PutARingOnIt#GrizzFan

I have to give Wallace his props..this team really has few flaw besides injury concerns

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18 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Different circumstances - nothing is ever apples to apples like you tend to try to make it.  

Joerger was only thinking about the present while he overplayed his aging vets and forsaken his young players.    So winning maybe one game with that aging team playing an old style was basically meaningless.   That team couldn't compete with the best in the west 2yrs in a row as history showed. 

This season with the oldest guys being  Mike (30) Rio(31)Marc(33) and implementing new style of play while developing youngsters.  If we make the playoffs with our current team and situation that actually shows me a very promising future. 

However, this season the Grizzlies have their #1 draft pick unlike last season and next season. Wouldn't this be the proper season to try and reach for the golden draft pick while giving the younger players experience at the same time? 

If it was better to lose in the past surely this season with no chance at all of winning it all it makes sense to do so. 

I was against losing then and am still against it now but those who advocated losing in the past should at least be pondering the thought of this season, right from the start, emphasizing development over broken down veterans like Chalmers, Parsons and Tyreke. Heck, Evans and Chalmers are only playing on one year contracts anyway. 

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3 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

However, this season the Grizzlies have their #1 draft pick unlike last season and next season. Wouldn't this be the proper season to try and reach for the golden draft pick while giving the younger players experience at the same time? 

If it was better to lose in the past surely this season with no chance at all of winning it all it makes sense to do so. 

I was against losing then and am still against it now but those who advocated losing in the past should at least be pondering the thought of this season, right from the start, emphasizing development over broken down veterans like Chalmers, Parsons and Tyreke. Heck, Evans and Chalmers are only playing on one year contracts anyway. 

I was never in the blow it up for a draft pick crowd anyway.    Draft picks are very risky propositions to begin with(especially here).  Just because a guy is deemed a lottery pick doesn't mean he will be a success.   still need to have  the proper situation and development team in place in order for him to have an impact.   We have had multiple heralded lottery picks during the Conley era (Rudy, OJ, Thabeet, Xavier)  how many of them changed the fortunes of the team??

Call me crazy (sure you will) but i think we have some decent prospects on the team right now - that should be developed.  Wayne, Davis, Dillan, and Rade.  You can even throw former top 5 pick Ben into that mix too.    Show me Fiz can coax "greatness" out of them before i think tanking is a good option. 

Besides we have a "breakglass" option to get a decent lottery pick if our season is looking bad.   We can trade Gasol for a  top 15 pick im sure.  Then the blow it up crowd can break out the champagne.  

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56 minutes ago, Michael D said:

Heck no!  I'd rather take my chances with making the playoffs.  Every team is an injury away from getting bounced out, always.  Even Golden State.  All it takes is the chips falling our way and we can sneak out of the first round.  As long as Marc and Mike are in their primes we will not be an easy out.

Drafting players in the lottery is not the way to go.  Look at Philadelphia, New Orleans, Orlando, Sacramento, and Brooklyn.  They perpetually suck.  I wouldn't trade places with any of those teams.  Draft picks suck because they are inexperienced and unless you get a Shaq or Lebron, they will not turn your program around.

You can add Minnesota to that list to.  If they did not get Thibs and trade for guys like Jimmy Butler they would not have any chance of making the playoffs. Drafting got the Timberwolves Karl Anthony-Towns, Rubio, Zach Lavine, Kris Dunn, and a whole lot of LOSING. Back to the lottery every year!  (while the Grizz make the playoffs every year) Getting Wiggins, the number one pick from Cleveland did nothing for them.

Yeah and recent draft picks is what got Minnesota Jimmy Butler. I mean you do see that too dont you lol. They are also cheap which allows you the room to make free agent signings (like Teague) when the time comes. Like Teague probably signed their cause.he saw competitive team and they had the room to sign him cause guys like Towns and Wiggins who made them competitve were also cheap.

Stop being so narrow minded. Most competitive teams (especially small market) are heavily built through the draft. This doesnt mean that every player on their team was a direct pick. Rather, the resources or flexibility to get most of their key players can usually be linked back to good drafting in some way, shape or form.

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3 hours ago, Dwash said:

Yeah and recent draft picks is what got Minnesota Jimmy Butler. I mean you do see that too dont you lol. They are also cheap which allows you the room to make free agent signings (like Teague) when the time comes. Like Teague probably signed their cause.he saw competitive team and they had the room to sign him cause guys like Towns and Wiggins who made them competitve were also cheap.

