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Memphis Grizzlies @ Atlanta Hawks - PRESEASON- gm.3

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4 hours ago, fanboyslim said:

It's the boredom and the lack of a constant stream of basketball games and news. Once the season starts we'll go back to overreacting to regular season games.

I fell asleep halfway through the 1st quarter so I can't comment. Was Parsons that bad? He didn't look as bad as last season in the previous game.

Ohh, I totally understand that portion about boredom. I get that, but not the analyzing  and overanalyzing. I just don't understand it but that's just me. I would fall asleep during all of SL and preseason.

 

4 hours ago, Ndq0327 said:

You may not be able to make team assessments based off preseason games, but individual player assessments can surely be made off preseason games

4 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Yep no idea why that's difficult for some people to understand.    Wade has been trash every single time we have seen him on the court.  Whether its NBA, Summer League or preseason games.   Its not reaching to make a judgement  that he is far from being an NBA ready player based off all of those assessments. 

3 hours ago, Herodotus said:

 

Exactly. After all, it is precisely what the front office is doing right now. It is also probably the lead story for this team in the media.

 

I really don't agree with that. The only assessment that can be made is if the player is bad. I have been saying on this board for years that if a player can't cut it in SL or preseason then they can't cut it in the regular season but someone playing well in SL or preseason means nothing to me. You have to look at the competition. Many teams are experimenting with lineups, giving rookies a chance, giving players like Martin a last chance to make the team, no one is worried about defense, etc. Too many factors in play to make a fair            assessment.

You have to play several games with something at stake before making an accurate assessment as to whether someone can contribute and what role the can contribute in but yeah, if they are bad in SL and/or preseason, they will suck in the league. 

 

1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

Not really in my opinion. We haven’t seen Conley, Gasol or JaMychal really giving their best effort yet. Reke has played one game so game so far. Rookies are notoriously unsure of themselves. 

And dont forget that the opposing teams are doing the same thing the Grizzlies are. They aren’t giving 100% effort and are playing lineups that will likely never be seen in the regular season. 

Im very wary of making any type of predictions based on pre-season showings both good and bad. 

Agreed.

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36 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

That's fine for you but NBA FO and history says otherwise.   Heck the fact that we have to cut 2 guys by start of season means that FO HAS to make assessments of guys  based off of summer league and preseason.     Judging the outcome of the game itself may be largely counterproductive but evaluating how guys that were injured mobility and young guys ability to play correct scheme is extremely valuable and telling. 

Actually I hope the FO is taking into account pre-season, summer league but most importantly practice. Seeing what they are doing in practice, working on things the team will be trying to accomplish with players around them who will be playing and not basic sets with miss matched lineups against guys playing in the D-League or Europe in November should be the primary determinant in my opinion.

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What has been really irritating about watching this team in the preseason is that there has seemingly been no semblance of what the Grizzlies are supposedly building this team around, and what we saw this team be at its best last season. Specifically, the offense is supposed to be predicated on the Conley-Gasol pick and roll, with those guys looking to score aggressively, and with the pieces around them possessing the necessary skill sets to make a move and score a basket off of the initial pick and roll action. We've only seen VERY brief glimpses of this, and when we have seen it, the right personnel were not on the floor, and it seemed like Conley and Gasol were basically half-#@%ing it. 

McLemore is an excellent addition, because if Conley or Gasol get doubled and need to kick, McLemore is going to knock down a shot, for sure. Ennis, same thing. Ennis and McLemore can shoot, swing, or swing-swing to JaMychal, and all three of them can knock down a three. Also, all three possess the quickness and athleticism to attack closeouts - they can pump, dribble dribble, and either pass or finish. All three of them.

The Conley-Gasol pick and roll offense should be MORE EFFICIENT than ever before. And I don't think that this has been talked about enough. We have our best offensive starting five ever. And, depending on how McLemore comes around, they shouldn't be shabby on defense either. They will also be our most athletic starting five ever.

