Michael D

JaM Ain't Going Anywhere

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24 minutes ago, fanboyslim said:

Keep in mind that unlike Franklin, Beasley, Jennings and other players going to China, JaM is a UFA., which means no hopes of coming back to the NBA unless it's through us.

You mean he's a RFA right?

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While the Grizzlies hold most the cards, the one play JaM has is to play out the year because I don't believe that is something the Grizzlies should want IF they think JaM is in their long term plans because then his market value is even higher.  IF they think he is a solid contributor for 3-4 years, then sign him at a reasonable deal, and don't let him become a free agent, because then you might not get anything for him.

It is better for him, if he has a good year and stays healthy (Big ifs), to play this year at $2.8 mm, and be a free agent and get $9-13 mm per year, and worse for the team in the long run.  

Don't let a good player get to free agency (if you believe in him).

If the Grizzlies just see him as a replaceable stop-gap part, then no worries about him getting to FA.

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Father Pat    0
20 minutes ago, Grizzled Vet said:

While the Grizzlies hold most the cards, the one play JaM has is to play out the year because I don't believe that is something the Grizzlies should want IF they think JaM is in their long term plans because then his market value is even higher.  IF they think he is a solid contributor for 3-4 years, then sign him at a reasonable deal, and don't let him become a free agent, because then you might not get anything for him.

It is better for him, if he has a good year and stays healthy (Big ifs), to play this year at $2.8 mm, and be a free agent and get $9-13 mm per year, and worse for the team in the long run.  

Don't let a good player get to free agency (if you believe in him).

If the Grizzlies just see him as a replaceable stop-gap part, then no worries about him getting to FA.

One thing is fairly certain, and that is Wallace was not communicating with Jam and/or his agent. If the Grizzlies do or did have Jam in their long term plans, then it would be fair to say that Wallace is absolutely incompetent. This would lead me to believe that the F.O. simply believes that Jam and his talent level is easily replaced or just not needed.

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srmjr23    0
52 minutes ago, Father Pat said:

One thing is fairly certain, and that is Wallace was not communicating with Jam and/or his agent. If the Grizzlies do or did have Jam in their long term plans, then it would be fair to say that Wallace is absolutely incompetent. This would lead me to believe that the F.O. simply believes that Jam and his talent level is easily replaced or just not needed.

Fairly certain, you say? What makes you fairly certain that Wallace hasn't been communicating with Jam or his agent? Oh, you mean what Jam's agent was saying? Uh huh.

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Father Pat    0
5 hours ago, srmjr23 said:

Fairly certain, you say? 

Why yes, I did say "fairly certain". Very perceptive of you to notice.

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srmjr23    0
20 minutes ago, Father Pat said:

Why yes, I did say "fairly certain". Very perceptive of you to notice.

Good one! Sick burn.

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chipc3    0

Just curious what people think. 

If Green comes back on the Qualifying Offer and the team doesn't negotiate a longer term deal, is this a Fizdale decision or a Wallace decision? If the Green gets a deal and the Grizzlies don't match it, is this going to be blamed on Fizdale or Wallace? 

I ask because many people have been saying that Wallace is building a team for Fizdale. So who is going to be blamed (or get credit of course) for the moves this summer? 

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Jetfixer    0

I would think this is a consensus of the whole FO including Fizzdale. I suspect they just are waiting and don't want to overpay.

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SC Grizz    0
28 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Just curious what people think. 

If Green comes back on the Qualifying Offer and the team doesn't negotiate a longer term deal, is this a Fizdale decision or a Wallace decision? If the Green gets a deal and the Grizzlies don't match it, is this going to be blamed on Fizdale or Wallace? 

I ask because many people have been saying that Wallace is building a team for Fizdale. So who is going to be blamed (or get credit of course) for the moves this summer? 

I do not believe Fizz has the clout to be making major roster decisions. He has a general vision and most like the FO (and some level of ownership) is on board with transitioning towards this vision. 

