The REF

Should Grizzlies Just Forfeit The Season ūüėā?

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It's like Bear Bryant used to say - if you have four Shooting Guards, you don't have a shooting guard.

I think he said the same thing about Power Forwards.

Bold prediction:  The Grizzlies will have a "Shepherd Crook's giveaway night" in honor of this season.

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2 hours ago, The_PROOF said:

I have a hard time calling a guy who averaged less than 9 points and 7 rebounds with no elite skills a legit starter. He was the starter based on his circumstance.

Most would say that he wasn't even the best PF on the team, but started solely because he fit better with Marc than Zach, based on the coach's desired style.

2 things indicate to me that he's not a legit starter:

1. He wouldn't start for most of the other teams in the league.

2. If he was a legit starter, why didn't he receive any acceptable offers from other teams during free agency? I know he was restricted, but he couldn't even get an acceptable offer sheet.

by that logic I guess Kentavious Caldwell Pope and Nerlens Noel are borderline guys as well.   Or it could be possible that he is being penalized for being a RFA the year after every team got stupid with their money is hurting him. 

Also what is with Grizz fans thinking every player that starts has to be an elite level player?  That's been an argument ever since the GnG era started.    

What is DeMarre Carroll elite at?

What is Robin Lopez elite at?

What is IIlyasova elite at?

What is Solomon Hill elite at?

what is Mau Harkless elite at?

what is Marvin Williams elite at?

A player is a legit starter if there team started him for over 50% of games and the team had a winning record.   Sometimes guys start not because of their elite level skills but because of their fit alongside other starters.   JaMychal is a dirty-work glue guy and that is why he fits as a starter. 

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

by that logic I guess Kentavious Caldwell Pope and Nerlens Noel are borderline guys as well.   Or it could be possible that he is being penalized for being a RFA the year after every team got stupid with their money is hurting him. 

Also what is with Grizz fans thinking every player that starts has to be an elite level player?  That's been an argument ever since the GnG era started.    

What is DeMarre Carroll elite at?

What is Robin Lopez elite at?

What is IIlyasova elite at?

What is Solomon Hill elite at?

what is Mau Harkless elite at?

what is Marvin Williams elite at?

A player is a legit starter if there team started him for over 50% of games and the team had a winning record.   Sometimes guys start not because of their elite level skills but because of their fit alongside other starters.   JaMychal is a dirty-work glue guy and that is why he fits as a starter. 

I think the roster is loaded with "dirty-work glue guys", don't you think we need more guys with actual skills?  ...and I like dirty-work glue guys just to be clear.

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2 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

by that logic I guess Kentavious Caldwell Pope and Nerlens Noel are borderline guys as well.   Or it could be possible that he is being penalized for being a RFA the year after every team got stupid with their money is hurting him. 

Also what is with Grizz fans thinking every player that starts has to be an elite level player?  That's been an argument ever since the GnG era started.    

What is DeMarre Carroll elite at?

What is Robin Lopez elite at?

What is IIlyasova elite at?

What is Solomon Hill elite at?

what is Mau Harkless elite at?

what is Marvin Williams elite at?

A player is a legit starter if there team started him for over 50% of games and the team had a winning record.   Sometimes guys start not because of their elite level skills but because of their fit alongside other starters.   JaMychal is a dirty-work glue guy and that is why he fits as a starter. 

Is it fair to say that Jamychal is a well below average starter, to the point that virtually every night he steps on the court, the other team will likely have someone better?

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9 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

by that logic I guess Kentavious Caldwell Pope and Nerlens Noel are borderline guys as well.   Or it could be possible that he is being penalized for being a RFA the year after every team got stupid with their money is hurting him. 

Also what is with Grizz fans thinking every player that starts has to be an elite level player?  That's been an argument ever since the GnG era started.    

What is DeMarre Carroll elite at?

What is Robin Lopez elite at?

What is IIlyasova elite at?

What is Solomon Hill elite at?

what is Mau Harkless elite at?

what is Marvin Williams elite at?

A player is a legit starter if there team started him for over 50% of games and the team had a winning record.   Sometimes guys start not because of their elite level skills but because of their fit alongside other starters.   JaMychal is a dirty-work glue guy and that is why he fits as a starter. 

