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Who Do The Grizzlies Lose?

Who Do The Grizzlies Lose?  

43 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. Who Do The Grizzlies Lose?

    • Wade Baldwin IV
      18
    • Dillon Brooks
      1
    • Mario Chalmers
      4
    • James Ennis III
      1
    • Andrew Harrison
      13
    • Jarell Martin
      23
    • Wayne Selden
      2
    • Brandan Wright
      7
    • Rade Zagorac
      9

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  • Poll closed on 10/17/2017 at 04:01 AM

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Comparing Wright to Martin straight up as is being done is inappropriate. Brandan Wright is a 5 with limited offensive ability, who cannot transition to the 4 in today's NBA at all. Jarrell Martin is a 4, with some capacity to slide to the 3, and maybe, maybe slide to the 5 if needed. So, they barely overlap on the depth chart, if at all. 

The problem with the roster is that there is no depth at the 4. It's JaMychal Green, Jarrell Martin, maybe Chandler Parsons in small-ball lineups, and then maybe, maybe Ivan Rabb. If Jarrell Martin is eliminated from the roster, then another adjustment has to be made, because there's a hole at 4. 

Brandan Wright is battling with Deyonta Davis to back up Gasol at the 5. Both Wright and Davis are defensive centers with no ability to slide to the 4. It is more productive to compare Davis to Wright and to discuss which of them should the second on the depth chart. My view is that the Grizzlies should commit to Davis as the principal backup to Marc, and get rid of Wright. 

If the Grizzlies get rid of Wright and Harrison, that maintains balance on the roster without having to make another move. So, if they're not going to get rid of Brandan Wright, then, because the depth glut is at point guard (Conley, Chalmers, Harrison, Baldwin, Simmons), I would think they would want to get rid of two point guards. And, if not Harrison, then who would that be? Chalmers and Simmons? 

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39 minutes ago, Herodotus said:

Comparing Wright to Martin straight up as is being done is inappropriate. Brandan Wright is a 5 with limited offensive ability, who cannot transition to the 4 in today's NBA at all. Jarrell Martin is a 4, with some capacity to slide to the 3, and maybe, maybe slide to the 5 if needed. So, they barely overlap on the depth chart, if at all. 

The problem with the roster is that there is no depth at the 4. It's JaMychal Green, Jarrell Martin, maybe Chandler Parsons in small-ball lineups, and then maybe, maybe Ivan Rabb. If Jarrell Martin is eliminated from the roster, then another adjustment has to be made, because there's a hole at 4. 

Brandan Wright is battling with Deyonta Davis to back up Gasol at the 5. Both Wright and Davis are defensive centers with no ability to slide to the 4. It is more productive to compare Davis to Wright and to discuss which of them should the second on the depth chart. My view is that the Grizzlies should commit to Davis as the principal backup to Marc, and get rid of Wright. 

If the Grizzlies get rid of Wright and Harrison, that maintains balance on the roster without having to make another move. So, if they're not going to get rid of Brandan Wright, then, because the depth glut is at point guard (Conley, Chalmers, Harrison, Baldwin, Simmons), I would think they would want to get rid of two point guards. And, if not Harrison, then who would that be? Chalmers and Simmons? 

I agree that technically the argument should be between Davis and Wright.   As of right now I'd be terrified to have DD be Marc primary backup.     He just isn't ready.   So i say keep Wright another season to give FO time to evaluate if Rabb or Davis is the better prospect at the 5 going forward. 

Fiz has already said he is going to play alot of smallball so i fully expect Parsons and Ennis to soak up minutes at the 4 as well.   Only way i would want to keep Martin is if Parsons looks like complete garbage again.  His wingspan is too short to me and BBIQ too suspect.  If someone has to be sacrificed then he is most logical choice. 

I keep forgetting about Kobi Simmons ( he is on a 2way so not counting against active roster).    That gives us Three PG prospects (wade, harrison, Kobi) and a legit backup in Chalmers.   This changes who i think gets moved now.   Chalmers gives FO more time to evaluate the young guys while not having to exclusively depend on them.  That's bad news for Harrison. 