What isn't making sense is what is supposed to come behind them. Ideally, you have a PG behind Conley who can run a pick and roll, drive, dish, and knock down pull up jumpers off the dribble. Mario Chalmers is a great addition for this reason. Around him, though, you still need guys who can come off the bench and perform their roles - they need to be able to defend their position, so they can play minutes with the first squad when necessary, and they need to be able to fit in offensively. Who is coming in at SG who can shoot? Tyreke, not so much. His effectiveness is really going to turn on whether he has improved his jumpshot enough to be able to primarily play SG and SF, instead of PG, and we still really don't know. Selden is probably the best fit here, but we're still not sure how well he can shoot the ball at the varsity level. You know who absolutely CANNOT shoot a lick? Andrew Harrison and Wade Baldwin. The idea that either of them should play SG is just a pipe dream, maybe born out of the realization that they can't play PG, and maybe based on some hope/desire that "two ball handlers" would be a good offensive look. It hasn't been. When we saw Harrison at SG, it was an abject failure, because he can't shoot, and because he swallows the ball.  At SF, the depth is unclear. Maybe Selden, maybe Tyreke, maybe Dillon Brooks? Maybe. His shooting is unproven. The depth at PF is also unclear. Parsons? On paper, he's got the tools. Playing with the second unit, he absolutely has to let it fly, but he has been extremely timid in all of the action we've seen so far. Invisible, even. Martin has the raw tools, can hit an open jumper, but is also streaky. I like him best at this position, though. C depth is fine.

So, I hope in tonight's preseason action we get some answers to these questions, and that we see some lineups that actually make sense, along with an offense that looks sensible. No Harrison at SG, that was just wretched. And maybe we can actually score some points and hit some threes. 

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ALSO:

If the plan really is to play Parsons at PF, then what we need to see tonight is the Chalmers-Parsons pick-and-roll. If Parsons can effectively screen and flare/pop behind the three line, and make the defense choose between switching to stop Chalmers on the drive, leaving a PG on Parsons for the pull-up jumper, or chasing Chalmers over or under the screen, leaving Chalmers with an open three, or attacking the basket off the dribble with momentum, then we might be getting somewhere. Both Wright and Davis can catch an alley-oop over the defense on the baseline, which should be effective pretty routinely, since we know Chalmers is a good enough shooter that some defenses will choose to chase him over the screen. So, who would be the wings that would lube this up and keep the engine running? Again, it's McLemore, Ennis, Selden, Tyreke, Brooks at the SG and SF. And, the downside risk is that there might just be too much help coming off of Selden, Tyreke, and Brooks onto the initial pick and roll action, and clogging the engine up, without the payoff of being able to hit a three when left wide open and being dared to shoot. But, if two out of three of Selden, Tyreke, and/or Brooks end up being able to knock a three down consistently, at a 35%-37% clip or above, then we might really be on to something here, at least offensively. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 1:29 PM, chipc3 said:

Actually I hope the FO is taking into account pre-season, summer league but most importantly practice. Seeing what they are doing in practice, working on things the team will be trying to accomplish with players around them who will be playing and not basic sets with miss matched lineups against guys playing in the D-League or Europe in November should be the primary determinant in my opinion.

You can't take practice into account because many people have said Chandler looks good in practice but through 3 preseason games he has yet to even look good....I doubt the team practices at game speed I think preseason games have to be the most important evaluation tool.. Mainoy for guys coming off injury and young guys trying to make the roster or break the rotation....Preseason doesn't matter much for core players cause you will have them either way.

 

So for example preseason matters for Chandler Rio and all the young guys. Everyone else you kinda know what you have

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If Parsons is regulated to the 4 then that signing was a failure he was brought in to be the 3 if he's at the 4 then go ahead and cut Martin cause he won't play enough to develop

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12 minutes ago, Ndq0327 said:

You can't take practice into account because many people have said Chandler looks good in practice but through 3 preseason games he has yet to even look good....I doubt the team practices at game speed I think preseason games have to be the most important evaluation tool.. Mainoy for guys coming off injury and young guys trying to make the roster or break the rotation....Preseason doesn't matter much for core players cause you will have them either way.

