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21 minutes ago, LuvThem Grizzlies said:

Have you ever read about the Isreali attack on the USS Liberty?

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/israel-attacks-uss-liberty

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I've read Mein Kampf. You don't need to read revisionist history from alt-right or alt-left propaganda. Read Hitler's own words and make up your own minds. 

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25 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I've read Mein Kampf. You don't need to read revisionist history from alt-right or alt-left propaganda. Read Hitler's own words and make up your own minds. 

Thank you! 

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I'd like to add a little more background to when and why these statues where erected. In the book "Slavery By Another Name" Douglas A. Blackmon makes a convincing case that because of, among other things, vagrancy laws and forced labor to pay off court and prison fees that slavery in the South did not end until after WW2.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89051115

Quote

On March 30, 1908, Green Cottenham was arrested by the sheriff of Shelby County, Alabama, and charged with "vagrancy." Cottenham had committed no true crime. Vagrancy, the offense of a person not being able to prove at a given moment that he or she is employed, was a new and flimsy concoction dredged up from legal obscurity at the end of the nineteenth century by the state legislatures of Alabama and other southern states. It was capriciously enforced by local sheriffs and constables, adjudicated by mayors and notaries public, recorded haphazardly or not at all in court records, and, most tellingly in a time of massive unemployment among all southern men, was reserved almost exclusively for black men. Cottenham's offense was blackness.

After three days behind bars, twenty-two-year-old Cottenham was found guilty in a swift appearance before the county judge and immediately sentenced to a thirty-day term of hard labor. Unable to pay the array of fees assessed on every prisoner—fees to the sheriff, the deputy, the court clerk, the witnesses—Cottenham's sentence was extended to nearly a year of hard labor.

The next day, Cottenham, the youngest of nine children born to former slaves in an adjoining county, was sold. Under a standing arrangement between the county and a vast subsidiary of the industrial titan of the North—U.S. Steel Corporation—the sheriff turned the young man over to the company for the duration of his sentence. In return, the subsidiary, Tennessee Coal, Iron & Railroad Company, gave the county $12 a month to pay off Cottenham's fine and fees. What the company's managers did with Cottenham, and thousands of other black men they purchased from sheriffs across Alabama, was entirely up to them.

Even folks not caught up in this net were subject to it because it meant that you had to get permission from your "employer" to do just about anything that involved freedom of movement or opportunity.

Along with the historical context of the building of the monuments, there is the unworthiness of the honorees. Today, we probably wouldn't know the names on any of those statues if not for the war (and later groups like the Daughters of the Confederacy.) Most were wealthy and well educated patricians, West Point graduates and attendees. Average folks may not have known, but they knew about the dim hope of defeating the industrial and military power of the North. They were not brave. Its not bravery to turn your backs on your fellow soldiers and take up arms against them and your country in a lost cause, and for what, to prop up a corrupt system. When I was a kid I admired them, but there comes a time when you have to face facts. Bravery would have been to tell the politicians, "NO."

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6 hours ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

They can easily be put in a museum to remind us of history. Once again, this story lays out when these statues were erected and why:

Confederate Statues Were Built To Further A 'White Supremacist Future'

I just don't see why something like that should be honored in public parks. It's fine for a museum though. Museums are for history. 

I don't think you can put Mount Rushmore in a museum. Again, history is messy.

Colbert weighted in on this: he said  that while Thomas Jefferson and George Washington owned slaved, they also fight for our country and wrote the declaration of independence. All Robert e lee did was secede and fight for slavery.

So, it's okay to be immortalized as long as you write a famous document?

Slavery is trumped by the declaration of independence, which ironically never included black men and women.

In Jefferson's notes to the framing of the declaration of independence, he makes it clear that Slaves had no voice in the document, when he says: that the clause which reprobated the enslaving of the inhabitant of Africa was struck out due to the fact that Georgia and South Carolina never attempted to restrain the import of slaves and they on the contrary still wanted to continue (not restraining it). 

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9 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

I don't think you can put Mount Rushmore in a museum. Again, history is messy.

Colbert weighted in on this: he said  that while Thomas Jefferson and George Washington owned slaved, they also fight for our country and wrote the declaration of independence. All Robert e lee did was secede and fight for slavery.

So, it's okay to be immortalized as long as you write a famous document?

Slavery is trumped by the declaration of independence, which ironically never included black men and women.

In Jefferson's notes to the framing of the declaration of independence, he makes it clear that Slaves had no voice in the document, when he says: that the clause which reprobated the enslaving of the inhabitant of Africa was struck out due to the fact that Georgia and South Carolina never attempted to restrain the import of slaves and they on the contrary still wanted to continue (not restraining it). 