You're taking this way too personal, about JaMychal. Your idea of a legit starter is a head-scratcher because I can give you a ton of example of guys who started on winning teams that you would not consider "legit starters" (i.e. Kendrick Perkins in OKC, Luc Mbah a Moute in LAC, etc.)

Noah Vonleh started at PF for over half of the season with Portland....are you ready to anoint him a legit starter at 4 points a 5 rebounds a game?

Comparing JaMychal to Nerlens Noel and KCP, who were both lottery picks with potentially elite skill sets, is unfair to JaMychal. 

There's nothing wrong JaMychal not having any elite skills. That is simply me stating a fact, which supports the point I'm making.

If the guy wouldn't start on 90% of the other teams in the NBA, how can you say he's a legit starter in this league?

If 90% of the time, the starting PF on the opposing team is better than him, how can you say he's a legit starter in this league?

Is he a legit starter for the Memphis Grizzlies? Well, yes. Especially now. But on most teams he'd be a 6th man, at best...just like all the other guys you listed towards the middle of your post.

Just my opinion though...

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14 hours ago, The_PROOF said:

 

Having a plethora of players at a positions to the point where several of the players who play that position will see limited to no playing time....typically while another position is stretched thin on options and talent (Center).

Which position do you see where someone won't receive limited to no playing time? Small Forward has multiple players capable of playing multiple positions. Parsons and Rade can play the stretch for with their height. Ennis can play shooting guard. Shooting Guard has numerous players capable of playing multiple positions as well. 

Reality is that most teams play 9-10 players in a normal rotation. That means 5-6 players will receive little or no playing time or play predominantly in the D League. Baldwin, Brooks, Rabb and Zagorac will all play the majority of their minutes in the D-League this season for instance. Heading into the season (acknowledging injury, the assumption that Green will sign and the D-league situations) the team has this lineup for opening night:

PG: Conley, the loser of Harrison and Chalmers, 
SG: Selden, Evans, Brooks
SF: Parsons, Ennis, 
PF: Green, Wright, Martin
C: Gasol, Davis

McLemore is out with the broken foot. When he returns I expect Brooks to join Baldwin, Rade and Rabb in the D-League. Knowing Parsons and Evans injury history I don't see any area where the team has a plethora of players receiving no or limited minutes. Someone has to go but the overloaded positions seem to be PF and PG especially if you factor Parson receiving minutes at PF. 

When I think of who I want to see playing the most minutes at least early in the season it would be this way:
Conley, Gasol, Parsons, Green, Selden, Evans, Ennis, Harrison/Chalmers, Wright, Davis, Brooks, Martin. 

That's why I believe it is sensible with team having one too many players that Martin is waived/traded. 
 

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9 hours ago, Dwash said:

Is it fair to say that Jamychal is a well below average starter, to the point that virtually every night he steps on the court, the other team will likely have someone better?

That is fair to say or that he is a lower tier starter at PF based off his first season as a full-time starter.    Same can be said with whomever starts at SG for majority of this season as well.  

Keep in mind guys like Jon Leuer, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Marquesse Chriss, Miritoc, and Aminu are also starting  at PF for teams too. 

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23 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Fixed that for you.     JaMychal was a solid starter last season. Tyreke is a starting level talent.  Parsons has been a starter majority of his career.  Chalmers and Ben have been starters most of their careers.  

 

15 hours ago, The_PROOF said:

I have a hard time calling a guy who averaged less than 9 points and 7 rebounds with no elite skills a legit starter. He was the starter based on his circumstance.

Most would say that he wasn't even the best PF on the team, but started solely because he fit better with Marc than Zach, based on the coach's desired style.

2 things indicate to me that he's not a legit starter:

1. He wouldn't start for most of the other teams in the league.

2. If he was a legit starter, why didn't he receive any acceptable offers from other teams during free agency? I know he was restricted, but he couldn't even get an acceptable offer sheet.

