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MEM Summer League Thread

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Allen    0
2 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

I've watched all the Grizzlies' summer league games and I see Davis positioning himself well for the most part on defense.  He had two blocks in the game which was the most by any player on either team.  What's the deal, he's a scrub if he doesn't block 10 shots a game?  No, he is not an aggressive offensive player, but that seems to be the only thing folks on here care about.  He's only 20 and I think he has shown he can be a useful contributor.

Some of you critics on these boards would be the absolute worst development coaches because you have no patience.

Basically. I think he showed that he can be a solid defensive big off the bench which is all we need him to be right now

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Ndq0327    0
3 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

Davis seems like the only thing close to a "big" on the team.  All the rest seem like "mediums".

That's fine he was the only big so he couldn't handle both Portland bigs by himself I can understand that but in its entirety his summer league play was disappointing

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3 minutes ago, Allen said:

Basically. I think he showed that he can be a solid defensive big off the bench which is all we need him to be right now

Exactly.

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I think D. Davis will be a good backup for Marc.  Brooks can give us some scoring punch if minutes are available which I doubt with Tyreke, Mac, Daniels, and Parsons.  Selden might be fool's gold.  Today Portland played NBA level D, he forced shots, ran into people and continued to look off wide open teammates.  Rade looks to have a lot of potential but most NBA guys do.  I haven't given up on Kobi because he is so young.  I have lost hope for Jarell Martin.

 

YO

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Just now, Ndq0327 said:

That's fine he was the only big so he couldn't handle both Portland bigs by himself I can understand that but in its entirety his summer league play was disappointing

I wasn't disappointed.  I'll admit I was hoping for more, but not disappointed.

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A couple more notes, with Brooks energy, aggression, and lack of far if he continues to work he will end up getting in the rotation within a couple years.  He can shoot it and is very athletic.  He is just super streaky and doesn't understand how to pick his spots yet.   The team just wants D.Davis to catch lobs and play D like Deandre.  That can from Coach Cyprien.  He filled that role well.  He is still very young and bigs take years so he still has a shot as a solid backup.

 

YO

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Just now, GrizzliesIQYO said:

I think D. Davis will be a good backup for Marc.  Brooks can give us some scoring punch if minutes are available which I doubt with Tyreke, Mac, Daniels, and Parsons.  Selden might be fool's gold.  Today Portland played NBA level D, he forced shots, ran into people and continued to look off wide open teammates.  Rade looks to have a lot of potential but most NBA guys do.  I haven't given up on Kobi because he is so young.  I have lost hope for Jarell Martin.

 

YO

I think Selden accepted the role as go-to-guy on the team which is partly why he forced things a little too much.  I do wish that he had passed a bit more.  Several times there were guys open on the wings.

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Ndq0327    0

How many minutes a game will he play as a solid defensive big off the bench? Go back and watch Warriors summer league game a watch Jordan Bell play that's what I would call a solid defensive big a guy with a motor that's going after anything put up around him a guy chasing down rebounds... Maybe we just have different standards 

 

 

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Ndq0327    0

We can revisit this convo after training camp and see what improvements have been made

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Allen    0

Bell is a 6'8 235 lb PF. Davis is a 6'11 250 lb center

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That was a tough loss :/ and it was only summer league, the thought of having to wait 3 months for another game.....

looking at the summer league

Selden - vastly improved, proved he belongs

DD - up and down. Was hoping for more but improved jumper

WB - wasn't as disappointed as many of you. He has talent but not sure he can run the point 

Rade - looked better today. Think he will be the big surprise of this bunch

Dillion - really like this kid.  He will contribute for our team

JMart - not looking good 

Hinter - want to see him on hustle (as well as washpun)

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Ndq0327    0
1 minute ago, Allen said:

Bell is a 6'8 235 lb PF. Davis is a 6'11 250 lb center

Yea and hes a better defensive presence... I expected DD to be like Whiteside when he played for us in the preseason.....like that is a real rim protector people change their shots going at him or Bell it's the same thing DD is just tall and can block the occasional shot you see how many goal tends he got this SL which shows his lack of IQ of when to actually try and block the shot. And his lack of athleticism to get to the shot before it was in goal tend territory..