Stop being so narrow minded. Most competitive teams (especially small market) are heavily built through the draft. This doesnt mean that every player on their team was a direct pick. Rather, the resources or flexibility to get most of their key players can usually be linked back to good drafting in some way, shape or form.

I don't know man, the draft and tanking is not working for any of the other teams I mentioned (Philadelphia, New Orleans, Orlando, Sacramento, and Brooklyn).  Heck Orlando was able to entice Frank Vogel off of the appeal of their young talent and they still suck.  Winners are maintained through superior player development and scouting, finding gems in the developmental league, overseas and players that are in the league already that just need a chance to shine, taking advantage of another team's logjam at a position and getting a guy that has starter potential, free agency and of course trades.

I think drafting is a crapshoot.  Anthony Davis is one of the best big men in the league and the New Orleans Pelicans still suck.  Philly always has a top pick.  They've been tanking forever trying to get talent on rookie deals.  They suck big time.  If the Lakers did not stand a good chance of getting a top free agent they would suck.  They should have been included on that list above but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt to turn it around now that they've brought in Magic and Kobe's old agent to run the team.  The Lakers are going to suck this year though, just like they have for the last four years.  Drafting is only a small part of building a team.

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1 hour ago, Michael D said:

I don't know man, the draft and tanking is not working for any of the other teams I mentioned (Philadelphia, New Orleans, Orlando, Sacramento, and Brooklyn).  Heck Orlando was able to entice Frank Vogel off of the appeal of their young talent and they still suck.  Winners are maintained through superior player development and scouting, finding gems in the developmental league, overseas and players that are in the league already that just need a chance to shine, taking advantage of another team's logjam at a position and getting a guy that has starter potential, free agency and of course trades.

I think drafting is a crapshoot.  Anthony Davis is one of the best big men in the league and the New Orleans Pelicans still suck.  Philly always has a top pick.  They've been tanking forever trying to get talent on rookie deals.  They suck big time.  If the Lakers did not stand a good chance of getting a top free agent they would suck.  They should have been included on that list above but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt to turn it around now that they've brought in Magic and Kobe's old agent to run the team.  The Lakers are going to suck this year though, just like they have for the last four years.  Drafting is only a small part of building a team.

I dont get what in the heck people are talking about when they say "crapshoot." Every way to get talent is a crapshoot. Was giving 94 million to Parsons a "crapshoot?" Heck l, was committing 60 million a year to Conley and Gasol when they are in their mid 30's was that not a crapshoot? What way of building isnt a "crapshoot??" Somebody please tell me.

Most of the playoff teams relied heavily on picks to fill their roster OR traded players they drafted to acquire talent in trades. I really dont think its even necessary to name these teams cause its so many. Not sure why you are harping on Orlando and Sacramento. 

There are three ways to get talent. Draft, free agency and trades.

There is very little evidence of a team building through free agency. In free agency, you are paying for a players past performance. Not what he projects to be. His best years are usually behind him. This is a good tool to use after you develop your core but you will not likely find your foundation pieces here.

In a trade sometimes you can win, especially if you are trading potential for current performance or vice versa. In the end, you have to give something to get something. So where are you actually going to get the players from to make the trades?? Uhhhh, the draft!!

The draft is the place where you consistently get players who can potentially out perform their contracts and will be in their prime during their years when they are making big bucks. 

Also, from a development standpoint, if your team isnt very good you will have more minutes and chances to give to any young player. So this extends to even the players who arent high picks.

You also will have what other teams covet in trades which is young players on a good contract and cost controlled for several years.

We can toil around with this boring .500 team all you want but eventually they gonna have to actually utilize picks to get any better. You can do what Boston did which is sell what you got (Rondo, KG, Pierce  Green) and get a head start on the game. Or you can wait until they die completely in 2 years, spend another year or two waiting on them to come off your books, then play the same drafting game with only your own picks.

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6 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Different circumstances - nothing is ever apples to apples like you tend to try to make it.  

Joerger was only thinking about the present while he overplayed his aging vets and forsaken his young players.    So winning maybe one game with that aging team playing an old style was basically meaningless.   That team couldn't compete with the best in the west 2yrs in a row as history showed. 

This season with the oldest guys being  Mike (30) Rio(31)Marc(33) and implementing new style of play while developing youngsters.  If we make the playoffs with our current team and situation that actually shows me a very promising future. 

You forget that Joerger didn't have any talent in his younger players, so who was supposed to get playing time over the older vets?  How many of those youngsters are still around?