 Harrison's only value was as the safe choice to backup Conley.    Everyone knows his upside is limited as a scorer or PG but his size was valuable as a secondary ball-handler to pair with Conley.    Healthy Parsons, Chalmers, and Tyreke greatly lessens his value there.    So now question becomes can he transition to a SG or combo.   Wayne is the much better prospect at SG and Wade has the higher ceiling as a combo.      At this point the only way he can make him self indispensable is by becoming a "Tony Allen level defender that can handle the ball".  That ain't happening in one offseason. 

My new bet is on Martin + Harrison being moved.   Those two are much cheaper to waive than any other option and will have the least amount of impact to team success. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I agree that technically the argument should be between Davis and Wright.   As of right now I'd be terrified to have DD be Marc primary backup.     He just isn't ready.   So i say keep Wright another season to give FO time to evaluate if Rabb or Davis is the better prospect at the 5 going forward. 

Fiz has already said he is going to play alot of smallball so i fully expect Parsons and Ennis to soak up minutes at the 4 as well.   Only way i would want to keep Martin is if Parsons looks like complete garbage again.  His wingspan is too short to me and BBIQ too suspect.  If someone has to be sacrificed then he is most logical choice. 

I keep forgetting about Kobi Simmons ( he is on a 2way so not counting against active roster).    That gives us Three PG prospects (wade, harrison, Kobi) and a legit backup in Chalmers.   This changes who i think gets moved now.   Chalmers gives FO more time to evaluate the young guys while not having to exclusively depend on them.  That's bad news for Harrison. 

 Harrison's only value was as the safe choice to backup Conley.    Everyone knows his upside is limited as a scorer or PG but his size was valuable as a secondary ball-handler to pair with Conley.    Healthy Parsons, Chalmers, and Tyreke greatly lessens his value there.    So now question becomes can he transition to a SG or combo.   Wayne is the much better prospect at SG and Wade has the higher ceiling as a combo.      At this point the only way he can make him self indispensable is by becoming a "Tony Allen level defender that can handle the ball".  That ain't happening in one offseason. 

My new bet is on Martin + Harrison being moved.   Those two are much cheaper to waive than any other option and will have the least amount of impact to team success. 

 

 

 

This was my initial thinking, as well, based mostly on the glut at PG, and the new reports that Martin is on the way out after training camp. The reports about Martin may still well be true. The problem is, if Martin is on his way out, who is the backup to JaMychal Green? The answer just can't be a mix of Parsons and Ennis. And Ivan Rabb is completely unproven (not even any summer league, much less D-League experience) and it would be almost unprecedented for the Grizzlies to rely upon a rookie in the top-10 of the rotation.

Martin is a problematic player. He is by no means an ideal player at his position. His weaknesses include being a less-than-average one-on-one and positional, team defender, having a very low assist percentage, and shooting a poor percentage from the field. He has also developed a reputation for inconsistency. His strengths, however, include being an above-average athlete for the 4, especially with regards to fluidity - he moves more like a 3 than a 4, while also having the strength to play the 4, holding position in the paint and rebounding against big bodies. He is also very versatile for a 4 - he has a nice looking stroke that extends to the three-point line, can put the ball on the floor and attack the rim off the dribble, has a pretty good feel around the rim and can find ways to finish, and really is an incredible finisher at the rim. He is at his best as a high-energy athlete, running the floor in transition, crashing boards and getting put backs. He really disappears if he doesn't bring high energy to the game and/or if his jumpshot isn't falling. And that happens fairly often.

Ideally, you would hope for Martin to develop a little more intellectually and emotionally, particularly on the defensive end. If he could learn to be in the right positions defensively, and to really develop the fundamentals on the defensive glass (keeping his man off off the boards, controlling his area, going after out of area rebounds), then I think Martin would actually project really nicely over the next five years, even if his offensive game stagnates. But you would also think, because his stroke looks so good mechanically, that given playing time, his percentages on open jumpers would go up.

I don't love Martin, personally. He looked terrible in summer league. And I typically like players with more intelligence. But, what are the Grizzlies going to do if they get rid of him? And, just cutting him seems rather drastic. 

