GrizzTigerFan

Which Guys should be Prioritized to Develop?

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36 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

A very sad commentary. Not saying you aren't accurate but it is sad just the same. 

It's hard to compare the Grizzlies situation with the Spurs mainly because the team has had 12 coaches and 6 general managers while Pops has been coaching the Spurs. The Grizzlies have rotated 3 coaches and 3 front offices in the last 5 years alone! It would be foolish to assume the team is operating with the depth of conviction the Spurs have maintained. However it is a good goal to set moving forward. 

And I realize GTF wants the fans to start picking the winners right now. I am simply saying it is way too early to start listing winners and losers this season. It is best to wait until the staff has seen who is working the hardest and who earns the minutes before shortening the minutes of anyone. We have a minimum of 3 more summer league games, all of August, training camp and pre-season games before having an idea of who fits best and looks ready to compete.  

I don't know if you realize it or not but the FO has shifted from a "Spurisian" view into trying to emulate Miami heat culture.    And yes for open dialogue purposes this thread is about which 3-5 guys do YOU think can be developed on the actual team and still allow for us to make the playoffs.  

For example making Kobi Simmons the primary backup PG for development and experience purposes right now will cost us too many wins.  However, continuing with Harrison in that role will not impact win/losses much.     Both cases are considered "development'' but one seems more likely to bear fruit while allowing us to remain competitive.  

Fiz is tasked with killing two birds with one stone (player development and playoff berth) so what is the best way to achieve that?

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7 minutes ago, Southern Dreadz said:

Harrison and DD are my first two, followed closely behind by Seldon. And  because he is the great unknown, I want to see what Rade has fairly quickly so the team can make a decision to fish or cut bait pretty quickly. 

Sidenote: Harrison is not a PG and they should spend absolutely ZERO minutes on developing that skillset.

Should he continue to work on ball-handling and seeing the court? Absolutely!

For for this team to reach a real zenith, then it is time to recognize what the GM of the Warriors said...and I'm paraphrasing...don't worry about positions, just get basketball players. Figure out their roles once you have the talent.

Because of his size and ball-handling ability, Drew compliments Mike. And considering this thread is all about developing young players while maintaining playoff aspirations, we should recognize that all this is predicated upon  Mike and Marc producing at near All Star levels. With that in mind unless any of the young guys have ability to surpass Mike and Marc's level of talent and production, then the goal is developing guys to help maximize the ability of Mike and Marc to lead the team to victory.

To your point this is a quote from Brad Stevens,

Being described as a “tweener” in the NBA used to be considered a dirty word, an adjective used for a player too big or small to fit a traditional position. The league, however, has evolved.

Now teams seek out players that have a Swiss Army knife-like skill set that can fit into a more free-flowing, positionless game. There’s value in being able to segue into multiple roles.

“I don’t have the five positions anymore,” Celtics coach Brad Stevens said. “It may be as simple as three positions now, where you’re either a ball-handler, a wing or a big.

I also believe i have heard Fiz mention something along those lines in an interview as well.  

So based off those descriptions we can group our guys this way:

Ball-handlers:  Mike, Tyreke, Chandler, Harrison, Wade, Kobi

Wings: Ennis, Wayne, Daniels, Rade, Brooks, Ben

Bigs: Gasol, DD, JaMyke*, Martin, Wright

 

 

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chipc3    0
4 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I don't know if you realize it or not but the FO has shifted from a "Spurisian" view into trying to emulate Miami heat culture.    And yes for open dialogue purposes this thread is about which 3-5 guys do YOU think can be developed on the actual team and still allow for us to make the playoffs.  

For example making Kobi Simmons the primary backup PG for development and experience purposes right now will cost us too many wins.  However, continuing with Harrison in that role will not impact win/losses much.     Both cases are considered "development'' but one seems more likely to bear fruit while allowing us to remain competitive.  

Fiz is tasked with killing two birds with one stone (player development and playoff berth) so what is the best way to achieve that?

You brought up the Spurs not me. If you intended for the Heat to be the idea the team emulates you shouldn't have quoted Fizdale's comment about the Spurs (which wasn't exactly what you suggested at first anyway). 