Personally, I do not believe anything we saw last season was truly indicative of what Fizz wanted 100%, but this year should be a great deal closer.

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chipc3    0
6 minutes ago, SC Grizz said:

I do not believe Fizz has the clout to be making major roster decisions. He has a general vision and most like the FO (and some level of ownership) is on board with transitioning towards this vision. 

Personally, I do not believe anything we saw last season was truly indicative of what Fizz wanted 100%, but this year should be a great deal closer.

So Fizdale gets the credit if the team overachieves and Wallace gets the blame if they don't reach expectations??? 

 

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SC Grizz    0
1 minute ago, chipc3 said:

So Fizdale gets the credit if the team overachieves and Wallace gets the blame if they don't reach expectations??? 

 

How do you get that from my response or were you just waiting to spring that on anyone that doesn't believe Fizdale should get fired?

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on Fizz. I think he underperformed last year but was hamstrung by the Chandler Parsons situation. IMO the jury is still out on him.

It is clear you dislike Fizdale (I seem to remember you have from pretty early on, but do not have the spare time to look back that far). Having said that I do not believe that there is any doubt that we ALL know Wallace has been a mediocre GM.

So big picture - if I was running the show - yes, CW would already be fired so that is a non-starter for me. I could come in and do a better job than CW. No sarcasm intended at all. A lot of us on these boards could.

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chipc3    0
2 minutes ago, SC Grizz said:

How do you get that from my response or were you just waiting to spring that on anyone that doesn't believe Fizdale should get fired?

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on Fizz. I think he underperformed last year but was hamstrung by the Chandler Parsons situation. IMO the jury is still out on him.

It is clear you dislike Fizdale (I seem to remember you have from pretty early on, but do not have the spare time to look back that far). Having said that I do not believe that there is any doubt that we ALL know Wallace has been a mediocre GM.

So big picture - if I was running the show - yes, CW would already be fired so that is a non-starter for me. I could come in and do a better job than CW. No sarcasm intended at all. A lot of us on these boards could.

I don't dislike him as much as I don't think he makes a difference. Nothing unfair about that because I don't believe Joerger made that big of a difference. I don't believe most NBA coaches make a big difference. Pops clearly does. Riley did when he coached. I'm not sure about Kerr yet. He was handed a golden platter and he's made sure it stays shiny. 

Don't confuse my saying others have over-hyped a coach for my disliking him. Coaches just don't make that much of a difference. People give them too much credit when they have talent and not enough when they don't. Fizdale however is getting a free pass from people who have campaigned against Joerger and Hollins and I am pointing out the hypocrisy of their positions. 

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TimBC    0

Is one of JaM's options to take a one-year deal and hope he really gets hot? 

If he and his agent are really confident in his abilities, maybe they don't WANT a multi-year deal. 

(Me, I'd say "everybody gets hurt eventually; take the longest deal you can get")

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Michael D    0
1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

I don't dislike him as much as I don't think he makes a difference. Nothing unfair about that because I don't believe Joerger made that big of a difference. I don't believe most NBA coaches make a big difference. Pops clearly does. Riley did when he coached. I'm not sure about Kerr yet. He was handed a golden platter and he's made sure it stays shiny. 

Don't confuse my saying others have over-hyped a coach for my disliking him. Coaches just don't make that much of a difference. People give them too much credit when they have talent and not enough when they don't. Fizdale however is getting a free pass from people who have campaigned against Joerger and Hollins and I am pointing out the hypocrisy of their positions. 

Add one Grizzlies coach to the exceptions...Lionel Hollins.  Well two, Hubie Brown.

Both came in and completely turned around a losing culture.  Hollins did a good job helping develop Conley to reach his potential.

Zach Randolph and the crew were not winners when Hollins took over and Randolph was seen as a potential locker room problem.  The culture that Hollins set up helped turn this team into perennial playoff winners and legitimate contenders.  Dude is a legend as far as the Grizzlies are concerned.