 

 

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On 10/1/2017 at 2:50 AM, smit-tay griz said:

You don't have to like how he does it, but the FACT is that Wright is proven to be a better scorer than Martin.  No, he doesn't take opponents off the dribble, he doesn't need to.  He knows how to position himself to receive a pass, something that maybe Martin should think about learning.  I don't know about you but I would much rather have a player who understands how to play team basketball by being where he is supposed to be, and who shot nearly 30% better from the field last season, than a guy who is just going to put his head down and drive and get rejected at the rim which is what I saw Martin do far too many times last season.  I know you don't like his being vocal about his unhappiness with his minutes, but he is very, very far from the first player to do this - even on this team.

What's the point, can't you see everyone besides MC< MG and CP look to pass the ball all the time. Apparently none of the others have a green light to shoot

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4 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

Highlight films are ...

 

highlight films.  I'm sure there are Brandan Wright highlight films as well, though I doubt you bothered to look at any.  Wright has demonstrated that, when healthy, he is very good at what he brings.  The health issue is the real question mark with Wright.  If Martin suddenly "gets it" and takes a huge step I'm all for it, but he will have to take a huge step to be as efficient as Wright.  For his career Wright shoots about 61% from the field.  Martin, on the other hand, shoots at 42% and got much worse in his second season at 38% despite getting more opportunities.  Look, neither one of these guys is a make or break player for the Grizzlies, and if the FO decides that Wright is not what they're looking for, or no longer wants to take a chance on his health I'm fine with that.  If they decide that Jarrell is not improving fast enough and it's time to move on, I'll be fine with that too.  I just hope that whoever they keep contributes.

  

almost every play in these highlight (and any highlight you watch of wright) is the same there is very little versatility to his offensive game...its the same play over and over again..plus what he is good at is easy to replace...imo DD can bring the same thing wright does to the team (an athletic big that can run the floor,catch lobs and block a shot every now and then...with martin I don't see another big that is going to bring what he brings (ballhanding,shooting range rebounding,speed and toughness)..imo we need what martin brings to the table more than wright.

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3 hours ago, Herodotus said:

Comparing Wright to Martin straight up as is being done is inappropriate. Brandan Wright is a 5 with limited offensive ability, who cannot transition to the 4 in today's NBA at all. Jarrell Martin is a 4, with some capacity to slide to the 3, and maybe, maybe slide to the 5 if needed. So, they barely overlap on the depth chart, if at all. 

The problem with the roster is that there is no depth at the 4. It's JaMychal Green, Jarrell Martin, maybe Chandler Parsons in small-ball lineups, and then maybe, maybe Ivan Rabb. If Jarrell Martin is eliminated from the roster, then another adjustment has to be made, because there's a hole at 4. 

Brandan Wright is battling with Deyonta Davis to back up Gasol at the 5. Both Wright and Davis are defensive centers with no ability to slide to the 4. It is more productive to compare Davis to Wright and to discuss which of them should the second on the depth chart. My view is that the Grizzlies should commit to Davis as the principal backup to Marc, and get rid of Wright. 

If the Grizzlies get rid of Wright and Harrison, that maintains balance on the roster without having to make another move. So, if they're not going to get rid of Brandan Wright, then, because the depth glut is at point guard (Conley, Chalmers, Harrison, Baldwin, Simmons), I would think they would want to get rid of two point guards. And, if not Harrison, then who would that be? Chalmers and Simmons? 

simmons is on a two-way contract...so I doubt it would be him...and this Is the thing with wright we have a young guy who could become a stud that brings the same thing to the table as wright...also you are right about the pf situations...we don't have many true pf on the roster and martin is one of them.

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Most aggravating thing about this roster crunch is the signing of Rade.   Dude has no business being in the NBA right now.   He makes Chandler look like Usain Bolt athletically.   

Rade needs more time in G-League or Europe to gain strength and speed.   He is wasting a very precious roster spot and we are going to lose more proven players because he came over.    Wallace isn't very bright.  

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28 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Most aggravating thing about this roster crunch is the signing of Rade.   Dude has no business being in the NBA right now.   He makes Chandler look like Usain Bolt athletically.   

Rade needs more time in G-League or Europe to gain strength and speed.   He is wasting a very precious roster spot and we are going to lose more proven players because he came over.    Wallace isn't very bright.  

