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notnilc20

Houston Rockets @ Memphis Grizzlies PRESEASON gm.4

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2 hours ago, LuvThem Grizzlies said:

Because they gave up money they could've used to try to get some better players. A 30 MILLION dollar player should be able to carry the team on his back, Conley can't do that.

So what exactly would you have done?

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18 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

How did we have worse personnel?

For the type of defense Fiz wanted to play.    Even more hobbled Parsons and cement foot Zbo were getting major minutes.  Especially the fact that Zbo was getting most of minutes for a long time at Center.    Being able to play Wright or even Davis is a huge upgrade to that plus having even more switchable guys on defense in the rotation.   

I also think Team defense will be better because Tony won't be disrupting it with his gambling. 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

For the type of defense Fiz wanted to play.    Even more hobbled Parsons and cement foot Zbo were getting major minutes.  Especially the fact that Zbo was getting most of minutes for a long time at Center.    Being able to play Wright or even Davis is a huge upgrade to that plus having even more switchable guys on defense in the rotation.   

I also think Team defense will be better because Tony won't be disrupting it with his gambling. 

This is pretty close to my thinking as well. Defensively, the only loss this summer was Tony Allen. Zach Randolph was straight up unplayable defensively. So, the questions this roster has defensively are: 1) How do you replace (not replicate) Tony Allen on the wing (SG/SF)? 2) What does the power forward position look like (Question 2b. is rebounding)? and, probably the most important question of all, 3) Defensive culture (can you maintain true Grit and Grind, without the emotional heart and soul leader)? 

I think the roster is actually fine when it comes to questions 1 and 2. The 2 position will be a drop off, almost without question, but particularly against ball-dominant wing scorers. However, as I've argued before, the ball-dominant wing scorer is a special case, and while we're losing defensive prowess there, as you noted, we may actually be gaining some in defensive discipline against disciplined, modern offense.  At the 2, Selden is big enough, athletic enough, and knows his role and is willing to play it. I hope he's on the final roster, because he makes a lot of sense in terms of making sure the team can defend the wings. McLemore as the starter when he returns remains to be seen, but he is super athletic and has the tools to be a good defender. At the 3, Ennis is an athlete and is a pretty respectable, if maybe just league average, 3-and-D wing. But he's not a liability defensively. Behind him it seems like the roster is still being sorted. At the 4, JaMychal Green is an above-average defender at the position - really quick laterally and can get off of his feet with good timing to contest and block shots. He is a great defensive anchor to have alongside Marc. I'm looking for him to have a pretty big season defensively. Behind him, there are a lot of questions, so we'll just have to see what gets sorted here. I will say, though, that I believe Jarrell Martin is equipped athletically to be a good stretch-4-type defender. And, although he doesn't have the length to be a big time rim protector, he does have the leaping and the timing to routinely make some great blocks.

 

Rebounding. This is a big outstanding question for this roster. The Grizzlies have struggled in the past with faster, more athletic teams in many ways, but one of the principal ways was on the boards. I learned to dread the teams that were full of tweeners or the small ball lineups, well before the Warriors turned into the Championship juggernaut they are now. The Randolph-Gasol due ALWAYS struggled to win the rebounding battle against teams that featured quickness, mobility, and leaping. 

So, we lose Randolph, but if you listen to everything Wallace and Fizzdale have said, they clearly think they are addressing team rebounding by attempting to upgrade their speed and athleticism. They see those things as interrelated. It's not just about having a double-digit rebound gobbling post player, it's about everyone being able to compete for rebounds as a team. I definitely think this is an open question, because I don't, for example, see Ben McLemore as making a difference on the boards. In fact, losing Tony Allen almost certainly means losing a lot of rebounding at that position. But, I do basically buy the argument that, in terms of overall team rebounding, a faster, longer, higher jumping, more athletic roster can make up for a lot, if not all, of what was lost. I think, actually, the biggest loss will be in offensive rebounding. And we might see these guys losing the second-chance points battle a lot more than we're used to seeing the boys in Grizzlies uniforms doing.

 

Culture. This is the true x-factor: Whether the Grizzlies can indeed continue to embody Grit and Grind, without the Grindfather. We will see. It's much easier to say the words, than it is to dig in and pour your heart out on the floor when the going gets tough. 