 

I'm not giving him a pass cause he should have been better but I will wait till after preseason to hurry him with Martin and Wade

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grizz1016    0
36 minutes ago, smit-tay griz said:

I think Selden accepted the role as go-to-guy on the team which is partly why he forced things a little too much.  I do wish that he had passed a bit more.  Several times there were guys open on the wings.

He still had 4 assists though which IMO is really solid for a SG.

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Herodotus    0

I think it's important to point out that, with the exception of Caleb Swanigan, who was great, the Blazers were mostly rolling with guys who are a bit old for the Summer League. Whereas we played a core rotation of first-, second, and third-year guys, the Blazers were playing some guys out there who mostly had three or four years of experience.

Antonius Cleveland is 23 with four years of D-League experience.
Jorge Gutierrez is 29 or 30.
Jarnell Stokes is 23, drafted in 2014.
RJ Hunter is 24, drafted 2015
Swanigan, a rookie, and Jake Layman, a sophomore, were the only two first and second year players in their rotation.

 

Our rotation, by contrast, was

Wade Baldwin, 21 years old, drafted 2016
Wayne Selden, 23 years old, undrafted 2016
Rade Zagorac, 21 years old, drafted 2016
Jarell Martin, 23 years old, drafted 2015
Deyonta Davis, 21 years old, drafted 2016
Dillon Brooks, 21 years old, drafted 2017
Kobi Simmons, 20 years old, undrafted 2017.
 

 

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Paladin    0

What worries me most about the team is that no one is a consistent 3 point threat.  The summer league isn't that important, although, like everyone else, I would have liked to see us make the finals--and win.  But only Selden looks like immediate help.  Others may develop, but they haven't yet.  Baldwin still doesn't seem like a point guard, and his shot is suspect.   Simmons is closer to what we need now, and he is a year behind Baldwin in NBA experience. Davis show potential.  Zagorac can't compete with NBA players yet.  Hunter was better than Martin.  Brooks seems at times to have what it takes, just not yet.  I wish we had kept Jarnell Stokes instead of Martin.

This group may develop, but they aren't going to produce much this season.  The Grizzlies may still be one of the weakest 3 point teams, and the other teams in the west are getting better.

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fanboyslim    0
7 hours ago, Allen said:

A lot of guys have that type of demeanor but the are actually playing hard. I'm not sure if that's the case with Davis or not

I think it's the way he lets his arms hang down all the time, it looks like he's not trying. But it clearly doesn't affect his defense, so it's maybe just a personal quirk.

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chipc3    0
12 hours ago, Ndq0327 said:

We can revisit this convo after training camp and see what improvements have been made

Finally! A voice of reason in a horde of ignorance. 

It's just summer league people. Nothing here is intended to represent what will happen in training camp. It's to help the young guys take the next step to the pros is all. Davis had nice moments but all in all this isn't a good setting for a player of his skills. Selden looked great at times but I hope he realizes his role on the team is 3 and D not lead scorer. Baldwin showed he is still too careless with the ball and needs to address his shooting, especially mid range shots. 

I too wanted a title but it doesn't mean a thing in the bigger picture. Most of the players in this league won't be on NBA rosters this season and even fewer will be major contributors on an NBA team this year. How these players listen to the criticism and respond to the coaches notes are far more important than what they did on the court this past week. 

Time will tell and patience is needed with younger players, especially late first and second round draft picks. 

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Herodotus    0
1 hour ago, chipc3 said:

Finally! A voice of reason in a horde of ignorance. 

It's just summer league people. Nothing here is intended to represent what will happen in training camp. It's to help the young guys take the next step to the pros is all. Davis had nice moments but all in all this isn't a good setting for a player of his skills. Selden looked great at times but I hope he realizes his role on the team is 3 and D not lead scorer. Baldwin showed he is still too careless with the ball and needs to address his shooting, especially mid range shots. 

I too wanted a title but it doesn't mean a thing in the bigger picture. Most of the players in this league won't be on NBA rosters this season and even fewer will be major contributors on an NBA team this year. How these players listen to the criticism and respond to the coaches notes are far more important than what they did on the court this past week. 