 

So for example preseason matters for Chandler Rio and all the young guys. Everyone else you kinda know what you have

I don’t take into account the company line about Parsons! I realize I’m in the minority in this regard but I believe practice has far more to do with who stays or goes on the roster than the pre-season games or summer league. 

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11 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

Did you just start watching the last three seasons?

If you accept the premise, as I do, that the Grizzlies offense last season was the highest-octane offense statistically that we've ever had (without look it up, I think you'd have to maybe go back to the Hubie era, at least, in terms of pace and efficiency), and you also accept the premise, as I do, that this off-season we traded defense for an upgrade in offense, then the natural conclusion is that we're poised to be even better than last season's all-time best offense, which means this team should be our best offensive team ever.

And, if people aren't aware of this, then I think that's a shame, and probably a failure of messaging from the franchise as well as coverage from the media.

Even if you want to dig into the historical data (which I don't really have time for), and argue that maybe the Hubie-era playoff teams were better offensively in some category or categories than last year's Grizzlies, then you still have to accept that this team is built to have the best offense of the Conley-Gasol era.

Conley is the best he has ever been. Gasol is also the best he has ever been. And they are surrounded (theoretically - the season still has to be played) by more potent offensive pieces than we have ever had.

Health being the first and most obvious caveat, and then mid-season trajectory and morale probably being the second (that is, if they stink, the team is likely to play worse, than if they are competitive and realistically fighting for a Playoff spot, etc.), this team should score more points, make more threes, and be more efficient per possession than any in the last seven or eight seasons, and probably all-time in franchise history.

Of course, that may not translate into more wins, for a variety of reasons.

 

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7 hours ago, Herodotus said:

If you accept the premise, as I do, that the Grizzlies offense last season was the highest-octane offense statistically that we've ever had (without look it up, I think you'd have to maybe go back to the Hubie era, at least, in terms of pace and efficiency), and you also accept the premise, as I do, that this off-season we traded defense for an upgrade in offense, then the natural conclusion is that we're poised to be even better than last season's all-time best offense, which means this team should be our best offensive team ever.

And, if people aren't aware of this, then I think that's a shame, and probably a failure of messaging from the franchise as well as coverage from the media.

Even if you want to dig into the historical data (which I don't really have time for), and argue that maybe the Hubie-era playoff teams were better offensively in some category or categories than last year's Grizzlies, then you still have to accept that this team is built to have the best offense of the Conley-Gasol era.

Conley is the best he has ever been. Gasol is also the best he has ever been. And they are surrounded (theoretically - the season still has to be played) by more potent offensive pieces than we have ever had.

Health being the first and most obvious caveat, and then mid-season trajectory and morale probably being the second (that is, if they stink, the team is likely to play worse, than if they are competitive and realistically fighting for a Playoff spot, etc.), this team should score more points, make more threes, and be more efficient per possession than any in the last seven or eight seasons, and probably all-time in franchise history.

Of course, that may not translate into more wins, for a variety of reasons.

 

You said "We have our best offensive starting five ever."  Besides not even knowing who the starting five are going to be, if we just guess I would say that the figures produced by any five we put on the floor this season would not match the production of Hollins' '09-'10 starting five of Gasol, Randolph, Gay, Mayo, and Conley who averaged 84.5 ppg and had the franchise's highest offensive rating at 108.3 even though Sam Young's 7 ppg was the highest off the bench.  That team's defense was atrocious though.

Last season's starting five scored about 62.8 ppg and the offense had a respectable 107.7 offensive rating, but that crew got a lot more help from the bench.  Hubie's team was about 62.8 ppg with an O-rating of 104.8.  Hubie's team did it with defense as did Hollins' teams.  Kind of goes to highlight how important defense is, yet most fans don't seem to care much about it.