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2 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

So what exactly would you have done?

I would have let him go somewhere else. I'm beginning to believe Wallace isn't much of a GM to pay a person like Parsons 94M. 73.5M for 3 bodies. There were some good young players let go this year but they have no money to sign them with.

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8 hours ago, Herodotus said:

This is pretty close to my thinking as well. Defensively, the only loss this summer was Tony Allen. Zach Randolph was straight up unplayable defensively. So, the questions this roster has defensively are: 1) How do you replace (not replicate) Tony Allen on the wing (SG/SF)? 2) What does the power forward position look like (Question 2b. is rebounding)? and, probably the most important question of all, 3) Defensive culture (can you maintain true Grit and Grind, without the emotional heart and soul leader)? 

I think the roster is actually fine when it comes to questions 1 and 2. The 2 position will be a drop off, almost without question, but particularly against ball-dominant wing scorers. However, as I've argued before, the ball-dominant wing scorer is a special case, and while we're losing defensive prowess there, as you noted, we may actually be gaining some in defensive discipline against disciplined, modern offense.  At the 2, Selden is big enough, athletic enough, and knows his role and is willing to play it. I hope he's on the final roster, because he makes a lot of sense in terms of making sure the team can defend the wings. McLemore as the starter when he returns remains to be seen, but he is super athletic and has the tools to be a good defender. At the 3, Ennis is an athlete and is a pretty respectable, if maybe just league average, 3-and-D wing. But he's not a liability defensively. Behind him it seems like the roster is still being sorted. At the 4, JaMychal Green is an above-average defender at the position - really quick laterally and can get off of his feet with good timing to contest and block shots. He is a great defensive anchor to have alongside Marc. I'm looking for him to have a pretty big season defensively. Behind him, there are a lot of questions, so we'll just have to see what gets sorted here. I will say, though, that I believe Jarrell Martin is equipped athletically to be a good stretch-4-type defender. And, although he doesn't have the length to be a big time rim protector, he does have the leaping and the timing to routinely make some great blocks.

 

Rebounding. This is a big outstanding question for this roster. The Grizzlies have struggled in the past with faster, more athletic teams in many ways, but one of the principal ways was on the boards. I learned to dread the teams that were full of tweeners or the small ball lineups, well before the Warriors turned into the Championship juggernaut they are now. The Randolph-Gasol due ALWAYS struggled to win the rebounding battle against teams that featured quickness, mobility, and leaping. 

So, we lose Randolph, but if you listen to everything Wallace and Fizzdale have said, they clearly think they are addressing team rebounding by attempting to upgrade their speed and athleticism. They see those things as interrelated. It's not just about having a double-digit rebound gobbling post player, it's about everyone being able to compete for rebounds as a team. I definitely think this is an open question, because I don't, for example, see Ben McLemore as making a difference on the boards. In fact, losing Tony Allen almost certainly means losing a lot of rebounding at that position. But, I do basically buy the argument that, in terms of overall team rebounding, a faster, longer, higher jumping, more athletic roster can make up for a lot, if not all, of what was lost. I think, actually, the biggest loss will be in offensive rebounding. And we might see these guys losing the second-chance points battle a lot more than we're used to seeing the boys in Grizzlies uniforms doing.

 

Culture. This is the true x-factor: Whether the Grizzlies can indeed continue to embody Grit and Grind, without the Grindfather. We will see. It's much easier to say the words, than it is to dig in and pour your heart out on the floor when the going gets tough. 

Well said and I agree 100%.  I truly believe fans are severely underestimating the value of having a team with more quickness, athleticism and mobility.   Having BWright healthy and Zbo gone, by itself, will translate to better defense.

Fizdale commented last year during the time Marc was playing solo with a bunch of young guys and we were still winning.  That a major reason why was because of the young legs playing defense.   Once the vets came back the defense faltered.  

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3 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Well said and I agree 100%.  I truly believe fans are severely underestimating the value of having a team with more quickness, athleticism and mobility.   Having BWright healthy and Zbo gone, by itself, will translate to better defense.

