GrizzTigerFan

Which Guys should be Prioritized to Develop?

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CA interviewed Fizdale http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/nba/grizzlies/2017/07/08/coach-fizdale-happy-grizzlies-direction/462013001/ and one of his comments hit me. 

 

They pay me to coach the guys that they give me. When you’re going through transitional times when your team is getting older, that’s part of the plan: Can you bring 3-5 guys along while you’re still winning? San Antonio kept winning but they were bringing along Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Jonathon Simmons and Patty Mills. So you just hope you can bring along a couple of guys who can help you win while they’re learning. The goal is the same. I still want to win a title.

 

I underlined the reason for this thread.  Realistically if we want to remain a playoff team and at the same time develop talent.  Then we cannot afford to develop ALL our young guns at once.  So which 3 guys do you all believe should be focused on this season for development?  Let me qualify the candidates

  • Andrew Harrison (sophmore)
  • Dillon Brooks (rookie)
  • Wade Baldwin (sophmore)
  • Jarrell Martin (3rd year)
  • Wayne Selden (sophmore)
  • Deyonta Davis (sophmore)
  • Rade Zagorac (rookie)
  • Kobi Simmons (2way rookie)
  • Ivan Rabb (rookie)

That is NINE very inexperienced players.  It would be unfair to expect Fiz to develop ALL those guys in one season.   So which guys do you think deserve the attention?

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For example:

I would pick Wayne, Drew and Davis.  My reasoning is simple.    

Wayne has already shown that he has work ethic, physical gifts and ability to at the very least be an NBA rotation player.    He said in an interview that Fiz told him to work on his defense because that will be his role for right now.   

Harrison is my other pick and yes he is loathed around here but i actually see potential with him becoming a solid backup for Mike.   Fiz has already invested tons of time in him and his performance in the playoffs was promising.  His size, defense, and ability to handle the ball is valuable in today's NBA.   There is no reason to throw him away just yet.  He has already shown growth from his D-league time to now so that shows he is willing to work.  

Davis is the other guy and its because he has already shown flashes of what he can become.   He is already a decent rim-protector and rebounder and will get better with PT.    He is very young so worthy of the investment.

 

The other reason i am focusing on those 3 is because their skillsets already makes them likely candidates for PT.    All three can play NBA level defense and play at positions of need.   They have the easiest track into the rotation so logically it makes sense to develop them. 

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I don't necessarily think it is about prioritizing 3-5 guys over another.  I think it is the realistic perspective that if you have 9 non-lottery guys, an organization would be doing great getting 3-5 players out of it.  

I'm pretty biased to what I've most recently seen, which would be expectations that Harrison, Selden, Martin, and DD will be those guys, but I know I'm probably wrong.

After the 2009 Summer League, or even at the end of the 2009-10 season, I could not have picked the three guys of this group that would still be in the league in 2017.(And that wasn't a bunch of late rounders and undrafted guys).

After 2009 Summer League, these were the rookies and 2nd year players.

Going into 2nd year: D. Arthur, M Gasol, OJ Mayo, Hamad Haddadi, Marcus Williams (actually 3rd year)

Going into rookie year: Sam Young, Hasheem Thabeet, DeMarre Carroll, Trey Gilder.

I'm pretty sure if given that list of 9 after Summer League, 2009, I would have had Gasol, OJ Mayo, and probably Thabeet, just because he was drafted high.   Even at the end of the 09-10 season, nobody would have said DeMarre Carroll would have been one of the last 3 standing (Gasol, Arthur, Carroll).  

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Depends on what you believe development is. The best way to learn is in the game. They can't give significant game time to all of those young players and expect to make the playoffs. But guys can get better in practice and through the D League. I think you can develop multiple players at the same time, just to different degrees.

Someone who needs to be on that list is Ben Mac. He may have been in the league a few years but he has a lot of learning to do if he wants to be good. He has potential. He has yet to develop it though.

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I think that the scope is now broader with regard to developing due to the amount of young guys. Selden, for example, IMO is ready for the last "phase", as in turn him loose. Simmons is on the other end of that scale, as IMO he looks to have very good potential but needs a full season of G league first. I would like to see Rade fast tracked, G league for 1/2 a season and brought up. DD IMO needs some refinement but I don't see him getting a lot from the G league. I think Baldwin at pg does not look promising, but more work at 2 guard may bring out more of his potential. Brooks, to me, looks like a G league lifer right now. Maybe it's just nerves, and it's been only 2 summer league games, but a year in the G league may bring out his offensive potential. I would assume that the team thinks Harrison has progressed to the point that summer league has no value, or perhaps they are looking to trade him and don't won't him on the court showing flaws. He did pick up his shooting in the second half, so maybe the team is content with where he is. If he can cut down on fouls and continue to become a better shooter, he will be a very good backup pg.

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Good points guys and exactly what I was looking for.