Along with being prime founders, Washington and Jefferson were both presidents of the country. Equating them with Lee and company is clutching at straws. You appear to be blaming Jefferson for deleting mention of slavery in the Declaration. He's the one who put it in. It was Congress that deleted it. Why? Money. The same reason that the monuments were built. They glorify a system that continued to be profitable until the middle of the 20th century.

You are clutching at straws trying to find the high moral ground and stay on the attack. If you followed your own logic, you'd want the statues replaced with something positive.

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10 hours ago, chipc3 said:

I've read Mein Kampf. You don't need to read revisionist history from nazis or people who are against nazis propaganda. Read Hitler's own words and make up your own minds. 

I fixed your post. Comparing fascist people with marxist people is insulting to everyone who has fought against the systematics oppressions of this world.

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11 hours ago, LuvThem Grizzlies said:

But yet you say put them in museums? It would either have to be PUBLIC museums or someone would have to do it with private money, they'd still be where black people could still see them.

Do you understand the concept of a museum? Here, I'll help you. Here's a definition of a museum:

Quote

a building in which objects of historical, scientific, artistic, or cultural interest are stored and exhibited.

I'm finished with this. 

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6 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

I don't think you can put Mount Rushmore in a museum. Again, history is messy.

Colbert weighted in on this: he said  that while Thomas Jefferson and George Washington owned slaved, they also fight for our country and wrote the declaration of independence. All Robert e lee did was secede and fight for slavery.

So, it's okay to be immortalized as long as you write a famous document?

Slavery is trumped by the declaration of independence, which ironically never included black men and women.

In Jefferson's notes to the framing of the declaration of independence, he makes it clear that Slaves had no voice in the document, when he says: that the clause which reprobated the enslaving of the inhabitant of Africa was struck out due to the fact that Georgia and South Carolina never attempted to restrain the import of slaves and they on the contrary still wanted to continue (not restraining it). 

Did Thomas Jefferson and George Washington fight for the Confederacy? The answer is no.

Why are you constantly trying to change the narrative? I'm done with this topic. 

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A low rent blog on a free WordPress hosted site is far from a reliable source on history.  The forum's token anti-semite needs to find something better to back up his/her bigotry. 

I wonder what other minority groups that person hates?  Probably African-Americans since a rabbi co-founded the NAACP they could conveniently hates Jews and Blacks at the same time.

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1 hour ago, JWill4L said:

I fixed your post. Comparing fascist people with marxist people is insulting to everyone who has fought against the systematics oppressions of this world.

You didn't fix my post. You changed it to say what you wanted it to say. that is not what I wanted to say. I meant what I said. 

Quote

I've read Mein Kampf. You don't need to read revisionist history from alt-right or alt-left propaganda. Read Hitler's own words and make up your own minds. 

 

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10 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

You didn't fix my post. You changed it to say what you wanted it to say. that is not what I wanted to say. I meant what I said. 

 

Yeah, I know. Wasn't expecting a better analysis from a guy who thinks that "people have to leave politics to politicians", to be honest.

Again, comparing marxist people to fascist people is offending. The system and the media have made a good job with you. Congrats!

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In my opinion, it is difficult to impress our own realities on those who lived in different time periods.  I think we can and all do agree that slavery is and was bad in any instance.  Regardless of when it was or which people enslaved which..it is not acceptable.  But at various stages in history it was the NORM.  Not just those from Africa but peoples from all parts of the world have had to deal with this scourge.

 

I'd love it if we could, as a people, leave the history where it is and move on with our lives.  I understand that to many there is still a wound and many people tend to pick at scabs...but I'd love to let those heal.  There will always be dung holes of every color forever.  Don't let those people dictate the narrative or prevent healing.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

I hope everyone will take the time to read the Wikipedia coverage of Nathan Bedford Forest especially the post-civil war entry. In that section they discuss how he was associated with the KKK. He probably was the first appointed leader of but found after one year the organization "an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: “It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed.” He ceased being associated with the Klan soon after that.

Clearly his attitudes toward the races was evolving. 

He was a successful slave merchant before the war but after the war was a meager businessman who, as President of the Macon and Memphis Railroad drove the company into bankruptcy. 

He wrote a letter to the governor of Tennessee offering to hunt down (they use the word 'exterminate') the people responsible for lynching for innocent black men. 

He testified in front of congress against the Klan. That committee noted, "The natural tendency of all such organizations is to violence and crime; hence it was that General Forrest and other men of influence in the state, by the exercise of their moral power, induced them to disband." That's correct. General Forrest testified in congress that he worked to disband the KKK. 