Fizdale commented last year during the time Marc was playing solo with a bunch of young guys and we were still winning.  That a major reason why was because of the young legs playing defense.   Once the vets came back the defense faltered.  

How long can we expect BWright to remain healthy? 

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20 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

How long can we expect BWright to remain healthy? 

Good question but on the bright side this time DD is actually healthy. He may not have the BBIQ but he is a rim-protector. 

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Just now, GrizzTigerFan said:

Good question but on the bright side this time DD is actually healthy. He may not have the BBIQ but he is a rim-protector. 

Until he fouls out. 

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9 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Well said and I agree 100%.  I truly believe fans are severely underestimating the value of having a team with more quickness, athleticism and mobility.   Having BWright healthy and Zbo gone, by itself, will translate to better defense.

Fizdale commented last year during the time Marc was playing solo with a bunch of young guys and we were still winning.  That a major reason why was because of the young legs playing defense.   Once the vets came back the defense faltered.  

I don't get it. Herodotus says that having an athletic, younger, longer team will make up for the rebounding  the Grizz lost in Z-Bo and TA, yet he admits that they will lose rebounding in BMac and they will lose the O rebounding battle more? It seems like to me the athleticism will not make up for the loss in rebounding, according to his own analysis. He also says that the younger legs will create more elite D and that Z-Bo was "unplayable" on D. Yet in both of their losses in pre-season (I know its preseason) they gave up over 100 points. When they were truly a D first team, their goal was to limit other teams to 20 points/qtr. Now, 100pts/gm is "elite D"?  

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Just now, chipc3 said:

Until he fouls out. 

He should still be able to give us 15mins before that happens.  Which is all Gasol really needs. Geez man who pi$$ed in your cornflakes?  You have been exceptionally negative this offseason. 

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1 minute ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

He should still be able to give us 15mins before that happens.  Which is all Gasol really needs. Geez man who pi$$ed in your cornflakes?  You have been exceptionally negative this offseason. 

I'm being honest. DD isn't ready. BWright is a major injury risk. Parsons is a major disappointment. Ben MC is injured with a broken bone in his foot, Conley and Gasol have to improve on their career best years for the Grizzlies to remain a 7th or 8th seed. Fizdale is forcing a style of play on the team that they really aren't well suited to play unless numerous players dramatically improve. 

Like I keep saying I hope I am wrong but the even you have to admit there is a lot of smoke around this team. Just because there is smoke doesn't mean there is a fire but that's usually is the outcome. 

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Does GTF work for the Grizz? He is making a concerted effort to ignore the obvious about this roster, that the talent is waning and the injury bug is too great to seriously consider this team a true contender for even the playoffs, much less a ring. This team did not get better in the offseason by letting Z-Bo and TA walk for nothing, and adding BMac and Reke didn't make up for losing them. Also, the Parsons signing has crippled this team and not trading Gasol for more talent will prove to be fatal. Acknowledging the obvious is not being a negative "ninny" and downing players, its being realistic and not brown-nosing the front office. Unless one of the young players/rookies steps up to be an alpha scorer and the team finds a D scheme that doesn't involve running Gasol up and down the court all nite, it's gonna be a long season.  

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1 minute ago, Blackwatch said:

I don't get it. Herodotus says that having an athletic, younger, longer team will make up for the rebounding  the Grizz lost in Z-Bo and TA, yet he admits that they will lose rebounding in BMac and they will lose the O rebounding battle more? It seems like to me the athleticism will not make up for the loss in rebounding, according to his own analysis. He also says that the younger legs will create more elite D and that Z-Bo was "unplayable" on D. Yet in both of their losses in pre-season (I know its preseason) they gave up over 100 points. When they were truly a D first team, their goal was to limit other teams to 20 points/qtr. Now, 100pts/gm is "elite D"?  

Rewatch the first half of the last game.   That was basically the real starting unit but with Harrison instead of Seldon.   

They gave high-octane HOU fits on offense.  It wasn't until the experimental lineups came in did the wheels fall off on defense. 

Also go back and watch preseason action from previous seasons and look at the defensive performance.   

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2 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Rewatch the first half of the last game.   That was basically the real starting unit but with Harrison instead of Seldon.   