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1 hour ago, Dwash said:

I dont get what in the heck people are talking about when they say "crapshoot." Every way to get talent is a crapshoot. Was giving 94 million to Parsons a "crapshoot?" Heck l, was committing 60 million a year to Conley and Gasol when they are in their mid 30's was that not a crapshoot? What way of building isnt a "crapshoot??" Somebody please tell me.

Most of the playoff teams relied heavily on picks to fill their roster OR traded players they drafted to acquire talent in trades. I really dont think its even necessary to name these teams cause its so many. Not sure why you are harping on Orlando and Sacramento. 

There are three ways to get talent. Draft, free agency and trades.

There is very little evidence of a team building through free agency. In free agency, you are paying for a players past performance. Not what he projects to be. His best years are usually behind him. This is a good tool to use after you develop your core but you will not likely find your foundation pieces here.

In a trade sometimes you can win, especially if you are trading potential for current performance or vice versa. In the end, you have to give something to get something. So where are you actually going to get the players from to make the trades?? Uhhhh, the draft!!

The draft is the place where you consistently get players who can potentially out perform their contracts and will be in their prime during their years when they are making big bucks. 

Also, from a development standpoint, if your team isnt very good you will have more minutes and chances to give to any young player. So this extends to even the players who arent high picks.

You also will have what other teams covet in trades which is young players on a good contract and cost controlled for several years.

We can toil around with this boring .500 team all you want but eventually they gonna have to actually utilize picks to get any better. You can do what Boston did which is sell what you got (Rondo, KG, Pierce  Green) and get a head start on the game. Or you can wait until they die completely in 2 years, spend another year or two waiting on them to come off your books, then play the same drafting game with only your own picks.

Miami comes to mind.  LBJ, Bosh, Miller, Battier, ...etc.  Cleveland has had a lot of free agency signings as well, but I would agree that it's not the norm.  Overall I would say your post is generally correct, but a little luck helps too.

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1 hour ago, smit-tay griz said:

Miami comes to mind.  LBJ, Bosh, Miller, Battier, ...etc.  Cleveland has had a lot of free agency signings as well, but I would agree that it's not the norm.  Overall I would say your post is generally correct, but a little luck helps too.

I still think free agency is the last piece. They are an exception but it likely doesnt happen if Wade isnt there already. Just like Durant doesnt move to GSW without what was already in place.

Even look at Lebron moving back to Cleveland. They drafted Kyrie, Thompson and traded Wiggins/Bennett/Miami pick (acquired for Lebron) for Love. If they dont have those pieces in place this doesnt happen. And most importantly  is that these great pieces were on cheap rookie deals, which gave them the space to sign Lebron in the first place.  Another indirect benefit of draft building.

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9 hours ago, Dwash said:

I still think free agency is the last piece. They are an exception but it likely doesnt happen if Wade isnt there already. Just like Durant doesnt move to GSW without what was already in place.

Even look at Lebron moving back to Cleveland. They drafted Kyrie, Thompson and traded Wiggins/Bennett/Miami pick (acquired for Lebron) for Love. If they dont have those pieces in place this doesnt happen. And most importantly  is that these great pieces were on cheap rookie deals, which gave them the space to sign Lebron in the first place.  Another indirect benefit of draft building.

Yes, agreed, some good player foundation has to be there to lure free agents.  It also helps immensely to be an attractive location.

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11 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

You forget that Joerger didn't have any talent in his younger players, so who was supposed to get playing time over the older vets?  How many of those youngsters are still around?

Not true - Joerger had:

Seth Curry,  Ed Davis, Jordan Adams, Jamaal Franklin, Nick Calathes (didn't play him till Bayless got traded), Jamychal Green, Jarnell Stokes,  James Johnson (27 which was young at the time) and James Ennis.    

Not going to rehash but Dave's problem was that even when guys did produce (Ed, and JJ for example)  He still wouldn't keep them in the rotation.  He ONLY played rookies when given no other options and buried them as soon as he could.   

I didn't forget anything about ole Joerger and he took that same attitude into SAC.   It wasn't until they dumped all the vets that he played the youngsters there.  

Man don't get me started on him.  He is the one coach of the Grizz i despise because he was a snake.   The other guys were largely just incompetent(IBarone, Lowe, etc) or a-holes (Hollins, Czar).  Joerger was a lowdown petty back-stabbing double-talker.  I don't care that he was an okay coach because he has such low character.    

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3 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Not true - Joerger had:

Seth Curry,  Ed Davis, Jordan Adams, Jamaal Franklin, Nick Calathes (didn't play him till Bayless got traded), Jamychal Green, Jarnell Stokes,  James Johnson (27 which was young at the time) and James Ennis.    