The New York Times covered his final public appearance. This is what he said after a black woman handed him flowers before his speech:
 

Quote
"Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. (Immense applause and laughter.) This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation.
I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt – that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man- to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going.
I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgment in selecting men for office and vote as you think right.
Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand." (Prolonged applause.)

After this speech he was rejected by the KKK completely. It's almost funny that the same organization that spoke out against his final speech and disavowed any relation to him in the past now use him as a tool to garner respect for their misguided passions. 

I believe his life should be remembered. He started a slave merchant, fought for the south in the Civil War, was a leader in the early years of the KKK but he was also a man who changed his opinion and became a supporter of unity and reconciliation between the races. 

Hopefully the thoughts he expressed at the end of his life will be used as a tool for the healing we still need in society today. I still believe his statue should be moved somewhere else. I believe his final request should be honored and his and wife's remains be removed from the park and he should be buried next to his soldiers. Despite the horrible acts he did as a young man the totality of his life earned him that final respect. Forrest has been used as a tool by both sides to long. First by the racist to add legitimacy to their criminal acts. Today by others who want to tar him for the crimes he spoke out against a leader in the community. He wasn't perfect but as he grew older he did try to mend the wounds. 

I know few people will read this post and sadly even fewer will go to the trouble to learn who he was and all that his life encompassed. I suppose it is easier to put on a T shirt and criticized the statue. However, for those that do look into the whole story, they may find someone worth discussing. 

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20 hours ago, chipc3 said:

...

After this speech he was rejected by the KKK completely. It's almost funny that the same organization that spoke out against his final speech and disavowed any relation to him in the past now use him as a tool to garner respect for their misguided passions. 

I believe his life should be remembered. He started a slave merchant, fought for the south in the Civil War, was a leader in the early years of the KKK but he was also a man who changed his opinion and became a supporter of unity and reconciliation between the races. 

Hopefully the thoughts he expressed at the end of his life will be used as a tool for the healing we still need in society today. I still believe his statue should be moved somewhere else. I believe his final request should be honored and his and wife's remains be removed from the park and he should be buried next to his soldiers. Despite the horrible acts he did as a young man the totality of his life earned him that final respect. Forrest has been used as a tool by both sides to long. First by the racist to add legitimacy to their criminal acts. Today by others who want to tar him for the crimes he spoke out against a leader in the community. He wasn't perfect but as he grew older he did try to mend the wounds. 

I know few people will read this post and sadly even fewer will go to the trouble to learn who he was and all that his life encompassed. I suppose it is easier to put on a T shirt and criticized the statue. However, for those that do look into the whole story, they may find someone worth discussing. 

Reminds me of John Newton, the writer of the famous song "Amazing Grace". I suppose there will be someone demanding that the song should be removed from all hymnals and burned. 

 

 

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21 hours ago, chipc3 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

I hope everyone will take the time to read the Wikipedia coverage of Nathan Bedford Forest especially the post-civil war entry. In that section they discuss how he was associated with the KKK. He probably was the first appointed leader of but found after one year the organization "an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: “It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed.” He ceased being associated with the Klan soon after that.

Clearly his attitudes toward the races was evolving. 

He was a successful slave merchant before the war but after the war was a meager businessman who, as President of the Macon and Memphis Railroad drove the company into bankruptcy. 

He wrote a letter to the governor of Tennessee offering to hunt down (they use the word 'exterminate') the people responsible for lynching for innocent black men. 

He testified in front of congress against the Klan. That committee noted, "The natural tendency of all such organizations is to violence and crime; hence it was that General Forrest and other men of influence in the state, by the exercise of their moral power, induced them to disband." That's correct. General Forrest testified in congress that he worked to disband the KKK. 

The New York Times covered his final public appearance. This is what he said after a black woman handed him flowers before his speech:
 

After this speech he was rejected by the KKK completely. It's almost funny that the same organization that spoke out against his final speech and disavowed any relation to him in the past now use him as a tool to garner respect for their misguided passions. 

I believe his life should be remembered. He started a slave merchant, fought for the south in the Civil War, was a leader in the early years of the KKK but he was also a man who changed his opinion and became a supporter of unity and reconciliation between the races. 

Hopefully the thoughts he expressed at the end of his life will be used as a tool for the healing we still need in society today. I still believe his statue should be moved somewhere else. I believe his final request should be honored and his and wife's remains be removed from the park and he should be buried next to his soldiers. Despite the horrible acts he did as a young man the totality of his life earned him that final respect. Forrest has been used as a tool by both sides to long. First by the racist to add legitimacy to their criminal acts. Today by others who want to tar him for the crimes he spoke out against a leader in the community. He wasn't perfect but as he grew older he did try to mend the wounds. 