Is his potential high enough to keep around anyway? He definetely needs more time in Europe based on Summer League performance.

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Just now, Dwash said:

Is his potential high enough to keep around anyway? He definetely needs more time in Europe based on Summer League performance.

A slow unathletic SF with some ball-handling, shooting and playmaking skills?  We already have that covered with Parsons and Brooks.  I don't see where his potential is higher than Jarrell.  If i had a choice i'd keep both Jarrell and Baldwin over him.   Wasn't he a second round pick too?

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16 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

A slow unathletic SF with some ball-handling, shooting and playmaking skills?  We already have that covered with Parsons and Brooks.  I don't see where his potential is higher than Jarrell.  If i had a choice i'd keep both Jarrell and Baldwin over him.   Wasn't he a second round pick too?

He was a high second round pick like 5th I think. Although that could have been a gross overdraft.  But with 3 SF on deck I just didnt see the need to sign him from the beginning. He seems like he could be a Joe Ingles type who I like cause he is smart but right now he isnt ready.

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Rade is going to be in the D-League (G-League, whatever). You have to think of him as a rookie, on par with Dillon Brooks and Ivan Rabb. Rade has a high IQ and a versatile skill set. Everyone has said this from the beginning, but one of the most important developmental items they will be looking for him to work on is his three-point shooting. They've said from the beginning that he needs to develop that shot in order to make it in the NBA. Otherwise, for his size, he can really put the ball on the floor, create, and make plays. When he has had his moments, I thought he has looked like he belongs on the court with the rest of our wings. I've never thought that he looks out of place. Time will tell.

I'm actually more perplexed by the signing of Rabb, because you had to get Rade over from Europe. I wonder whether the intent was to sign Rebb to a two-way, and then he and his agent rejected that, forcing the Grizz to sign him to one of the 15 guaranteed roster contracts. I suspect this might have been one of the most significant developments contributing to the roster glut they are faced with. And Rabb most definitely is not going to contribute on the varsity team this year. He'll be down at the Landers Center, buddying up with Zagorac. 
 

 

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I hear you guys but skilled Europeans players with size and limited athleticism are a dime a dozen.   

I have been thinking after last nights game and looking at roster situation.   What if CW throws us a huge curveball and moves on from BOTH Harrison and Wade??   

We have a glut of guards in general and neither Drew nor Wade project out to being anything more than very average PG.   They both seemed destined if they stay on to be combos.    Kobi actually seems to be the better prospect as a dynamic PG than either of those guys.  Baldwin isn't more athletic than him and isn't that much bigger.   Harrison is just average to below average in every way except his size.  

Last nights game showed that typically they will be sharing a backcourt with true PG's Mike or Rio at all times anyway.  So they will more likely be lining up at the 2 more than the 1.    This is a problem this season because we now have more legitimate guys to develop at the 2 over them.   Ennis, Wayne, Ben, and Tyreke all are better options at the 2.    Ennis, Brooks, Rade, and Parsons are all better at the 3.   This leaves them as bottom of rotation when it comes to getting minutes this season to develop.  

As others have discussed we are technically low on experience when it comes to PF.   JaM helps a lot and moving Parsons to the 4 does as well.  However,  what if Parsons is out time again?  Is playing Ennis at backup 4 a solution, Rabb, DD or Wright?    Martin as backup 4 is more valuable than either Wade or Harrison as currently constructed.    DD needs to stay because he is only big that projects to be a true-rim protector on the roster.  

Kobi can be a better version of Wade and Tyreke is already a 10x better version over Harrison.   I think if i had my druthers i would seriously consider trading those two instead of Martin. 

 

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3 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Most aggravating thing about this roster crunch is the signing of Rade.   Dude has no business being in the NBA right now.   He makes Chandler look like Usain Bolt athletically.   

Rade needs more time in G-League or Europe to gain strength and speed.   He is wasting a very precious roster spot and we are going to lose more proven players because he came over.    Wallace isn't very bright.  

Rebounding dont even matter, i suppose

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1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I hear you guys but skilled Europeans players with size and limited athleticism are a dime a dozen.   