They gave high-octane HOU fits on offense.  It wasn't until the experimental lineups came in did the wheels fall off on defense. 

Also go back and watch preseason action from previous seasons and look at the defensive performance.   

Seems like somebody is putting a lot of faith in pre-season games which rarely translate into the regular season. 

But look on the bright side. If what Blackwatch says is true, then we can always follow GTF's advice and go back and watch the preseason games. :)

 

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21 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Rewatch the first half of the last game.   That was basically the real starting unit but with Harrison instead of Seldon.   

They gave high-octane HOU fits on offense.  It wasn't until the experimental lineups came in did the wheels fall off on defense. 

Also go back and watch preseason action from previous seasons and look at the defensive performance.   

I admitted they played the Fizz style for a qtr and looked good. But also, CP3 and the Beard weren't hitting shots. That may have been D, but those shots were pretty wide open.  The 2nd half, CP3 hit a couple of shots and immediately, the Grizz lost the lead and never sniffed it again. Also, they were winded after the 1st qtr, and so either Fizz will have to have a pretty deep rotation (and it doesn't look like Reke has bought into the system yet), or figure out a way to slow the pace down.

Also, the Grizz traded Daniels. Where is the shooting gonna come from? Their best shooter is a streaky Conley at this point. Parsons can't get any lift on his jumper anymore. Gasol shot looked way off (but he needs to stop taking so many outside shots now anyway), and no body else on the roster will be hitting from the outside with any consistency worth mentioning. This team just doesn't have the firepower to compete in the West.

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9 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I'm being honest. DD isn't ready. BWright is a major injury risk. Parsons is a major disappointment. Ben MC is injured with a broken bone in his foot, Conley and Gasol have to improve on their career best years for the Grizzlies to remain a 7th or 8th seed. Fizdale is forcing a style of play on the team that they really aren't well suited to play unless numerous players dramatically improve. 

Like I keep saying I hope I am wrong but the even you have to admit there is a lot of smoke around this team. Just because there is smoke doesn't mean there is a fire but that's usually is the outcome. 

Nah you don't hope you are wrong you are more likely hoping I am wrong.  All you and Blackwatch keep harping on are the negatives.  Apparently a lot of butthurtness because your favorite players are gone.   This is also an effort by you to be able to say "See i told you so" at the end of the season.   

There are negatives every season for the Grizz since their inception - hence why we don't have a championship.     I am being optimistic because a lot of the moves made are what i have been wanting for years.   

I wanted more youth - check!

i wanted to move on from Zbo/TA - check!

I wanted to unchain Conley - check!

I wanted a new coach - check!

I wanted more 3pt shooting - check!

I wanted more athleticism - check!

Also biggest difference in my outlook is that i am fully embracing just being a competitive team versus championship or bust.   i realize Memphis doesn't have the fanbase that can afford to do that.  So it's a waste of energy to keep complaining about it. 

 

Yes there are things i don't like AKA Chandler Parsons and Chris Wallace.  However, i think that will sort itself out soon too.   This is the season when i can fully evaluate Fizdale and Mike and Marc because now it is ALL on them.   That's exciting to me as a Bball fan. 

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5 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

I admitted they played the Fizz style for a qtr and looked good. But also, CPS and the Beard weren't hitting shots. That may have been D, but those shots were pretty wide open.  The 2nd half, CP3 hit a couple of shots and immediately, the Grizz lost the lead and never sniffed it again. Also, they were winded after the 1st qtr, and so either Fizz will have to have a pretty deep rotation (and it doesn't look like Reke has bought into the system yet), or figure out a way to slow the pace down.

Also, the Grizz traded Daniels. Where is the shooting gonna come from? Their best shooter is a streaky Conley at this point. Parsons can't get any lift on his jumper anymore. Gasol shot looked way off (but he needs to stop taking so many outside shots now anyway), and no body else on the roster will be hitting from the outside with any consistency worth mentioning. This team just doesn't have the firepower to compete in the West.

I guess Ennis has been a complete bum during the preseason and wasn't a .37% 3pt shooter last year.   Ben Mac was a .38% 3pt shooter and we know Conley, Marc, JaMyke, and Rio can hit 3s.   I am not worried about it.   I fully expect them to play a 10 man rotation so fatigue will not be an issue once conditioning returns. 