2 hours ago, chipc3 said:

So Fizdale gets the credit if the team overachieves and Wallace gets the blame if they don't reach expectations??? 

 

1 hour ago, SC Grizz said:

How do you get that from my response or were you just waiting to spring that on anyone that doesn't believe Fizdale should get fired?

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on Fizz. I think he underperformed last year but was hamstrung by the Chandler Parsons situation. IMO the jury is still out on him.

It is clear you dislike Fizdale (I seem to remember you have from pretty early on, but do not have the spare time to look back that far). Having said that I do not believe that there is any doubt that we ALL know Wallace has been a mediocre GM.

So big picture - if I was running the show - yes, CW would already be fired so that is a non-starter for me. I could come in and do a better job than CW. No sarcasm intended at all. A lot of us on these boards could.

Whether the team succeeds or fails I think Wallace gets the credit.  Fizdale must have been hamstrung last year with the whole playing and starting Parsons who was clearly rusty.  If Parsons isn't ready to go this year I think Wallace may be looking for a job.  He cannot be injured still for year two, there's no way for CW to justify the signing if that's the case.

This all falls on the man in charge's shoulders, Wallace.

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3 hours ago, chipc3 said:

I don't dislike him as much as I don't think he makes a difference. Nothing unfair about that because I don't believe Joerger made that big of a difference. I don't believe most NBA coaches make a big difference. Pops clearly does. Riley did when he coached. I'm not sure about Kerr yet. He was handed a golden platter and he's made sure it stays shiny. 

Don't confuse my saying others have over-hyped a coach for my disliking him. Coaches just don't make that much of a difference. People give them too much credit when they have talent and not enough when they don't. Fizdale however is getting a free pass from people who have campaigned against Joerger and Hollins and I am pointing out the hypocrisy of their positions. 

As one who has come to the opinion that Hollins (not so much) and Joerger (definitely) had a style that hindered our full potential (and I emphasize the word full), AND has grown to like Fiz more over the course of this season, I don't know why that has to be hypocritical.  

Now - I do agree that coaches get more credit and blame in this league than they probably deserve.  So I'm not arguing that.  But I do see more of a sense of collaboration out of Fizdale, and that's a leadership style I care more for than my way or the highway.

There may still actually be Wallace decisions and Fiz decisions, but both of them seem to be more approachable, collaborative and agreeable.  When I look at the moves we have and haven't made, I see that.

BUT, specific to your earlier question - under the assumption that the decision lies between Wallace and Fiz ONLY, and nobody else influences the decision one way or the other, I guess it makes sense to blame Wallace if the JAM contract gets botched somehow, because he's the GM and it would truly be snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory for us to get in a bad situation with Jam.

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Herodotus    0

I see Pandora's Box has been opened. 

Just to reset something here: We all remember that in 2016-2017, Marc Gasol made 268 threes at a 38.8% clip, after having only made 66 threes his entire career prior to that.

When something is said like, "NBA coaches [don't] make a big difference," we have to be careful not to paint so broadly that it's absurd.

I think a bit of a reset on this conversation is required. 

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SC Grizz    0
On 8/4/2017 at 9:26 PM, Herodotus said:

I see Pandora's Box has been opened. 

Just to reset something here: We all remember that in 2016-2017, Marc Gasol made 268 threes at a 38.8% clip, after having made only made 66 threes his entire career prior to that.

When something is said like, "NBA coaches [don't] make a big difference," we have to be careful not to paint so broadly that it's absurd.

I think a bit of a reset on this conversation is required. 

LOL. Good point.

I think there are two separate conversations going on here - is Fizdale capable of calling shots regarding player/roster management behind the scenes? I highly doubt that. Therefore anything in regards to JaM's situation doesn't really fall at Fizdale's feet. Don't get me wrong - if Fizdale was adamant that we needed JaM (a fringe starter) - I suspect that might move the needle at least a small bit, but he's not the "shot caller". 

