get stronger regardless so Ennis will not be as needed to start.   

Man once Jam and Ben come back and Reke and Parsons minutes restrictions go away.  That will spell trouble for most teams. 

I think its in this team's best interest to keep their bench unit together for as long as its working or more injuries occur. 

If its not broke don't fix it is my approach with the bench. We are going to have to wait and see if Ben/Selden are the answer at SG before we start discussing moving some of our bench guys into the starting lineup.

I'm a firm believer in Fizdale putting the right guys in when needed. Tyreke or Chalmers can just become the first subs off the bench to pair one of them with Conley early on in the 1Q. I honestly feel like Conley has been struggling more in game starts playing more off the ball. Part of that is due to Harrison's inability to make quicker decisions and be a threat offensively and I think some of it is due to familiarity. 

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1 hour ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

Ok, he' s not perfect. How many NBA players are? My thing is, he's a scorer best utilized by coming in and giving us a scoring punch. You learn how to get the most out of the good that he gives you and try to minimize the bad. i have said this numerous times on this board but if you look at recent 6MOY winners and candidates, most of them are 1 dimensional scorers,not all but most. Reke has averaged about 5 assists and 5 rebounds per game for his career in addition to being a scorer. His assists are down so far with us but his rebounding and scoring is right where I expect it based upon his minutes. i have said this numerous times too, if you look at Reke's per 40 min production, he has been really consistent his entire career, so you know what you get.

As a 6th man coming off of the  bench to score, I'll deal with is flaws. It's not like we have anybody else stepping up to score after Mike and Marc. Right now, he is the 3rd leading scorer on the team, 3rd in PER (well, JaM is technically but he played 4 minutes), second leader rebounder on the team and he is shooting 44% from 3 and this is on a minutes restriction, i believe due to him injuring his ankle in the preseason.

Why would people complain and criticize him? It's not like I love his game or anything but he's clearly the best contributor to this team after Mike and Marc right now. It's been a positive so far through 5 games. 

Exactly. Nobody is saying Tyreke is MVP of the league or even our team. But geez who on our team are we getting more bang for the buck from? Maybe Brooks and that's it. Tyreke has been amazing compared to expectations (which were that he might be squeezed out of rotation by Mclemore and Selden, or might be a one-dimensional slasher)

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6 minutes ago, BHZMAFIA said:

 

What Zbo did 6 years ago has nothing to do with his role over the last 2 or even 3 years with this team. Zbo was more so an inefficient post scorer who struggled defensively over the last 2-3 years. Yet, he was best utilized coming off the bench and being that scoring punch we needed.

This is why Tyreke is comparable because his way of scoring the basketball isn't necessarily the most efficient way (unless he's able to keep up his spot %'s and finish around the rim at a higher %). You don't necessarily want a guy like Tyreke starting, but off the bench he's perfect. Same scenario with Zach. 

Don't try to compare what I said to who Zbo was 6 years ago. The comparison has nothing to do with that. If that's all you got out of that, I'll stop the conversation now.

My thing is will anybody want to play with him after 10 games of the tyreke show. Last night, after tyreke missed his 3rd pull up in 3 times down the court, fizz ordered chalmers to carry the ball up.

Nobody likes a ball hog, thats why new Orleans was glad to see him go.

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31 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

The reason i am re-evaluating starting Evans instead of him being relegated to 6th man is due to how Conley is being used as a starter.   Right now Harrison is basically the primary ball-handler anyway.  If the unit is going to use Conley off the ball then what is holding Tyreke back from being a starter?? 

Reke also has the size to play SF which gives us additional flexibility for the 2nd wing spot with starters.   Meaning all we need out of that person will be 3pt shooting and defense.    Ennis is better defender but Ben more prolific 3pt shooter.    When Jam comes back defense will get stronger regardless so Ennis will not be as needed to start.   

Man once Jam and Ben come back and Reke and Parsons minutes restrictions go away.  That will spell trouble for most teams. 

 

The starting lineup has our worst offensive rotation player be our primary ballhandler and initiatior while our best offensive player, initiator, and ballhandler plays off ball and doesn't get good looks or involved as much.

 

I mean, it seems so silly when I write it.

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12 minutes ago, BHZMAFIA said:

If its not broke don't fix it is my approach with the bench. We are going to have to wait and see if Ben/Selden are the answer at SG before we start discussing moving some of our bench guys into the starting lineup.

I'm a firm believer in Fizdale putting the right guys in when needed. Tyreke or Chalmers can just become the first subs off the bench to pair one of them with Conley early on in the 1Q. I honestly feel like Conley has been struggling more in game starts playing more off the ball. Part of that is due to Harrison's inability to make quicker decisions and be a threat offensively and I think some of it is due to familiarity. 

it's because it's Harrison running the offense. He's not getting us into plays and can't make quick decisions or break down players off the pick and roll, and if he does usually can't finish,

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23 minutes ago, Grizzfan7979 said:

The starting lineup has our worst offensive rotation player be our primary ballhandler and initiatior while our best offensive player, initiator, and ballhandler plays off ball and doesn't get good looks or involved as much.

 

I mean, it seems so silly when I write it.

That is insane isn't it.   I know why Fiz is doing it - its the same reason why he tried to have Tony handle the ball more.    Basically it forced defenses to atleast acknowledge Harrion/TA presence on the floor.   While using Conley's offense to offset their lack of production.   But Harrison is such a poor PG that all it does is completely muck up pace and offense anyway. 

I hope when Wayne or ben comes back that Conley goes back to being primary ball-handler for starting unit.  Play him off the ball when pairing him with Reke or Rio.  

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2 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Lineup Advanced stats

  • Mike + Drew + Ennis + Jarell + Marc       64mins    97.7ofrtg       100.5defrtg     -2.8Net       93.57PACE
  • Rio +Reke +Brooks + Parsons +Wright    33mins   103.7ofrtg     88.6defrtg      +15.1Net     98.62PACE
  • Mike +  Brooks + Ennis + Jarell + Marc    12mins    124.8ofrtg    104.3defrtg     +20.5Net    97.22PACE

no other samples met double digits.   As we all suspected Starting lineup needs to change and from the looks of it simply removing Harrison is the easiest fix.    Reserve unit is the faster paced unit.  

On/Off Court Numbers (Off)

  • drew      105.3ofrtg   91.8defrtg    +13.5NET
  • ennis     99.5ofrtg     91.0defrtg      +8.5NET
  • Wright  104.9ofrtg    96.5defrtg     + 8.4NET
  • Parson   105.1ofrtg     102.9defrtg     +2.2NET

  • Rio       106.7ofrtg     104.8defrtg      +1.9NET

  • Mike     98.2ofrtg      96.5defrtg       +1.8NET

  • Brooks  103.5ofrtg      101.8defrtg    +1.6NET

  • Marc    102.4ofrtg     101.9defrtg   +0.5NET

  • Reke     104.1ofrtg     104.2defrtg     -0.1NET

Running theme is removing Drew easiest fix to all problems.  Surprisingly Reke highest positive impact player.  

Were you not one of the people on board with AH starting during the summer, all for the sake of playing Conley off-ball?

I'm glad you've finally seen the light, but this is why forcing the off the ball stuff was a bad idea: Taking the ball out of Mike's hands, and giving the ball to inferior players. Fiz should take notes on how the Warriors utilize Curry away from the ball.

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