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14 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

You said "We have our best offensive starting five ever."  Besides not even knowing who the starting five are going to be, if we just guess I would say that the figures produced by any five we put on the floor this season would not match the production of Hollins' '09-'10 starting five of Gasol, Randolph, Gay, Mayo, and Conley who averaged 84.5 ppg and had the franchise's highest offensive rating at 108.3 even though Sam Young's 7 ppg was the highest off the bench.  That team's defense was atrocious though.

Last season's starting five scored about 62.8 ppg and the offense had a respectable 107.7 offensive rating, but that crew got a lot more help from the bench.  Hubie's team was about 62.8 ppg with an O-rating of 104.8.  Hubie's team did it with defense as did Hollins' teams.  Kind of goes to highlight how important defense is, yet most fans don't seem to care much about it.

I love defense! One of my biggest fears this coming season is the reality of how much continuity and defense mean to the success of a team. People think Wayne Selden and Ben McLemore can replace Tony Allen. I hope they are correct but I am not so confident. People criticize Zach Randolph's defense but he knew where he was supposed to be as a PF. Clearly he was lost when Fizdale moved him to Center last season. Chandler Parsons could play acceptable SF defense when he had knees. Can he play acceptable defense at PF without knees? I am concerned. 

I also find it dangerous to make proclamations about future events and state them as fact. We HOPE this season's offense will be the best ever from the starting five but no one knows for sure what it will be. 

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8 hours ago, Herodotus said:

Man, we had such high hopes for that Conley-Mayo-Gay roster. 

I still think we would've been better off if we kept Mayo over Gay.   At the time i was Pro-Gay :o  but in retrospect Mayo was the better fit with Zbo and Tony due to his floor spacing ability. 

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4 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I still think we would've been better off if we kept Mayo over Gay.   At the time i was Pro-Gay :o  but in retrospect Mayo was the better fit with Zbo and Tony due to his floor spacing ability. 

In retrospect, Rudy Gay should have been a stretch-4 on a team following the Warriors model. I loved Rudy Gay and was truly saddened when we traded him. (And definitely took it out on Tayshaun). The problem for him was always: below-average defender, not really an aggressive rebounder, and he didn't hit the three at a high enough clip. He was, like, a B- Tracy McGrady, in a league in which the McGrady/Steve Francis style of play was going out of style.

In retrospect, OJ Mayo was not a point guard. If he hadn't hit rock bottom mentally and emotionally, though, I do still wonder whether he couldn't have been a Jamal Crawford-type scorer off of the bench for a good team playing meaningful games (instead of being stuck on worthless teams, behind other worthless players, playing worthless games).

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8 minutes ago, Herodotus said:

In retrospect, Rudy Gay should have been a stretch-4 on a team following the Warriors model. I loved Rudy Gay and was truly saddened when we traded him. (And definitely took it out on Tayshaun). The problem for him was always: below-average defender, not really an aggressive rebounder, and he didn't hit the three at a high enough clip. He was, like, a B- Tracy McGrady, in a league in which the McGrady/Steve Francis style of play was going out of style.

In retrospect, OJ Mayo was not a point guard. If he hadn't hit rock bottom mentally and emotionally, though, I do still wonder whether he couldn't have been a Jamal Crawford-type scorer off of the bench for a good team playing meaningful games (instead of being stuck on worthless teams, behind other worthless players, playing worthless games).

This is all sweet how you guys remember OJ  but remember that Mayo got in a fight with Tony Allen on the team plane for failing to pay his gambling debt, was suspended by the league for steroids use in Memphis before getting banned from the league and was a constant attitude problem not only once the team moved him to the bench but even when he was starting SG. If we want to talk about what Mayo could have been lots not forget what he was at the same time. 