Not going to rehash but Dave's problem was that even when guys did produce (Ed, and JJ for example)  He still wouldn't keep them in the rotation.  He ONLY played rookies when given no other options and buried them as soon as he could.   

I didn't forget anything about ole Joerger and he took that same attitude into SAC.   It wasn't until they dumped all the vets that he played the youngsters there.  

Man don't get me started on him.  He is the one coach of the Grizz i despise because he was a snake.   The other guys were largely just incompetent(IBarone, Lowe, etc) or a-holes (Hollins, Czar).  Joerger was a lowdown petty back-stabbing double-talker.  I don't care that he was an okay coach because he has such low character.    

Yeah, Joerger did stab Hollins in the back and publicly threw his players under the bus.  On top of that he openly criticized the front office.  Don't know how or why he still has a job in the NBA.

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26 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Not true - Joerger had:

Seth Curry,  Ed Davis, Jordan Adams, Jamaal Franklin, Nick Calathes (didn't play him till Bayless got traded), Jamychal Green, Jarnell Stokes,  James Johnson (27 which was young at the time) and James Ennis.    

Not going to rehash but Dave's problem was that even when guys did produce (Ed, and JJ for example)  He still wouldn't keep them in the rotation.  He ONLY played rookies when given no other options and buried them as soon as he could.   

I didn't forget anything about ole Joerger and he took that same attitude into SAC.   It wasn't until they dumped all the vets that he played the youngsters there.  

Man don't get me started on him.  He is the one coach of the Grizz i despise because he was a snake.   The other guys were largely just incompetent(IBarone, Lowe, etc) or a-holes (Hollins, Czar).  Joerger was a lowdown petty back-stabbing double-talker.  I don't care that he was an okay coach because he has such low character.    

And yet you campaigned hard for him to replace Hollins. 

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37 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Not true - Joerger had:

Seth Curry,  Ed Davis, Jordan Adams, Jamaal Franklin, Nick Calathes (didn't play him till Bayless got traded), Jamychal Green, Jarnell Stokes,  James Johnson (27 which was young at the time) and James Ennis.    

Not going to rehash but Dave's problem was that even when guys did produce (Ed, and JJ for example)  He still wouldn't keep them in the rotation.  He ONLY played rookies when given no other options and buried them as soon as he could.   

I didn't forget anything about ole Joerger and he took that same attitude into SAC.   It wasn't until they dumped all the vets that he played the youngsters there.  

Man don't get me started on him.  He is the one coach of the Grizz i despise because he was a snake.   The other guys were largely just incompetent(IBarone, Lowe, etc) or a-holes (Hollins, Czar).  Joerger was a lowdown petty back-stabbing double-talker.  I don't care that he was an okay coach because he has such low character.    

Gimme a break.  Half of those guys have proven they weren't NBA material and are out of the league.

Seth Curry?  C'mon, we had him for one game and he didn't beat out anyone ahead of him. 

When did he not play Jam?  The short period after we claimed him from the D-League?  What?  Did you expect him to walk in to the rotation.  He actually started a game that season, and the following season appeared in more games than any other Grizzlies player getting 18.5 minutes per game.  I guess we should have cut Zach Randolph to make way for Green?!!

Davis wasn't all that and still isn't.

James Johnson showed it was more important to showcase his skills rather than follow the coach's gameplan.

Those guys received minutes commensurate with the ability they demonstrated.

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1 hour ago, smit-tay griz said:

Gimme a break.  Half of those guys have proven they weren't NBA material and are out of the league.

Seth Curry?  C'mon, we had him for one game and he didn't beat out anyone ahead of him. 

When did he not play Jam?  The short period after we claimed him from the D-League?  What?  Did you expect him to walk in to the rotation.  He actually started a game that season, and the following season appeared in more games than any other Grizzlies player getting 18.5 minutes per game.  I guess we should have cut Zach Randolph to make way for Green?!!

Davis wasn't all that and still isn't.

James Johnson showed it was more important to showcase his skills rather than follow the coach's gameplan.

Those guys received minutes commensurate with the ability they demonstrated.

But not commensurate with GTF's vision

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3 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

But not commensurate with GTF's vision

I'm starting to think that he thinks every player should get equal time on the floor... and everybody gets a prize!

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2 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

I'm starting to think that he thinks every player should get equal time on the floor... and everybody gets a prize!

On the court maybe but definitely NOT on these boards  :P:P

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3 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

Gimme a break.  Half of those guys have proven they weren't NBA material and are out of the league.

Seth Curry?  C'mon, we had him for one game and he didn't beat out anyone ahead of him. 