Apparently "solid starter" means someone who wouldn't start for most teams in the league and wasn't offered a league average contract this summer, Not even by the Grizzlies! :lol:

Of course, Parsons hasn't proven he's still capable of playing SF (although we all hope he can this season). Evans hasn't proven he can handle starters minutes anymore (although we all hope he can this season). Chalmers hasn't even been offered a guaranteed contract this season (although we all hope he wins a position). 

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14 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

That is fair to say or that he is a lower tier starter at PF based off his first season as a full-time starter.    Same can be said with whomever starts at SG for majority of this season as well.  

Keep in mind guys like Jon Leuer, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Marquesse Chriss, Miritoc, and Aminu are also starting  at PF for teams too. 

And their teams are all trying to replace them with better players. Every team has to throw out 5 players to start a game. That doesn't mean all five are legitimate starters. It doesn't even mean they are the best players at that position on their team. 

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2 hours ago, The_PROOF said:

You're taking this way too personal, about JaMychal. Your idea of a legit starter is a head-scratcher because I can give you a ton of example of guys who started on winning teams that you would not consider "legit starters" (i.e. Kendrick Perkins in OKC, Luc Mbah a Moute in LAC, etc.)

Noah Vonleh started at PF for over half of the season with Portland....are you ready to anoint him a legit starter at 4 points a 5 rebounds a game?

Comparing JaMychal to Nerlens Noel and KCP, who were both lottery picks with potentially elite skill sets, is unfair to JaMychal. 

There's nothing wrong JaMychal not having any elite skills. That is simply me stating a fact, which supports the point I'm making.

If the guy wouldn't start on 90% of the other teams in the NBA, how can you say he's a legit starter in this league?

If 90% of the time, the starting PF on the opposing team is better than him, how can you say he's a legit starter in this league?

Is he a legit starter for the Memphis Grizzlies? Well, yes. Especially now. But on most teams he'd be a 6th man, at best...just like all the other guys you listed towards the middle of your post.

Just my opinion though...

JaMychal is a solid player that can hit 3's, rebounds at a high rate, and is versatile on defense.   Those skillsets are needed in today's NBA.  When you are good to solid in a lot of different skills then it is fine that you aren't elite at anything.    I know he isn't blake Griffin or Draymond or LaMarcus level PF.  That isn't my point.  I think he proved himself to be a viable starter and can grow in that role.  

I am fine if we come across a better option as a starter and move him to the bench.  But for what we need he is a legit starter.  Plenty of sports commentators and analyst thought he earned a huge payday.   He got punished by his situation (RFA) not because of his perception of not being considered a legit starting level player. 

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36 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

That is fair to say or that he is a lower tier starter at PF based off his first season as a full-time starter.    Same can be said with whomever starts at SG for majority of this season as well.  

Keep in mind guys like Jon Leuer, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Marquesse Chriss, Miritoc, and Aminu are also starting  at PF for teams too. 

Not saying he is the absolutely worst, but every night he is either about the same level as the bottom of the barrel PF or he is worse than the other teams PF.  So every night its a draw or a disadvantage. There are teams with similar quality or better coming off their bench. That isnt something to get excited about imo.

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1 minute ago, Dwash said:

Not saying he is the absolutely worst, but every night he is either about the same level as the bottom of the barrel PF or he is worse.  There are teams with similar quality coming off their bench. That isnt something to get excited about imo.

But that's how the game has always been.    No team has top 5 guys at every position (well they didn't before GSW got together lol)

The idea is for whatever lineup we throw on the floor to have more players at a higher level than the opponent.    We need Mike+Marc + CP to be equal or better than their opponent.  Then work on developing a legit weapon at SG.    

IMHO Wayne should get the kawhi treatment and fully developed into the role.   

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I was going to say that Green only rebounds at a high rate compared to other Grizzlies' players, but after checking rebound rates of the league he is quite respectable.  If you look at rebound % he is probably top ten among PFs.  I know it isn't per game and there are other factors which weigh in advanced statistics, but it seems he can hold his own in that department pretty well when he is on the floor.  Of course the guy he is replacing was second among PFs, 11th in the league overall.