I have been thinking after last nights game and looking at roster situation.   What if CW throws us a huge curveball and moves on from BOTH Harrison and Wade??   

We have a glut of guards in general and neither Drew nor Wade project out to being anything more than very average PG.   They both seemed destined if they stay on to be combos.    Kobi actually seems to be the better prospect as a dynamic PG than either of those guys.  Baldwin isn't more athletic than him and isn't that much bigger.   Harrison is just average to below average in every way except his size.  

Last nights game showed that typically they will be sharing a backcourt with true PG's Mike or Rio at all times anyway.  So they will more likely be lining up at the 2 more than the 1.    This is a problem this season because we now have more legitimate guys to develop at the 2 over them.   Ennis, Wayne, Ben, and Tyreke all are better options at the 2.    Ennis, Brooks, Rade, and Parsons are all better at the 3.   This leaves them as bottom of rotation when it comes to getting minutes this season to develop.  

As others have discussed we are technically low on experience when it comes to PF.   JaM helps a lot and moving Parsons to the 4 does as well.  However,  what if Parsons is out time again?  Is playing Ennis at backup 4 a solution, Rabb, DD or Wright?    Martin as backup 4 is more valuable than either Wade or Harrison as currently constructed.    DD needs to stay because he is only big that projects to be a true-rim protector on the roster.  

Kobi can be a better version or Wade and Tyreke is already a 10x better version over Harrison.   I think if i had my druthers i would seriously consider trading those two instead of Martin. 

 

Rade reminds me of this guy, Bostjan Nachbar, who sucked big time btw.  You never know with these European players, its not like anyone has ever seen them play.  A scout checking them out a few times overseas is not good enough to really get a feel for them.  It's like playing the lottery versus scouting a local player where you can talk with former coaches and the player development system is more similar to what they will actually see in the NBA.  Euroleauge games are not good for deciding how good a player will be over here.

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Why do I feel the need to laugh when I read the same posters who have led the jeers at coaches for not playing young talent immediately criticizing rookies after their first pre-season game? 

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2 hours ago, Herodotus said:

Rade is going to be in the D-League (G-League, whatever). You have to think of him as a rookie, on par with Dillon Brooks and Ivan Rabb. Rade has a high IQ and a versatile skill set. Everyone has said this from the beginning, but one of the most important developmental items they will be looking for him to work on is his three-point shooting. They've said from the beginning that he needs to develop that shot in order to make it in the NBA. Otherwise, for his size, he can really put the ball on the floor, create, and make plays. When he has had his moments, I thought he has looked like he belongs on the court with the rest of our wings. I've never thought that he looks out of place. Time will tell.

I'm actually more perplexed by the signing of Rabb, because you had to get Rade over from Europe. I wonder whether the intent was to sign Rebb to a two-way, and then he and his agent rejected that, forcing the Grizz to sign him to one of the 15 guaranteed roster contracts. I suspect this might have been one of the most significant developments contributing to the roster glut they are faced with. And Rabb most definitely is not going to contribute on the varsity team this year. He'll be down at the Landers Center, buddying up with Zagorac. 
 

 

Rabb is potentially the most complete big man we have outside of Gasol.     Remember the situation his was drafted under

  1. FO was moving on from Zbo
  2. JaMychal was a RFA
  3. Jarrell didn't look like a longterm solution
  4. Davis still needs development
  5. Parsons uncertainty

We needed another true Big.     Reality is they were planning on building this roster out on the cheap aside from the Big3.   best way to do that is with draft picks and that's why they splurged.  

I think these factors throw everything off further

  1. JaM negotiation taking too long
  2. Rio being healthy
  3. Wade still being garbage
  4. Davis looking like garbage
  5. Jarrell looking bad now looking good
  6. Rade agent forcing his way over by threatening to stay in europe if he can't come now.
  7. Rabb injury
  8. Wayne looking like a gem

All these factors add up to where we are today - flux. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Rabb is potentially the most complete big man we have outside of Gasol.     Remember the situation his was drafted under

  1. FO was moving on from Zbo
  2. JaMychal was a RFA
  3. Jarrell didn't look like a longterm solution
  4. Davis still needs development
  5. Parsons uncertainty

We needed another true Big.     Reality is they were planning on building this roster out on the cheap aside from the Big3.   best way to do that is with draft picks and that's why they splurged.  