When did he not play Jam?  The short period after we claimed him from the D-League?  What?  Did you expect him to walk in to the rotation.  He actually started a game that season, and the following season appeared in more games than any other Grizzlies player getting 18.5 minutes per game.  I guess we should have cut Zach Randolph to make way for Green?!!

Davis wasn't all that and still isn't.

James Johnson showed it was more important to showcase his skills rather than follow the coach's gameplan.

Those guys received minutes commensurate with the ability they demonstrated.

Curry, Davis, Johnson, Ennis, and Whiteside all played under Dave and all have gone on to prove they are legit NBA starters/rotation players.   

Not gonna rehash this with you guys that still falsely believe all coaches are completely unbiased in their use of team talent. 

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2 hours ago, chipc3 said:

But not commensurate with GTF's vision

Fizdale shares basically the same vision.  Or have you purposely overlooked that?

 

3 hours ago, chipc3 said:

And yet you campaigned hard for him to replace Hollins. 

Yep and would do it again.   Just like i campaigned for him to go when he showed his true colors. 

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Just now, GrizzTigerFan said:

Fizdale shares basically the same vision.  Or have you purposely overlooked that?

 

Yep and would do it again.   Just like i campaigned for him to go when he showed his true colors. 

I'll wait until you change your opinion on Fizdale. It's just a matter of time. After all, he has the worst win/loss percentage of any Grizzlies coach in the last decade. 

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4 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I'll wait until you change your opinion on Fizdale. It's just a matter of time. After all, he has the worst win/loss percentage of any Grizzlies coach in the last decade. 

Give me about 25 more games. 

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On 9/11/2017 at 8:35 AM, chipc3 said:

Getting help and getting Parsons are clearly two different things. I also don't believe Conley "demands" were that serious. If he really wanted more help he could have taken a smaller salary which could have enabled the Grizzlies to bring in more and better players. 

I agree.  Mike set himself and his family up for life and much of his children's lives with that contract and no other team could have offered him that.  Mike was at the right place at the right time on the right team to get 5 yrs/$150M.  No one else would have paid Mike $30M per year except MEM.  I dont think Mike was going anywhere and I wouldnt have either.  He still gets to play with his good friend Marc and if they make a run or two in the playoffs, even better, but Mike got paid--let me back up--Mike got OVERPAID and I am so happy for him.  He hit the jackpot.  He could have said just pay me $20M a year and use the other $10M to get another player or two, but he didnt.  

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On 9/27/2017 at 9:00 AM, GrizzTigerFan said:

Not true - Joerger had:

Seth Curry,  Ed Davis, Jordan Adams, Jamaal Franklin, Nick Calathes (didn't play him till Bayless got traded), Jamychal Green, Jarnell Stokes,  James Johnson (27 which was young at the time) and James Ennis.    

Not going to rehash but Dave's problem was that even when guys did produce (Ed, and JJ for example)  He still wouldn't keep them in the rotation.  He ONLY played rookies when given no other options and buried them as soon as he could.   

I didn't forget anything about ole Joerger and he took that same attitude into SAC.   It wasn't until they dumped all the vets that he played the youngsters there.  

Man don't get me started on him.  He is the one coach of the Grizz i despise because he was a snake.   The other guys were largely just incompetent(IBarone, Lowe, etc) or a-holes (Hollins, Czar).  Joerger was a lowdown petty back-stabbing double-talker.  I don't care that he was an okay coach because he has such low character.    

Got agree with GTF on the rookie playing by Joerger.  He simply would not do it unless there was no other option. As far as being a back stabber, well, he saw a chance to get one of only 30 jobs like it in the world--a HC gig in the NBA.  If Lionel doesnt overplay his hand, he probably wouldnt have been let go like he was but he did.  Joerger saw an opportunity and he seized it.  Might not be the way I would do it, but I dont know that he is a complete snake because of it.  

In the end, I think he wanted to stay in MEM and just wanted some stability as far as his contract status was concerned.  When Wallace declined to give him an extension, Dave was left with no choice but to seek a job somewhere else.  He would have been foolish not to.   Dave knows basketball.  I think he is a bright young coach, but his reliance on veterans and his phobia about playing younger players are definitely some of his shortcomings.

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3 hours ago, smit-tay griz said:

I'll never understand folks who think that in paid professional sports rookies should be gifted playing time instead of earning it.

Well I think teams takes rookies on their POTENTIAL and they need to play to expand it. Just because you have a player that may be better at that time don't mean the rookie won't be better if given the chance.

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