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4 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

JaMychal is a solid player that can hit 3's, rebounds at a high rate, and is versatile on defense.   Those skillsets are needed in today's NBA.  When you are good to solid in a lot of different skills then it is fine that you aren't elite at anything.    I know he isn't blake Griffin or Draymond or LaMarcus level PF.  That isn't my point.  I think he proved himself to be a viable starter and can grow in that role.  

I am fine if we come across a better option as a starter and move him to the bench.  But for what we need he is a legit starter.  Plenty of sports commentators and analyst thought he earned a huge payday.   He got punished by his situation (RFA) not because of his perception of not being considered a legit starting level player. 

I like him and hope he does grow as a player...hate having to bash one of our guys to try to argue a point. I think he fits what OUR team needs at his position.

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5 hours ago, chipc3 said:

Which position do you see where someone won't receive limited to no playing time? Small Forward has multiple players capable of playing multiple positions. Parsons and Rade can play the stretch for with their height. Ennis can play shooting guard. Shooting Guard has numerous players capable of playing multiple positions as well. 

Reality is that most teams play 9-10 players in a normal rotation. That means 5-6 players will receive little or no playing time or play predominantly in the D League. Baldwin, Brooks, Rabb and Zagorac will all play the majority of their minutes in the D-League this season for instance. Heading into the season (acknowledging injury, the assumption that Green will sign and the D-league situations) the team has this lineup for opening night:

PG: Conley, the loser of Harrison and Chalmers, 
SG: Selden, Evans, Brooks
SF: Parsons, Ennis, 
PF: Green, Wright, Martin
C: Gasol, Davis

McLemore is out with the broken foot. When he returns I expect Brooks to join Baldwin, Rade and Rabb in the D-League. Knowing Parsons and Evans injury history I don't see any area where the team has a plethora of players receiving no or limited minutes. Someone has to go but the overloaded positions seem to be PF and PG especially if you factor Parson receiving minutes at PF. 

When I think of who I want to see playing the most minutes at least early in the season it would be this way:
Conley, Gasol, Parsons, Green, Selden, Evans, Ennis, Harrison/Chalmers, Wright, Davis, Brooks, Martin. 

That's why I believe it is sensible with team having one too many players that Martin is waived/traded. 
 

I fully understand and agree that players have the capability to play multiple positions. We have several guys whose primary position is SF that will have to battle for their minutes. More so than other positions on the roster.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how Fizz plans on using guys. Dillon Brooks is more of a SF/PF because of his frame and defensive limitations..but who knows, maybe coach will view him as a SF/SG. What position(s) best suit(s) him? Parsons? Wright? Davis? Evans? I don't know, and I don't think we will either until about 18 Oct.

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1 minute ago, The_PROOF said:

I fully understand and agree that players have the capability to play multiple positions. We have several guys whose primary position is SF that will have to battle for their minutes. 

I guess we'll have to wait and see how Fizz plans on using guys. Dillon Brooks is more of a SF/PF because of his frame and defensive limitations..but who knows, maybe coach will view him as a SF/SG. I don't know, and I don't think we will either until about 18 Oct.

I may be wrong but I can't see Dillon Brooks at 6'6" playing power forward but in today's shrinking lineups maybe I am wrong. 

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1 minute ago, chipc3 said:

I may be wrong but I can't see Dillon Brooks at 6'6" playing power forward but in today's shrinking lineups maybe I am wrong. 

It's definitely not ideal...if he can change his body, I think SF/SG would be the best case scenario for him. Defensively though? Hmmm, not so sure he can defend some of the 2's in the league.

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3 minutes ago, The_PROOF said:

It's definitely not ideal...if he can change his body, I think SF/SG would be the best case scenario for him. Defensively though? Hmmm, not so sure he can defend some of the 2's in the league.

Defense is the reason Brooks lasted until the 2nd round. 

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Thanks. This is another good one.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/columnists/geoff-calkins/2017/09/26/fifteen-cant-miss-quotes-memphis-grizzlies-media-day/702725001/

:D

9. Zagorac on what he‚Äôs learned about Memphis: ‚ÄúI didn‚Äôt know I‚Äôm so big fan of barbecue.‚ÄĚ

13. Mike Conley on whether FedExForum can still be called the Grindhouse: ‚ÄúYou‚Äôve got to ask Tony.‚ÄĚ

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