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2 minutes ago, Herodotus said:

In retrospect, Rudy Gay should have been a stretch-4 on a team following the Warriors model. I loved Rudy Gay and was truly saddened when we traded him. (And definitely took it out on Tayshaun). The problem for him was always: below-average defender, not really an aggressive rebounder, and he didn't hit the three at a high enough clip. He was, like, a B- Tracy McGrady, in a league in which the McGrady/Steve Francis style of play was going out of style.

In retrospect, OJ Mayo was not a point guard. If he hadn't hit rock bottom mentally and emotionally, though, I do still wonder whether he couldn't have been a Jamal Crawford-type scorer off of the bench for a good team playing meaningful games (instead of being stuck on worthless teams, behind other worthless players, playing worthless games).

Right about Gay which is why he and Zbo were not a good mix.    

Mayo wasn't a PG but he had enough passing ability and ball-handling to be the secondary playmaker on the wing.   At the time Hollins was too traditional and believed in putting all the ball-handling responsibility on the Point Guard.  Using him in that role or as 6th man would have greatly helped our offense. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Mayo last season in Memphis 2012 and Gay's was traded in 2013.  

I realized that after I posted it and took it down. Thanks for catching it. 

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17 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I love defense! One of my biggest fears this coming season is the reality of how much continuity and defense mean to the success of a team. People think Wayne Selden and Ben McLemore can replace Tony Allen. I hope they are correct but I am not so confident. People criticize Zach Randolph's defense but he knew where he was supposed to be as a PF. Clearly he was lost when Fizdale moved him to Center last season. Chandler Parsons could play acceptable SF defense when he had knees. Can he play acceptable defense at PF without knees? I am concerned. 

I also find it dangerous to make proclamations about future events and state them as fact. We HOPE this season's offense will be the best ever from the starting five but no one knows for sure what it will be. 

I'm pretty careful not to make proclamations and state them as fact. I think if you'll read back through what I wrote, you'll see that my words a pretty carefully chosen. I try not to have to waste too much time caveating and disclaiming everything, but it seems pretty unavoidable most of the time. I'm just making an argument for the roster that seems to be overlooked in all the huffing and puffing about the front office's supposed disaster of a summer. 

I had a brief hair that the early Gay-Mayo rosters, before we really started winning, might have scored a ton of points, because I remembered Hollins' famous line about it being worthless to have two or three 20-point scorers, if you're still losing games. I couldn't have really made a guess about efficiency, though. I also remember, we had like, one of the top-5 starting fives in the league, and maybe the dead last or close to dead last bench. Again, not going to look it up, but I believe neither Gay nor Mayo averaged 20-points per game in a season after Hollins said that (Mayo, definitely, Gay, I'm almost certain his ppg numbers at least went down).

 

 

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Just now, Herodotus said:

I'm pretty careful not to make proclamations and state them as fact. I think if you'll read back through what I wrote, you'll see that my words a pretty carefully chosen. I try not to have to waste too much time caveating and disclaiming everything, but it seems pretty unavoidable most of the time. I'm just making an argument for the roster that seems to be overlooked in all the huffing and puffing about the front office's supposed disaster of a summer. 

I had a brief hair that the early Gay-Mayo rosters, before we really started winning, might have scored a ton of points, because I remembered Hollins' famous line about it being worthless to have two or three 20-point scorers, if you're still losing games. I couldn't have really made a guess about efficiency, though. I also remember, we had like, one of the top-5 starting fives in the league, and maybe the dead last or close to dead last bench. Again, not going to look it up, but I believe neither Gay nor Mayo averaged 20-points per game in a season after Hollins said that (Mayo, definitely, Gay, I'm almost certain his ppg numbers at least went down).

 

I'm not talking about your statements about the past. I am referring to your comments about the future i.e. stating "we have our best starting five ever."