I know few people will read this post and sadly even fewer will go to the trouble to learn who he was and all that his life encompassed. I suppose it is easier to put on a T shirt and criticized the statue. However, for those that do look into the whole story, they may find someone worth discussing. 

Interesting turns this thread has taken. I agree with the sentiments of this post in that history is messy, and people and life are complex. But let's keep the main thing the main thing here. These monuments were erected to push back against integration efforts at several points in our history (Post reconstruction, the New Deal, and Great Society just to name a few). They were not constructed as historical markers to honor these confederate generals more so than to assert the dominance and permanency of white supremacist rule in the south. It's not just about the KKK,  but about the political and economic (white) elites in those days moving to maintain and engender white supremacy as the law of the land. Its not history in these monuments, but propaganda. Their proper place is in museums and textbooks where they can be examined in the proper and best historic contexts.

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30 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

Interesting turns this thread has taken. I agree with the sentiments of this post in that history is messy, and people and life are complex. But let's keep the main thing the main thing here. These monuments were erected to push back against integration efforts at several points in our history (Post reconstruction, the New Deal, and Great Society just to name a few). They were not constructed as historical markers to honor these confederate generals more so than to assert the dominance and permanency of white supremacist rule in the south. It's not just about the KKK,  but about the political and economic (white) elites in those days moving to maintain and engender white supremacy as the law of the land. Its not history in these monuments, but propaganda. Their proper place is in museums and textbooks where they can be examined in the proper and best historic contexts.

Actually the proper place for Forrest's remains are with the soldiers who fought with him. His will expressed the desire to be buried alongside his former soldiers. It was a horrible injustice to him that he was moved to the park to begin with. I agree that there is some sincere doubt that these monuments were ever intended to mean anything other than subjugation of minorities. Forrest changed his opinions on this issue as he grew older and to have him held as an example or to be used as a tool in this manner is wrong on many levels not the least on how it affects today many of our citizens. 

 

And if you don't know the story of John Newton referenced by Father Pat here is the Wikipedia link.

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3 hours ago, Father Pat said:

Reminds me of John Newton, the writer of the famous song "Amazing Grace". I suppose there will be someone demanding that the song should be removed from all hymnals and burned. 

 

 

That's exactly what I was thinking as I read Chip's post.  John Newton was a slave trader; about as low as you can get.  Yet he wrote one of the grandest hymns of all time.

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How many people that butchered, raped and enslaved white people do white people honor due to history?

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11 hours ago, MemphisX said:

How many people that butchered, raped and enslaved white people do white people honor due to history?

That depends on the kind of white people you ask this question. I see people honoring Franco every year in Spain.

I mean, if you change the second "white people" of your question and put "fascists" instead, the answer is a lot lol

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I'd say William Wallace is honored in Scotland and what he did to the British was butcher and rape and pillage. No slavery per se so I guess that doesn't fit completely. 

Sherman's march thru the south when he burned Atlanta is pretty honored in some places but that was pretty horrifying to the South at the time and ever since. 

Russia just put up a statue to Joseph Stalin and he murdered more jews than Hitler. 

Napoleon reintroduced slavery in France after it had been abolished and his armies raped, pillaged and butchered most of Europe at different times. 

It all depends on what you want to look at I suppose. History is history after all and in retrospect people hate what happened at different times. 

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19 hours ago, MemphisX said:

How many people that butchered, raped and enslaved white people do white people honor due to history?

Every statue or photo of Julius Caesar is a depiction of a slave owner.  He sold the entire population of Gaul (those he didn't kill) into slavery. 

Every time you see a representation of a "Spartan"...slave owners.  Same for Athens (so all those statues of Athena..monuments to slave owners).  Pretty much all of Greek antiquity was built on the backs of slaves.

Muhammad?  Slave owner.

I get what you are saying...but if you look at the broader picture of slavery you see it doesn't really hold water.

 

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15 minutes ago, Gradey said:

Every statue or photo of Julius Caesar is a depiction of a slave owner.  He sold the entire population of Gaul (those he didn't kill) into slavery. 

Every time you see a representation of a "Spartan"...slave owners.  Same for Athens (so all those statues of Athena..monuments to slave owners).  Pretty much all of Greek antiquity was built on the backs of slaves.

Muhammad?  Slave owner.

I get what you are saying...but if you look at the broader picture of slavery you see it doesn't really hold water.

 

I'd say you owned him on that response but it would probably be taken the wrong way! 

please don't take it the wrong way either. I am just making a joke by playing on words and am not suggesting Gradey made X his slave in any way. 

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