Time will tell and patience is needed with younger players, especially late first and second round draft picks. 

I think Selden was trying to show that he can handle some scoring responsibilities on a second unit. He definitely knows he's not go-to scorer right now. But, last season he was on the roster because of his body and his defensive tenacity. So, he's trying to add another dimension with scoring punch. And I think he actually earned the chance to have the ball come his way on offense in the big leagues and see if he can still do it there. His shooting is still not there, but his athleticism, finishing, and creativity were all very good.

I think it's interesting that every time anyone from the organization is asked about Rade, they are unequivocal that he is going to be on the full roster. He started to look more comfortable towards the very end of summer league. I think it's obvious that they feel very, very comfortable in their scouting of him. Hollinger has invested a ton of time in going overseas and scouting and visiting. So, I think Summer League was just a peek at getting him acquainted with NBA-level athleticism and the speed and pace of the game. Hollinger said one time that standout speed and athleticism from the college game generally translates to the NBA and that, in terms of what generally translates from the international leagues, he said size, skill, and IQ. He said the main question with international guys is whether they have the athleticism to keep up in the NBA, but good size, skill, and IQ can often times make up for middling athleticism. I think Hollinger was pretty much describing their scouting report on Rade at that time. You could see in Summer League that he is huge for his position and that he has very good ball handling and court vision for a player his size. Hollinger also said this week that what they're eager to do with Rade to get him working with their development coaches on his three-point shot in addition to getting him on a specialized strength training regimen. So, I actually feel very confident that they know what they're doing with Rade and they know what their end goal is. They know he's a little slow and weak, but think he can make big strides in a professional system. His three-point shot is already pretty decent, but with development he can turn into a consistent three-point threat, and with his size at his position he won't have any trouble getting his shot off. And they already know he has great basketball IQ and can put the ball on the floor and facilitate. So, I started the week really thinking Rade was disappointing, but after seeing him get more comfortable as the week went on, I can actually see the potential there with him and that it's not so far away as it seemed at the beginning of SL.

Dillon Brooks is a similar read. His below-average athleticism looked like a huge, insurmountable barrier at the beginning of SL, but he also grew more comfortable as the week went on. I still don't know if he's a roster guy, but I can see it being much more likely and reasonable than at first glance. Like with Rade, it's his skill level that makes the difference. He just knows how to play basketball. His shooting mechanics are a bit strange and he is not consistent enough, but again, the Grizzlies seem to think that if they can work with him on that shot, that he can be three-point shooting wing who possesses solid IQ, ball skills, and scoring instincts. So, in terms of whether he's a prospect worth holding onto and developing, Brooks seems to have proven himself.

I think Wade Baldwin is getting unfairly criticized on these boards. Some people are on this thing about, "He's not a PG." That is pretty much a criticism without a meaning - it's overly vague and condemns everything about him. It also makes (undefined) assumptions about what exactly a "PG" even is. And that argument is just tedious, not to mention almost entirely irrelevant to Baldwin himself and his development. I said earlier that Baldwin, "plays like an idiot." I still think that's true, but I thought he actually made strides in that department as the week went on. It could be because Cyprian was able to gain more control and instill more cohesion within the team as the week went on, but the less the games looked like a cocaine-fueled track meet, the more in control Baldwin looked. He can advance the ball, of course, without question. Once across the line, as rarely as this actually happened, he was more than capable of getting the team into the set. When the ball was kicked back to him out of an offensive action, he seems to have the ability to stick a catch-and-shoot jumper. His consistency needs work there, but he didn't look hopeless. Where he really struggled was as a facilitator. Out of the pick and roll, what I really liked was his probing for the mid-range jumper. That looked professional, in my opinion. What he was terrible at was choosing when to attack out of the pick and roll, finishing at the rim, and hitting the roll man. Out of the pick-and-pops he hit the pop man just fine. And, of course, when he attacked the rim in general it was an almost Tony Allen-esque circus as to what result you might get - he might end up with a turnover for over-penetrating with no idea where the open might actually appear, he might end up with a blown forced layup, he might end up with free throws on a bailout-type foul situation, or he might end up with a fairly spectacular finish that makes you think he might actually end up being great - you just never know. After watching all week, I think it's much too early to declare the Baldwin experiment over. His all-around and defensive game is not to be underrated either. Not every point guard in the Summer League is grabbing 10 rebounds in a game. Baldwin is not so far away from having the PG fundamentals down and everything about what he has struggled with is coachable (excepting maybe the finishing at the rim - which took Mike Conley several years to figure out). It all depends on his attitude, but with the right development, Baldwin looks to me like he could be a bottom-of-the-rotation guy with another year.