GVet I am glad that Fiz recognized that only 3-5 guys can realistically be prioritized.  It shows me he has a plan, which is promising.

  Isuzu I guess I would define devolpment as helping to mold a raw player into a legitimate nba rotation guy with a role 

as you pointed out FatherPat Selden seems to be the guy on the fast track to becoming that.  He already is worthy of a 10 man rotation spot.  

I also would rather invest PG development time into Kobi over Wade now too.

  IMHO Wade hasn't shown enough that he should stunt the continued development of Harrison and needs more time in G League.  Like you I think that time will be better spent turning him into a 2G if we keep him.

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I would take 4 from the list Harrison, Seldon, Martin, DD

I know people don't like Drew but I think the expectations bestowed upon him are way too high hes already proven to be a steady ball handler who doesn't make bad decisions with the ball. He's shown a willingness to defend which is something you don't get a lot from highly touted young players. I believe he may start to get calls from officials this season cause he's good at drawing contact he just never had the benefit of the whistle. Only thing holding him back is a consistent shot but look how long it took Mike to get to this point. Harrison has the tools to be a solid back up playmaker at any wing position depending on the matchup. He's somone we should keep on cheap contracts for as long as we can.

 

Seldon I believe is the sg we've been missing but he needs a few years in a lesser role before he gets the credibility needed to play how he does in the SL now. I can easily see flashes of a young Wesley Mathews in him now except hes better at attacking the rim and using his strength but not as good a shooter yet. Like Harrison once he gets to the point where wide open shots are near automatic he will be very special when you combine his other skills.

 

Might take some flak for this but I think Martin has the most potential out of all our young players only problem his potential maybe the hardest to unlock. Mainly because unlike the other young guys Martin didn't have basketball drilled into him at a young age, he didn't grow up playing the game he only started playing in highschool so the instincts that most basketball players have just aren't there and he has to be taught. It's possible that he may never figure it out but the raw ability is there and if they can keep him on the cheap to see if Fizz can get it out of him it would be an investment I'm willing to get behind.

 

DD is on my list because we just need something to redeem us for letting Whiteside go. His defense is something the team has never had in recent memory if only he could figure out his offense or just mimick his game after Whiteside and DJ that would be perfect. A rim running big that catches lobs gets offensive put backs and is basically a garbage man on offense  but a specialist on defense Thats all I need from him.

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I think the original premise is misleading. San Antonio had 7 players on rookie contracts last season. Doesn't that mean the Spurs aren't choosing before the season who they are going to develop but rather taking talent and seeing who develops? 

The Spurs had Kyle Anderson, David Bertains, Dwayne Dedman, Bryn Forbes, Nicolas Diprivotti, Jonathan Simmons and Dejuanta Murray. Are they not tying to develop 3-4 of them or are they trying to develop them all and letting the ones showing the most promise get the most playing time?

To assume after 2 summer league games that certain players should be given up on already is ridiculous. What's really funny is the poster who has complained about the lack of youth development for years and just a few weeks ago argued constantly that veterans Randolph, Allen and Carter needed to be let go to make room for the young players, is not worried about too much youth being developed. 

If you ask me work with them all and see who develops rather than making rash decisions early in summer league. San Antonio carries rookies all over their roster. Follow the example and hopefully the players we have will work their way into more and more PT as they develop. If they don't then trade them or give up on them but not this early. Training camp hasn't even begun yet for goodness sake. 

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18 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

I think the original premise is misleading. San Antonio had 7 players on rookie contracts last season. Doesn't that mean the Spurs aren't choosing before the season who they are going to develop but rather taking talent and seeing who develops? 

The Spurs had Kyle Anderson, David Bertains, Dwayne Dedman, Bryn Forbes, Nicolas Diprivotti, Jonathan Simmons and Dejuanta Murray. Are they not tying to develop 3-4 of them or are they trying to develop them all and letting the ones showing the most promise get the most playing time?

To assume after 2 summer league games that certain players should be given up on already is ridiculous. What's really funny is the poster who has complained about the lack of youth development for years and just a few weeks ago argued constantly that veterans Randolph, Allen and Carter needed to be let go to make room for the young players, is not worried about too much youth being developed. 

If you ask me work with them all and see who develops rather than making rash decisions early in summer league. San Antonio carries rookies all over their roster. Follow the example and hopefully the players we have will work their way into more and more PT as they develop. If they don't then trade them or give up on them but not this early. Training camp hasn't even begun yet for goodness sake. 

I think you are reading into the thread too much. Unless I missed it, I didn't see mention of giving up on anyone. To me, and I believe most others, it is clear to see Selden is ready for NBA play while Simmons is not. Saying Simmons is not ready today or in November is in no way making a statement of giving up on him. Many players in summer league are nothing but cannon fodder and we all recognize that. Occasionally even some of that fodder proves everyone wrong, so of course it would be rash to write anyone off right now. I may very well be wrong, but I believe what the OP was trying to communicate was which of the young players were simply the most likely to be a team asset the soonest.