Plus Conley said, in post-game interview with Peter Edmiston, that defense is all they have worked on during camp defense and he was extremely happy by their performance on that end.   Which should be music to your ears - because that's exactly what Lionel used to do.   but i guess no other coach is capable of having a great defensive team in Memphis.  

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33 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I guess Ennis has been a complete bum during the preseason and wasn't a .37% 3pt shooter last year.   Ben Mac was a .38% 3pt shooter and we know Conley, Marc, JaMyke, and Rio can hit 3s.   I am not worried about it.   I fully expect them to play a 10 man rotation so fatigue will not be an issue once conditioning returns. 

Plus Conley said, in post-game interview with Peter Edmiston, that defense is all they have worked on during camp defense and he was extremely happy by their performance on that end.   Which should be music to your ears - because that's exactly what Lionel used to do.   but i guess no other coach is capable of having a great defensive team in Memphis.  

Are you suggesting that the outside shooting will partly consist of Gasol and J Green hitting 3's? That is a coherent plan going forward, have your starting Power Forward and Center be part of your outside shooting strategy, consistently? While yes, the league now has stretch 4's and point centers and such, Gasol and J Green aren't elite in that regard (heck J Green didn't get a sniff in FA). Conley will get hot once every 2 or 3 weeks, and I haven't seen enough of BMac to make a call on his shooting abilities, but that plan isn't too much different from the Hollins days. That perhaps why Hollins didn't like the 3 point shot, he didn't have the shooters to do it consistently.

My complaint is that , while Z-Bo and TA were not the core around which a championship team would be built in 2017, they were the best options for the Grizz, in terms of being competitive in the West and drawing fans in the arena every night. If you could get better by going away from them, by all means do so. But, this team was not going to get better by letting them walk at this point, as it shows with this roster. They should have retired Grizz. Would they have won a ring at this point? Probably not, but at least they would have put butts in the seats and remained competitive with their style of play, and they would have at least been fun to watch. What the Grizz have now is a roster that is ill suited to play the style that Fizz wants to play, and it showed painfully against the Rockets. When you look at teams like Minnesota, Denver, Utah, and NO, where on this roster can you say they can beat any of those teams?  

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45 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Nah you don't hope you are wrong you are more likely hoping I am wrong.  All you and Blackwatch keep harping on are the negatives.  Apparently a lot of butthurtness because your favorite players are gone.   This is also an effort by you to be able to say "See i told you so" at the end of the season.   

You don't understand me at all if you believe that. Or you are talking about yourself. 

There are negatives every season for the Grizz since their inception - hence why we don't have a championship.     I am being optimistic because a lot of the moves made are what i have been wanting for years.   

I understand that. You need to recognize this is what I have feared for a long time as well. 

I wanted more youth - check!

i wanted to move on from Zbo/TA - check!

I wanted to unchain Conley - check!

I wanted a new coach - check!

I wanted more 3pt shooting - check!

I wanted more athleticism - check!

Also biggest difference in my outlook is that i am fully embracing just being a competitive team versus championship or bust.   i realize Memphis doesn't have the fanbase that can afford to do that.  So it's a waste of energy to keep complaining about it. 

So you have abandoned your ultimate goal for satisfaction with being average after criticizing me for years for being content with competitive? 

Yes there are things i don't like AKA Chandler Parsons and Chris Wallace.  However, i think that will sort itself out soon too.   This is the season when i can fully evaluate Fizdale and Mike and Marc because now it is ALL on them.   That's exciting to me as a Bball fan. 

Just how do you see things working out with Parsons and Wallace? They both got new contracts last summer after all.

 

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3 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

Are you suggesting that Our outside shooting will consist of Gasol and J Green hitting 3's? that is a coherent plan going forward, have you staring Power Forward and Center be part of your outside shooting strategy, consistently? While yes, the league now has stretch 4's and point centers and such, Gasol and J green aren't elite in that regard (heck J Green didn't get a sniff in FA). Conley will get hot once every 2 or 3 weeks, and I haven't seen enough of BMac to make a call on his shooting abilities, but that plan isn't too much different from the Hollins days. That perhaps why Hollins didn't like the 3 point shot, he didn't have the shooters to do it consistently.