And again, I believe it is too early to make decisions about who will be performing best next season. We are two games into summer league. We haven't seen any of these players with the varsity yet. We don't even know who will be on the final roster to know where holes will need to be filled by younger, less experienced players. It is too early to make these decisions for the front office, coaches and fans.

You may have made up your mind about already and want people to agree with you. That's fine. Go ahead and tell everyone who will be useful and who won't. It doesn't make it true. I am older, have seen this happen more often and I believe you just have to sit back and see who develops and who doesn't. Talent doesn't always continue to develop. Players who look lost in one environment suddenly blossom elsewhere. We just need to be patient and see who develops here in Memphis. 

Harrison seems to be the safer choice but still needs to beat out Baldwin and even Evans for playing time. He still needs to improve his game. He may dramatically improve his shot this summer. We just don't know yet. McLemore is an unknown as well. We don't know if Parsons will be able to play a full season or even half a season yet. We don't know if Evans will improve. We don't know if Green is returning, if Wright is being traded or so many other things.  

You can say who you want to see be given more opportunity but until you see how these players fit in the system the Grizzlies will run with the veterans on the team, everything is unknown. I personally want them all to develop into role players as soon as possible. I think they all should be given the same opportunity. Some will take better advantage this season than others. That will be decided in time. 

Just curious but what happened to the poster who used to use the name GrizzTigerFan who so passionately advocated ditching Z-Bo, TA and Carter because the only players that mattered in regards to making the playoffs were Conley and Gasol? 

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Ndq0327    0

One thing I can say for sure thisseason the opportunity is there our 8 to 9 man rotation will have at least 2 to 3 of our young guys included.

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chipc3    0
9 minutes ago, Ndq0327 said:

One thing I can say for sure thisseason the opportunity is there our 8 to 9 man rotation will have at least 2 to 3 of our young guys included.

Assuming Wallace doesn't keep signing veterans to the roster of course! :lol:

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Dark-Child    0

I would invest time in Rade Z., Ivan Rabb, Wayne Selden, DD, & Brooks with a simultaneous short term and long term view.  I would not include any of them in trades and try to develop each as much as I could without costing us any games. 

I would cut bait on Jarrell Martin, Troy Daniels, James Ennis, Wade Baldwin and Andrew Harrison.  Meaning I would try to package as many of them as I could in trades to net something else, anything else. 

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Jetfixer    0

What this topic is really asking is which young guys do we think are best. The coaching staff will put time in all the guys that make the roster. The individual players have workout scheduals with the coaches and trainers one on one. As they progress or regress I'm sure the staff does take more time devoting to certain guys, but I think they all will get the chance starting out. I put most of these guys development on them, the player.

 

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chipc3    0
11 minutes ago, Jetfixer said:

What this topic is really asking is which young guys do we think are best. The coaching staff will put time in all the guys that make the roster. The individual players have workout scheduals with the coaches and trainers one on one. As they progress or regress I'm sure the staff does take more time devoting to certain guys, but I think they all will get the chance starting out. I put most of these guys development on them, the player.

 

+1 I feel the same way. If we want to know who are the most popular that is fine. I am not ready to predict who will take advantage of opportunities given and I hope the franchise gives everyone of the youngsters an opportunity.  

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BLUEandGOLD    0

Prioritize? DD and Wayne (possibly Kobi). I am only including 2 (possibly 3) because I can see these guys replacing one of our vet starters relatively soon. I am not trying to discount Harrison, Martin, Rade or some of the others. They need to be developed as well. I just think we should NOT prioritize the development of backups. Up until now we have had our core. Everyone who came here or was "developing" here knew they would not start here. Since our previous core is breaking up there is opportunity for legit starter minutes and this is what we need to prioritize.

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grizzgolf    0
7 hours ago, fanboyslim said:

I think Rade is going to benefit greatly from training camp. Practicing with the veterans will be much closer to his current experience than being thrown into the court with a bunch of players trying to showcase themselves.

Agree! 