Big picture do that many Grizz fans truly believe next season hinges on resigning JaMychel Green? I sure hope not. Next season will hinge on the knees of Chandler Parson and Tyreke Evans. Seems to me we could have done just as well with Patrick Patterson (https://thunderousintentions.com/2017/07/04/okc-thunder-sign-patrick-patterson-3-year-deal/). That ship has sailed but Green shouldn't be looking for anything north of that type money. 

 

On the topic of coaching... man I would hate to be one of these guys. It is hard to make folks happy. As Chip pointed out, no one is really sure if Steve Kerr (two championship rings as a coach) is that good of a coach because he was given it all on a golden platter. People are looking back at Phil Jackson now and questioning his legacy (not on these boards) - "He had Jordan/Pippen and Kobe/Shaq - anyone could have won with those teams". 

Seems to me a lot goes into coaching.

Scheme - Fizdale I think has this and I believe it can work if given some better (healthier) players. It revolves around what Herodotus mentioned - extending Marc's game and therefore his defender all the way out to the perimeter. I believe it was working with James Ennis III (10.62 PER last year - that is well below NBA average) running the SF spot for periods of time. Imagine upgrading that position? Then we saw what happened when Chandler Parsons was forced into the rotation. "Fizball" fizzled. 

Ego - Personality Management - i.e. managing your own ego (I think Hollins and Joerger struggled with this) as well as the ego of your players (Hollins excelled here). Fizdale seems to be doing this alright from what I can tell thus far. He got Zbo to move to the bench. He got Marc to not hesitate with taking that open 3 pointer. He got MC11 to become a scoring PG at times (which he is going to have to be a lot more given the current make up of our roster). This is something we will not truly have a read on until much later in Fizz's career.

X's and O's - When to put Troy Daniels in? "Hmmmm, probably not right now coach." Let's draw up that last second play for the the win! "Dang, I wish we had Joerger." To an extent scheme can overcome X's and O's. Fizdale has shown me next to nothing in this department through one season. 

Player Development - We all know what goes into this and a lot of this needs to be delegated to assistants.

Is Fizz being held to a different standard than other coaches we had? I don't think so, but then again, as I already said, I think the jury is still out. A lot goes into evaluating a coach. Probably more than I posted above even!

On 8/4/2017 at 3:20 PM, chipc3 said:

People give them too much credit when they have talent and not enough when they don't.

Agreed. 

 

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11 hours ago, Herodotus said:

I see Pandora's Box has been opened. 

Just to reset something here: We all remember that in 2016-2017, Marc Gasol made 268 threes at a 38.8% clip, after having only made 66 threes his entire career prior to that.

When something is said like, "NBA coaches [don't] make a big difference," we have to be careful not to paint so broadly that it's absurd.

I think a bit of a reset on this conversation is required. 

 
 

Sorry, I don't remember that. Marc didn't make 268 3's last year, he attempted 268 3's. He made 104. If he made 268 3's, that would have meant he was making 3.6 3's per game on 9.5 attempts per game. 

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2 hours ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

Sorry, I don't remember that. Marc didn't make 268 3's last year, he attempted 268 3's. He made 104. If he made 268 3's, that would have meant he was making 3.6 3's per game on 9.5 attempts per game. 

Yeah, he just mixed up attempts and makes since he had only made 12 total prior to last season.

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JaM has a double whammy going against him now.

Besides the fact he is a RFA, the market has fallen out for traditional big men. Nerlens Noel, Mason Plumlee, Alex Len and Nikola Mirotic are all just RFA just waiting for offers.  I imagine a couple of those will just wait to be an UFA and be on the market again next year

Add in that these guys are still available: Bogut, Hibbert, Zeller, Splitter, Ezeli and a bunch of PFs.

 

It could really get worse for JaM if he does not try to do some 3 year @ $6 mm/year.

 

The market has collapsed for big men.