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They will all be developed. They have all been developing since they joined the team. If by "develop" you mean mpg, well then I think development has to either be earned or thrust upon you b/c of circumstance.

Right now we only have 2 playable bigs on the roster in Gasol and Wright and Wright can't be counted on. So, Davis and esp. Martin (only true 4) should be getting those developmental mpgs. We just need them to be developed ASAP even though neither has really earned anything as yet.

Seldon has proven he deserves his time. In real games, playoff games, and SL games he proved it. I expect he will be our starting SG.

Baldwin and Harrison are in an open competition for development mpgs. Harrison is winning, Baldwin is losing. They'll get what they earn.

The rest all seem to need time before they're ready to compete at the NBA level. When they show they're ready, then they can get floor time.

There's no reason to trot out unprepared cubs in a real game. Some of them will lose confidence and regress if we do that. They will practice against the team and each other and in SL and GL. That is their development. When they're ready for real NBA games, then they can develop on the floor like Seldon will be doing this year.

 

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Seldon (time for him to get quality PT)

Harrison

BenMac

Davis

I'm not sure Martin or Baldwin will be around long enough (i.e. traded)

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1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

I think the original premise is misleading. San Antonio had 7 players on rookie contracts last season. Doesn't that mean the Spurs aren't choosing before the season who they are going to develop but rather taking talent and seeing who develops? 

The Spurs had Kyle Anderson, David Bertains, Dwayne Dedman, Bryn Forbes, Nicolas Diprivotti, Jonathan Simmons and Dejuanta Murray. Are they not tying to develop 3-4 of them or are they trying to develop them all and letting the ones showing the most promise get the most playing time?

To assume after 2 summer league games that certain players should be given up on already is ridiculous. What's really funny is the poster who has complained about the lack of youth development for years and just a few weeks ago argued constantly that veterans Randolph, Allen and Carter needed to be let go to make room for the young players, is not worried about too much youth being developed. 

If you ask me work with them all and see who develops rather than making rash decisions early in summer league. San Antonio carries rookies all over their roster. Follow the example and hopefully the players we have will work their way into more and more PT as they develop. If they don't then trade them or give up on them but not this early. Training camp hasn't even begun yet for goodness sake. 

The OP is based around Fiz comment 

 

5 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

Can you bring 3-5 guys along while you’re still winning?

So which 3-5 guys do you think Fiz should try to integrate into the team while still aiming for playoffs?

Seems like everyone else had no issue with understating the premise.

Does that clear up things for you or do you need me to explain further?

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I'm not really sold on Selden yet, I know he started looking good at times last season but I haven't seen enough of him to give him a spot on the team, though that spot is his to lose. I think Harrison won his spot last season, gotta put Davis on the team, sure wish they could pick up Mickey. Oh I think Jarell is the most athletic of the bunch, just got to get it together.

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We have too many young players and some will be traded this summer. Don't rule out us helping to facilitate some type of trade as a third or fourth team, even the Carmelo trade

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5 hours ago, chipc3 said:

I think the original premise is misleading. San Antonio had 7 players on rookie contracts last season. Doesn't that mean the Spurs aren't choosing before the season who they are going to develop but rather taking talent and seeing who develops? 

The Spurs had Kyle Anderson, David Bertains, Dwayne Dedman, Bryn Forbes, Nicolas Diprivotti, Jonathan Simmons and Dejuanta Murray. Are they not tying to develop 3-4 of them or are they trying to develop them all and letting the ones showing the most promise get the most playing time?

To assume after 2 summer league games that certain players should be given up on already is ridiculous. What's really funny is the poster who has complained about the lack of youth development for years and just a few weeks ago argued constantly that veterans Randolph, Allen and Carter needed to be let go to make room for the young players, is not worried about too much youth being developed. 

If you ask me work with them all and see who develops rather than making rash decisions early in summer league. San Antonio carries rookies all over their roster. Follow the example and hopefully the players we have will work their way into more and more PT as they develop. If they don't then trade them or give up on them but not this early. Training camp hasn't even begun yet for goodness sake. 

Facts

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8 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

The OP is based around Fiz comment 

 

So which 3-5 guys do you think Fiz should try to integrate into the team while still aiming for playoffs?

Seems like everyone else had no issue with understating the premise.

Does that clear up things for you or do you need me to explain further?

I think the players who show the most development during the season. It is too early to determine who those will be. No one should be left out of the equation yet. 

Is that clear enough or do you need me to explain further?

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12 hours ago, chipc3 said:

I think the original premise is misleading. San Antonio had 7 players on rookie contracts last season. Doesn't that mean the Spurs aren't choosing before the season who they are going to develop but rather taking talent and seeing who develops? 