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If we're talking about focus, talking about the idea of going "all in" with 3-5 of them, then even though I like several on the list, I'm going with only 2:  Selden and Davis. I mean, in reality, we're really talking about who we think should be handed rotation spots at the beginning of the season out of this group. It's not just development; they will be thrown into the fire.  And from that perspective, again, they seem the most logical.

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chipc3    0
12 hours ago, The Truth is OUT said:

If we're talking about focus, talking about the idea of going "all in" with 3-5 of them, then even though I like several on the list, I'm going with only 2:  Selden and Davis. I mean, in reality, we're really talking about who we think should be handed rotation spots at the beginning of the season out of this group. It's not just development; they will be thrown into the fire.  And from that perspective, again, they seem the most logical.

This is why I have a problem with this entire line of thinking. No one should be 'handed' anything. This is the NBA. Players need to earn their spots. One has to assume Selden will earn his role based on last season's production and what we saw in summer league but even that isn't a given. 

The way I see the rotation going you have 5 constant starters, a backup PG, Wing and Big. That's 8 solid consistent rotation players who should have a good idea each night how many minutes they will play. That leaves 2 positions (back up wing and back big) that will have fluctuating minutes and shouldn't be given to anyone yet. Wright, Davis, Martin and Rabb all fall into the big dicussion especially if JaMychal doesn't return but we can't rule out playing Parsons more as a stretch 4 eating up minutes here as well regardless of Green's returning. 

The wings are very crowded with Parsons, Ennis, Evans, Rade, Brooks, Daniels, McLemore and Selden. That's seven players for essentially 4 spots. There will be an unhappy player or two even if you assume Rade and Brooks spend the majority of time in the D-League. 

When the starts pre-season games we should be getting a better idea of who will be in the rotation but I hope it is based on what they show in camp and not like we saw last season when a player was given the starting spot based on his contract and not his play. 

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49 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

This is why I have a problem with this entire line of thinking. No one should be 'handed' anything. This is the NBA. Players need to earn their spots. One has to assume Selden will earn his role based on last season's production and what we saw in summer league but even that isn't a given. 

We argue about this every season and you still don't get it.  Rookies and other unproven guys can not "earn anything" until they are given a chance.    I like that you brought up Selden because we literally snatched him out of the D-league and started him 10 games.   When exactly did he earn those minutes over Ennis, Harrison,  or Daniels?   Or did Fizz just give him those minutes to see how he would do?

You are one of those "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" type of folk aren't you?  

13 hours ago, The Truth is OUT said:

If we're talking about focus, talking about the idea of going "all in" with 3-5 of them, then even though I like several on the list, I'm going with only 2:  Selden and Davis. I mean, in reality, we're really talking about who we think should be handed rotation spots at the beginning of the season out of this group. It's not just development; they will be thrown into the fire.  And from that perspective, again, they seem the most logical.

Yes maybe i should've worded it as "Which players should be given the opportunity to develop".   Because like you state that's really what it boils down to. 

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chipc3    0
1 hour ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

We argue about this every season and you still don't get it.  Rookies and other unproven guys can not "earn anything" until they are given a chance.    I like that you brought up Selden because we literally snatched him out of the D-league and started him 10 games.   When exactly did he earn those minutes over Ennis, Harrison,  or Daniels?   Or did Fizz just give him those minutes to see how he would do?

You are one of those "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" type of folk aren't you?  

Yes maybe i should've worded it as "Which players should be given the opportunity to develop".   Because like you state that's really what it boils down to. 

Rookies are given a chance by being given contracts. You and I have no chance. Anyone on the roster has a chance. 

Selden earned the minutes during practice. Injuries gave him the opportunity but he earned his PT by making the most of the opportunities when they were present. If Selden had looked bad in practice, in the D-League, when he got his few minutes on the court, he wouldn't have earned the starts when openings arrived. Daniels poor play and Allen's injuries gave Selden the opportunity to make an impact. He took advantage of the opportunity. He earned the opportunity by working his rear end off in the D-League, improving on his weaknesses (especially defense) and not expecting things to be handed to him. 