Yes i am suggesting that we have enough average to above average 3pt shooters to keep the floor properly spaced.   Why do you keep killing Conley?  I have to assume you didn't watch him last season.  His 3pt shoot is legit and has been legit for like 6 seasons.    We have completely different personnel from what Hollins did and will be playing a completely different style.  Yes if the offensive was crafted around playing two slow traditional bigs and limit outside shooting then we would be in big trouble. 

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14 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

So you have abandoned your ultimate goal for satisfaction with being average after criticizing me for years for being content with competitive?   YES and NO.  I am not abandoning my hope for a championship but after the formation of the superteams it's time to accept reality.    That's why i am now fine with being entertained by us being competitive.    keywords there are competitiveness and entertainment.    GritNGrindCore4 was no longer entertaining to me and was on the precipice of not being competitive. 

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22 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Just how do you see things working out with Parsons and Wallace? They both got new contracts last summer after all.

I see us being stuck with Parsons till he retires or his contract becomes attractive as a cap move for another team.   I see us being stuck with Wallace until Pera is no longer owner.    No rose-colored glasses for me here. 

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11 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Yes i am suggesting that we have enough average to above average 3pt shooters to keep the floor properly spaced.   Why do you keep killing Conley?  I have to assume you didn't watch him last season.  His 3pt shoot is legit and has been legit for like 6 seasons.    We have completely different personnel from what Hollins did and will be playing a completely different style.  Yes if the offensive was crafted around playing two slow traditional bigs and limit outside shooting then we would be in big trouble. 

There is a reason that Conley has not made an All-Star team, he is not consistent enough in his play. Yes, last year was his best, most consistent year. Looking at Conley over the last 5 or so years, he has points in a season where he looks elite, then there are stretches where he looks really tired/beat down and his game is mediocre at best. He'll have a hot shooting nite and "go off" for 25 pts. Then the next 3 games, he'll score 8-13. that's not good enough to carry a competitive team. He is not CP3, Westbrook, Curry, or even Irving, Wall, or IT. In order for this team to be competitive, he has to play on that level. He is a good to great player, but he is not the type to carry a truly competitive team. But he just needs to be the good "Robin" to a great "Batman". Where is the Batman for the Grizz this year?

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2 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

There is a reason that Conley has not made an All-Star team, he is not consistent enough in his play. Yes, last year was his best, most consistent year. Looking at Conley over the last 5 or so years, he has points in a season where he looks elite, then there are stretches where he looks really tired/beat down and his game is mediocre at best. He'll have a hot shooting nite and "go off" for 25 pts. Then the next 3 games, he'll score 8-13. that's not good enough to carry a competitive team. He is not CP3, Westbrook, Curry, or even Irving, Wall, or IT. In order for this team to be competitive, he has to play on that level. He is a good to great player, but he is not the type to carry a truly competitive team. But he just needs to be the good "Robin" to a great "Batman". Where is the Batman for the Grizz this year?

You do realize Conley averaged 20ppg last season, right.   Do you know the last time Zbo did that?    Also Conley does play in the deepest conference and if he was in the East he would've been an AllStar by now too.   

I get it you are upset the team has moved on from Zbo and Tony.   But that doesn't mean it has to be the end of the world and now Conley can't do literally what he did just last season.    Conley is a consensus Top 30 player in the league that means by default he is an AllStar level talent.   Gasol is a multiple time AllStar and DPOY but if you want to believe all there talent was only being held up by Zbo and TA then more power to you. 

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4 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

You do realize Conley averaged 20ppg last season, right.   Do you know the last time Zbo did that?    Also Conley does play in the deepest conference and if he was in the East he would've been an AllStar by now too.   

I get it you are upset the team has moved on from Zbo and Tony.   But that doesn't mean it has to be the end of the world and now Conley can't do literally what he did just last season.    Conley is a consensus Top 30 player in the league that means by default he is an AllStar level talent.   Gasol is a multiple time AllStar and DPOY but if you want to believe all there talent was only being held up by Zbo and TA then more power to you. 

Im threw arguing with people about conley. It is clear that it does not matter what he does anymore.

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