The Spurs had Kyle Anderson, David Bertains, Dwayne Dedman, Bryn Forbes, Nicolas Diprivotti, Jonathan Simmons and Dejuanta Murray. Are they not tying to develop 3-4 of them or are they trying to develop them all and letting the ones showing the most promise get the most playing time?

To assume after 2 summer league games that certain players should be given up on already is ridiculous. What's really funny is the poster who has complained about the lack of youth development for years and just a few weeks ago argued constantly that veterans Randolph, Allen and Carter needed to be let go to make room for the young players, is not worried about too much youth being developed. 

If you ask me work with them all and see who develops rather than making rash decisions early in summer league. San Antonio carries rookies all over their roster. Follow the example and hopefully the players we have will work their way into more and more PT as they develop. If they don't then trade them or give up on them but not this early. Training camp hasn't even begun yet for goodness sake. 

I may have mis read the op but I don't think he was giving up on anyone but just picked 3 that we should focus on right now. If we take the Spurs approach and just throw them out and see which ones separate themselves the media will twist it as a full rebuild and Wallace will get spooked and start making dumb moves to ensure we are still trying to win.

Would I like for us to just play the young guys like the spurs do and just let them figure it out well of course. Unfortunately the Spurs draft players that fit their system and we just don't do that so our young guys may have talent but if Fizz's system isn't suited for their talents he won't play them. We probably should refrain from comparing anything we are trying to do to the Spurs cause they have things figured out and we are still miles behind

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9 hours ago, Notorious O.D.K. said:

We have too many young players and some will be traded this summer. Don't rule out us helping to facilitate some type of trade as a third or fourth team, even the Carmelo trade

How can we help unless we are throwing in cheap contracts for cash our assets are in low demand

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6 minutes ago, Ndq0327 said:

I may have mis read the op but I don't think he was giving up on anyone but just picked 3 that we should focus on right now. If we take the Spurs approach and just throw them out and see which ones separate themselves the media will twist it as a full rebuild and Wallace will get spooked and start making dumb moves to ensure we are still trying to win.

Would I like for us to just play the young guys like the spurs do and just let them figure it out well of course. Unfortunately the Spurs draft players that fit their system and we just don't do that so our young guys may have talent but if Fizz's system isn't suited for their talents he won't play them. We probably should refrain from comparing anything we are trying to do to the Spurs cause they have things figured out and we are still miles behind

A very sad commentary. Not saying you aren't accurate but it is sad just the same. 

It's hard to compare the Grizzlies situation with the Spurs mainly because the team has had 12 coaches and 6 general managers while Pops has been coaching the Spurs. The Grizzlies have rotated 3 coaches and 3 front offices in the last 5 years alone! It would be foolish to assume the team is operating with the depth of conviction the Spurs have maintained. However it is a good goal to set moving forward. 

And I realize GTF wants the fans to start picking the winners right now. I am simply saying it is way too early to start listing winners and losers this season. It is best to wait until the staff has seen who is working the hardest and who earns the minutes before shortening the minutes of anyone. We have a minimum of 3 more summer league games, all of August, training camp and pre-season games before having an idea of who fits best and looks ready to compete.  

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Agreed that's why I hate when people bring up the Spurs in relation to what the Grizz are doing the only thing we have in common with them is we are a nba franchise in the same division. There are steps ahead of us in practically every other aspect.

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2 hours ago, grizzgolf said:

Rade. Please Rade!

I think Rade is going to benefit greatly from training camp. Practicing with the veterans will be much closer to his current experience than being thrown into the court with a bunch of players trying to showcase themselves.

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3 minutes ago, fanboyslim said:

I think Rade is going to benefit greatly from training camp. Practicing with the veterans will be much closer to his current experience than being thrown into the court with a bunch of players trying to showcase themselves.

Agreed 100% because summer league is just a bunch of guys playing look what I can do.

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Harrison and DD are my first two, followed closely behind by Seldon. And  because he is the great unknown, I want to see what Rade has fairly quickly so the team can make a decision to fish or cut bait pretty quickly. 

Sidenote: Harrison is not a PG and they should spend absolutely ZERO minutes on developing that skillset.

Should he continue to work on ballhandling and seeing the court? Absolutely!

For for this team to reach a real zenith, then it is time to recognize what the GM of the Warriors said...and I'm paraphrasing...don't worry about positions, just get basketball players. Figure out their roles once you have the talent.

Because of his size and ballhandling ability, Drew compliments Mike. And considering this thread is all about developing young players while maintaining playoff aspirations, we should recognize that all this is predicated upon  Mike and Marc producing at near All Star levels. With that in mind unless any of the young guys have ability to surpass Mike and Marc's level of talent and production, then the goal is developing guys to help maximize the ability of Mike and Marc to lead the team to victory.

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