All players should be given the opportunity and most are. How well they take advantage of those opportunities is what matters. You love to suggest giving players something like your quoted comment about "which players should be given the opportunity to develop?" I don't believe anyone should be given something. They should earn it. You don't believe players can earn playing time. You believe that the coach has to decide who will win or lose and the rest should be discarded. 

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Dwash    0
1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

Rookies are given a chance by being given contracts. You and I have no chance. Anyone on the roster has a chance. 

Selden earned the minutes during practice. Injuries gave him the opportunity but he earned his PT by making the most of the opportunities when they were present. If Selden had looked bad in practice, in the D-League, when he got his few minutes on the court, he wouldn't have earned the starts when openings arrived. Daniels poor play and Allen's injuries gave Selden the opportunity to make an impact. He took advantage of the opportunity. He earned the opportunity by working his rear end off in the D-League, improving on his weaknesses (especially defense) and not expecting things to be handed to him. 

All players should be given the opportunity and most are. How well they take advantage of those opportunities is what matters. You love to suggest giving players something like your quoted comment about "which players should be given the opportunity to develop?" I don't believe anyone should be given something. They should earn it. You don't believe players can earn playing time. You believe that the coach has to decide who will win or lose and the rest should be discarded. 

Yeah you have to look usuable or show potential in the minutes you are given (garbage time, dleague, etc) but the coach still has to be willing to overlook some negatives from any rookie because they will all make mistakes. Thats the part that is "given" to the player. The benefit of the doubt that the player may not always be a positive contributor. In return hopefully the player tightens his game up.

No one is saying a total handout which is what you seem to turn the debate into.

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chipc3    0

I agree that rookies need to be given opportunities. The question is how many opportunities until you say go back and learn? Martin got minutes at the end of his rookie season and the beginning of his 2nd season. He didn't take advantage of those opportunities. I expect Rade, Brooks and Rabb will be given opportunities as well. Fizdale brags about his ability to develop players so let's see who takes advantage of those opportunities this time. No one should be given anything in my opinion. Everyone on the team has the opportunity to develop and earn playing time. They have to make the most of the opportunities when they arrive. 

You suggest that by "given" it means overlooking mistakes. Why should some players have that advantage and others not? If we are going to overlook players being out of position on defense, not running the right plays on offense, etc shouldn't that be the same for all the rookies? Why give that advantage to Davis and not Rabb for instance (and I'm using their names as an example only)? 

I believe everyone should be treated the same in regards to earning a spot in the rotation. If you are unahppy with your minutes you need to impress the coaches by working harder during practice, coming in early and staying late, asking coaches to help you get better at whatever is holding you out of games. That's how you earn game time. That opportunity should be the same for everyone. 

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Dwash    0
2 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I agree that rookies need to be given opportunities. The question is how many opportunities until you say go back and learn? Martin got minutes at the end of his rookie season and the beginning of his 2nd season. He didn't take advantage of those opportunities. I expect Rade, Brooks and Rabb will be given opportunities as well. Fizdale brags about his ability to develop players so let's see who takes advantage of those opportunities this time. No one should be given anything in my opinion. Everyone on the team has the opportunity to develop and earn playing time. They have to make the most of the opportunities when they arrive. 

As long as there is a need for what you can potentially bring to the table and the player is showing substantial effort at improving his weakness. Let management decide when its time to officially pull the plug.

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chipc3    0

So you agree there shouldn't be a priority list for the rookies coming into camp? 

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Dwash    0
18 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

So you agree there shouldn't be a priority list for the rookies coming into camp? 

I can go with that. If you are better and needed more it will show under equal circumstances.

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chipc3    0
Just now, Dwash said:

No not really. If you are better and needed more it will show under equal circumstances.

Needed more is the key part here. Clearly Selden got an advantage at the end of the season as he was needed more than Martin or Baldwin. If Z-Bo had gone down instead of Allen I'm sure Martin would have had the greater opportunity. I won't mention the other rookie because I don't want to jinx anyone ahead of him on the roster. ;)

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34 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I agree that rookies need to be given opportunities. The question is how many opportunities until you say go back and learn? Martin got minutes at the end of his rookie season and the beginning of his 2nd season. He didn't take advantage of those opportunities. I expect Rade, Brooks and Rabb will be given opportunities as well. Fizdale brags about his ability to develop players so let's see who takes advantage of those opportunities this time. No one should be given anything in my opinion. Everyone on the team has the opportunity to develop and earn playing time. They have to make the most of the opportunities when they arrive. 