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42 minutes ago, Grizzled Vet said:

JaM has a double whammy going against him now.

Besides the fact he is a RFA, the market has fallen out for traditional big men. Nerlens Noel, Mason Plumlee, Alex Len and Nikola Mirotic are all just RFA just waiting for offers.  I imagine a couple of those will just wait to be an UFA and be on the market again next year

Add in that these guys are still available: Bogut, Hibbert, Zeller, Splitter, Ezeli and a bunch of PFs.

 

It could really get worse for JaM if he does not try to do some 3 year @ $6 mm/year.

 

The market has collapsed for big men.

Man go be me zeller, neelens noel, or Nikola. Please. 

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Michael D    0
On 8/5/2017 at 6:25 AM, SC Grizz said:

LOL. Good point.

I think there are two separate conversations going on here - is Fizdale capable of calling shots regarding player/roster management behind the scenes? I highly doubt that. Therefore anything in regards to JaM's situation doesn't really fall at Fizdale's feet. Don't get me wrong - if Fizdale was adamant that we needed JaM (a fringe starter) - I suspect that might move the needle at least a small bit, but he's not the "shot caller". 

Big picture do that many Grizz fans truly believe next season hinges on resigning JaMychel Green? I sure hope not. Next season will hinge on the knees of Chandler Parson and Tyreke Evans. Seems to me we could have done just as well with Patrick Patterson (https://thunderousintentions.com/2017/07/04/okc-thunder-sign-patrick-patterson-3-year-deal/). That ship has sailed but Green shouldn't be looking for anything north of that type money. 

 

On the topic of coaching... man I would hate to be one of these guys. It is hard to make folks happy. As Chip pointed out, no one is really sure if Steve Kerr (two championship rings as a coach) is that good of a coach because he was given it all on a golden platter. People are looking back at Phil Jackson now and questioning his legacy (not on these boards) - "He had Jordan/Pippen and Kobe/Shaq - anyone could have one with those teams". 

Seems to me a lot goes into coaching.

Scheme - Fizdale I think has this and I believe it can work if given some better (healthier) players. It revolves around what Herodotus mentioned - extending Marc's game and therefore his defender all the way out to the perimeter. I believe it was working with James Ennis III (10.62 PER last year - that is well below NBA average) running the SF spot for periods of time. Imagine upgrading that position? Then we saw what happened when Chandler Parsons was forced into the rotation. "Fizball" fizzled. 

Ego - Personality Management - i.e. managing your own ego (I think Hollins and Joerger struggled with this) as well as the ego of your players (Hollins excelled here). Fizdale seems to be doing this alright from what I can tell thus far. He got Zbo to move to the bench. He got Marc to not hesitate with taking that open 3 pointer. He got MC11 to become a scoring PG at times (which he is going to have to be a lot more given the current make up of our roster). This is something we will not truly have a read on until much later in Fizz's career.

X's and O's - When to put Troy Daniels in? "Hmmmm, probably not right now coach." Let's draw up that last second play for the the win! "Dang, I wish we had Joerger." To an extent scheme can overcome X's and O's. Fizdale has shown me next to nothing in this department through one season. 

Player Development - We all know what goes into this and a lot of this needs to be delegated to assistants.

Is Fizz being held to a different standard than other coaches we had? I don't think so, but then again, as I already said, I think the jury is still out. A lot goes into evaluating a coach. Probably more than I posted above even!

Agreed. 

 

Excellent!

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TimBC    0
17 hours ago, srmjr23 said:

Zeller is hot garbage 

You raise an interesting point. Since we have a zillion stats available already, why not add one more: the Q score?
In marketing and entertainment, it "is a measurement of the familiarity and appeal of a brand, celebrity, company, or entertainment product"  

For the NBA, we could compute something like (% of fans who have even heard of the guy) - 1.5x (% who think he is hot garbage) + 1.24x (% who think he will be an allstar this season) + 0.1(% who go "meh, he's a tenth man at best")

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