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4 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

This is all sweet how you guys remember OJ  but remember that Mayo got in a fight with Tony Allen on the team plane for failing to pay his gambling debt, was suspended by the league for steroids use in Memphis before getting banned from the league and was a constant attitude problem not only once the team moved him to the bench but even when he was starting SG. If we want to talk about what Mayo could have been lots not forget what he was at the same time. 

I've always empathized with Mayo. It's fine if others don't. I definitely do not think Mayo is the only player in the NBA to have been taking steroids or other performance-enhancers. So, again, to me, that comes off as like a bad luck thing, when you know he's not the only one doing it, but he's getting busted. The fight on the plane really goes both ways - I mean, do you mean to tell me that somehow Mayo takes all of the blame for a fight in which he suffered a physical injury? Maybe you're not saying that. It seems pretty clear to me that Tony Allen is also to blame, and maybe even more so, I don't know. Also, his attitude problem was mostly tied to his thinking that he could be a star in the league if only he was given the chance to play point guard. That was the big clash between himself and his camp and Lionel Hollins. And it was also ultimately why he ended up getting traded. On Mayo's end, it was still a quest to get an opportunity to play point guard for a team and prove himself, and have a chance to resurrect his career. Didn't work out, of course, as we know. 

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1 minute ago, Herodotus said:

I've always empathized with Mayo. It's fine if others don't. I definitely do not think Mayo is the only player in the NBA to have been taking steroids or other performance-enhancers. So, again, to me, that comes off as like a bad luck thing, when you know he's not the only one doing it, but he's getting busted. The fight on the plane really goes both ways - I mean, do you mean to tell me that somehow Mayo takes all of the blame for a fight in which he suffered a physical injury? Maybe you're not saying that. It seems pretty clear to me that Tony Allen is also to blame, and maybe even more so, I don't know. Also, his attitude problem was mostly tied to his thinking that he could be a star in the league if only he was given the chance to play point guard. That was the big clash between himself and his camp and Lionel Hollins. And it was also ultimately why he ended up getting traded. On Mayo's end, it was still a quest to get an opportunity to play point guard for a team and prove himself, and have a chance to resurrect his career. Didn't work out, of course, as we know. 

I don't believe Mayo was traded. The Grizzlies didn't offer him a qualifying offer and he left for one season in Dallas before moving to Milwaukee where he ended up getting banned from the league. 

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38 minutes ago, Herodotus said:

I've always empathized with Mayo. It's fine if others don't. I definitely do not think Mayo is the only player in the NBA to have been taking steroids or other performance-enhancers. So, again, to me, that comes off as like a bad luck thing, when you know he's not the only one doing it, but he's getting busted. The fight on the plane really goes both ways - I mean, do you mean to tell me that somehow Mayo takes all of the blame for a fight in which he suffered a physical injury? Maybe you're not saying that. It seems pretty clear to me that Tony Allen is also to blame, and maybe even more so, I don't know. Also, his attitude problem was mostly tied to his thinking that he could be a star in the league if only he was given the chance to play point guard. That was the big clash between himself and his camp and Lionel Hollins. And it was also ultimately why he ended up getting traded. On Mayo's end, it was still a quest to get an opportunity to play point guard for a team and prove himself, and have a chance to resurrect his career. Didn't work out, of course, as we know. 

I always saw the Mayo to PG argument more about the fact that he just wanted to be more than a spot up shooter.   Mayo would've been fine if he was given more responsibility with the ball (like his stint in Dallas).   He was more in the mold of a Dwade or Brandan Roy than a true PG.  

 

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29 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I always saw the Mayo to PG argument more about the fact that he just wanted to be more than a spot up shooter.   Mayo would've been fine if he was given more responsibility with the ball (like his stint in Dallas).   He was more in the mold of a Dwade or Brandan Roy than a true PG.  

 

The only thing Mayo had in common with Brandan Roy was the length of time he spent in the NBA. He had nothing in common with DWade other than not wanting to play in Memphis. 

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