I think these factors throw everything off further

  1. JaM negotiation taking too long
  2. Rio being healthy
  3. Wade still being garbage
  4. Davis looking like garbage
  5. Jarrell looking bad now looking good
  6. Rade agent forcing his way over by threatening to stay in europe if he can't come now.
  7. Rabb injury
  8. Wayne looking like a gem

All these factors add up to where we are today - flux. 

 

 

I think i misunderstood your previous post. I thought you were saying rabb, but you said rade, which i agree with both your assessments on them.

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At this point, Im done guessing on who they will cut. Maybe Im just really hoping they all do well which is for the best coz I love my Grizzlies... 

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Not really sure if Wallace is planning on cutting the number of players we need to lose or making a trade instead. Thinking about the later one... Would you do this one and do you think the more than 10M savings would be enough for Denver despite getting close to nothing to put on the floor?

GRIZZ get Kenneth Faried
NUGGETS get Wright, Martin and Harrison (I could throw Ennis in too)

Denver saves a lot of money for a player they don't want and has been on the trade block for two seasons. We get an athletic freak that can actually rebound, run the floor like a deer and that could pair up nicely with Marc's outside shooting, IQ and passing ability. On the downside, he's undersized, nothing like a lockdown defender or a stretch four and he's 26M in two years.

PG: Conley - Chalmers - Baldwin
SG: McLemore - Evans - Selden
SF: Parsons - Ennis - Brooks
PF: Green - Faried - Zagorac
C: Gasol - Davis - Rabb

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1 hour ago, misae said:

Not really sure if Wallace is planning on cutting the number of players we need to lose or making a trade instead. Thinking about the later one... Would you do this one and do you think the more than 10M savings would be enough for Denver despite getting close to nothing to put on the floor?

GRIZZ get Kenneth Faried
NUGGETS get Wright, Martin and Harrison (I could throw Ennis in too)

Denver saves a lot of money for a player they don't want and has been on the trade block for two seasons. We get an athletic freak that can actually rebound, run the floor like a deer and that could pair up nicely with Marc's outside shooting, IQ and passing ability. On the downside, he's undersized, nothing like a lockdown defender or a stretch four and he's 26M in two years.

PG: Conley - Chalmers - Baldwin
SG: McLemore - Evans - Selden
SF: Parsons - Ennis - Brooks
PF: Green - Faried - Zagorac
C: Gasol - Davis - Rabb

you just got rid of that guy in the trade...martin does all of that

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7 hours ago, PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan said:

you just got rid of that guy in the trade...martin does all of that

Hasn't so far... If he'd had, we wouldn't even be discussing him being cut, as we were. He could arguably have the potential, but hasn't show anything consistent even in summer league, where he shoud be supposed to dominate. 

He's not an asset for me, as it isn't Wright for his inability to stay healthy. We desperately need depth inside and with a trade like this one we would get some in exchange for nothing (but $$). We only have 2 proven NBA players in Marc and Jam, and Jam is not precisely an All-Star caliber player. We could bet on Davis and Rabb, but it's a huge gamble.

Other possibilities we could explore are Vucevic or Monroe, but are less versatile and I guess more difficult to get. Also O'Quinn and Okafor, but there we wouldn't have the savings card to play and those are not gonna come for nothing, that is what we have to offer.

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I think Mario is on the block. At the game, he was not sharp on D, not creative on O. His points came on defensive lapses. Harrison is the only experienced guard without a history of injury. He's the keeper.

 I hate to loose Martin. Man! Sure he has had trouble finishing his dramatic drives but so did Rudy for several seasons. Martin is much higher bbiq than Rudy. He surveys the court. Yes we have a hole at the 4 (especially without Martin) but we also have a hole at the 3. We still have no creative wings at that spot unless Mac can slide over. Here again we miss Martin's skillset. It's no use crying over spilt milk, though, right?

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16 hours ago, PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan said:

you just got rid of that guy in the trade...martin does all of that

no way is Martin as athletic as Faried

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