Aren't those contradictions or was that last line a typo?     Also you have to keep in mind actually getting signed to a contract is the part where the players "earn it".   It took hard work to get into the league in the first place.   That is why it is not true to say that "rookies" or new players are "given" anything.   

I agree that once the opportunity comes it is on the player to show enough to get more.  Hopefully, one or two of these young guys can do just that. 

2 hours ago, chipc3 said:

bad in practice, in the D-League, when he got his few minutes on the court, he wouldn't have earned the starts when openings arrived. Daniels poor play and Allen's injuries gave Selden the opportunity to make an impact. He took advantage of the opportunity. He earned the opportunity by working his rear end off in the D-League, improving on his weaknesses (especially defense) and not expecting things to be handed to him. 

This goes back to my point.  It can be argued that rookies earned their opportunity in college or overseas just like you are saying with Selden.  It's the same.  BTW NBA teams rarely practice once the season starts so there aren't many "opportunities" gained by guys midseason based on practice.   Usually its based around the poor performance or injury of the person ahead of them.   Which was the case with Selden. 

Level of investment determines how many opportunities a player gets as well.   Lottery picks pretty much get PT regardless of "earning" it.  Ben Simmons will be the starter if healthy and he hasn't played at all for example. 

45 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

You suggest that by "given" it means overlooking mistakes. Why should some players have that advantage and others not? If we are going to overlook players being out of position on defense, not running the right plays on offense, etc shouldn't that be the same for all the rookies? Why give that advantage to Davis and not Rabb for instance (and I'm using their names as an example only)? 

Overlooking players flaws happens all the time by coaches.   How many times was tony out of position on defense? Same with Jamyke and others.   Reality is that "overlooking mistakes" is something that is "given" by coaches no matter the level of experience.   Key to development has always been patience to allow the player to learn from mistakes and grow.  Fiz has shown that with Harrison, Selden, and JaMyke. 

 

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chipc3    0

Do I need to remind you the title of the thread you started is "Which players need to be prioritized to Develop?"

I have never said players don't need to have opportunities. I have repeatedly said no one should be designated or "given" a greater opportunity. Players need to earn minutes in practice and impressing the coaches by working hard before and after practice. When they get a chance they need to produce. It is up to the players to become priorities not for the front office or coaches to predetermine who gets prioritized or not. 

You can try to switch it around and make it sound like I am saying two different things but I don't believe I am. "Should players be prioritized to develop" is not a statement I agree with

Wasn't Ben McLemore a lottery pick? Everyone who agrees with the signing says he never got a chance in Sacramento but I will give you this statement if it makes you happy. Lottery picks usually get prioritized. Doesn't make it right but that is human nature. All the lottery picks the Grizzlies have likely would get prioritized over non-lottery picks. Doesn't make it right however. 

Coaches do overlook players. This also doesn't make it right. Maybe these coaches who overlooked players did so because they prioritized them before training camp. Maybe they did this because the players weren't coming in early and staying late after practice so they didn't see the drive to improve they wanted. 

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6 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Do I need to remind you the title of the thread you started is "Which players need to be prioritized to Develop?"

I have never said players don't need to have opportunities. I have repeatedly said no one should be designated or given a greater opportunity. Players need to earn minutes in practice and impressing the coaches by working hard before and after practice. When they get a chance they need to produce. It is up to the players to become priorities not for the front office or coaches to predetermine who gets prioritized or not. 

You can try to switch it around and make it sound like I am saying two different things but I don't believe I am. Should players be prioritized to develop is not a statement I agree with. 

No i know what i entitled the thread but once again that was based off of Fiz statement.  He is looking to only develop 3-5 guys in season (his statement not mine).  We have 9 young guys on roster so logically that means he narrowed it done to only 3-5 that he will invest in.  In other words he will prioritize them over the others.    Hence the title of this thread. 

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