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chipc3    0

We'll know more about Rade, Books, Davis, Baldwin and the rest later. Summer league didn't show anyone anything other than what people wanted to see. People looking for Davis to be a certain type of player saw that (at least for one game). People wanted to see Selden play a certain way saw that. Even people wanting to see Baldwin play a certain way saw glimpses at least of that. 

However, summer league success or failure doesn't translate into NBA success of failure very directly. 

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Herodotus    0

Come on, Chip. Summer League doesn't show, "anything?" You're not usually so loose with your words. Absolute statements are typically what get people into trouble. Summer League shows SOMETHING. If it didn't show, "anything," there wouldn't be a Summer League at all, because it would be completely useless, not just to fans, but to GMs, coaches, players, and the league office. Again, a debate about the relative value of Summer League really isn't all that interesting nor necessary. What we saw on the court with the young Grizzlies prospects was fun and interesting to discuss, at the very least. And there is something there to discuss, after all.

For example, Geoff Calkins to this day will tell you that Jordan Adams, "was never an NBA player." He got this, he says, from Dave Joerger, who hated Adams from the beginning, and as such, never played him any meaningful minutes in an NBA game and never worked to develop him. Jordan Adams' career was derailed by an injury, of course - much of his tenure with the Grizzlies was marred by lingering knee injuries and he never really recovered from that, but not before he showed out at summer league the summer he was drafted and over-performed people's expectations. If I remember correctly, he shared an MVP trophy with one Kentavius Caldwell-Pope. And in a head-to-head with KCP that summer - again, if memory serves - Adams was his peer. From there, Adams went on to receive almost no burn from Joerger, got injured soon thereafter, and basically never resurfaced. And the takeaway narrative from that whole experience was, for whatever reason, "Well, Adams was never really an NBA player to begin with." Geoff Calkins sincerely believes this, because Joerger believed it. And we would have no choice but to just take their word for it, except that in one of Adams' only real opportunities to show whether he was an NBA-caliber player/prospect, as one of the youngest players on the SL court, he put in an MVP performance. My point is, the Summer League clearly and actually matters - which is a proposition I can't believe actually has to be defended, but what the heck, this is the Grizzlies Message Boards - and especially for the players. In some cases, players clearly disprove what has been believed and said about them up to that moment and in some cases they get a very unique opportunity to be scrutinized on their merits against equal competition. My point with the Jordan Adams story is NOT that he absolutely would have developed into a rotation player with a long(er) NBA career, but that his SUMMER LEAGUE experience was very relevant and important, because it was one of the only times we ever got to see him, and in my opinion, it absolutely flies in the face of what the public organizational narrative about him became and continues to be. So, when we look back on what happened to Jordan Adams, and Calkins and everyone for some reason wants the fan base to believe, "Well, he was never really an NBA-caliber player to begin with, he had no hope of being in the NBA" as if it were an open and shut case, that SL performance is still there, recorded, and is relevant to any discussion about what happened to Adams' career as well as what was going on inside the Grizzlies front office at that time (he also has 11 D-League performances on record). 

(For the record, my belief is that Adams was a bordeline prospect - like almost all of our late-first round and second round prospects over the past several years -  who really needed developing to see what we had, but didn't fit Joerger's vision, and Joerger, in one of his many clashes with the Grizzlies front office, basically killed any chance Adams had of a career. The injury was his ultimate demise, of course, but Joerger's fingerprints on the lack of priority given to Adams' development are conspicuous.)

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lsugrizzfan    0
15 hours ago, Ndq0327 said:

How many minutes a game will he play as a solid defensive big off the bench? Go back and watch Warriors summer league game a watch Jordan Bell play that's what I would call a solid defensive big a guy with a motor that's going after anything put up around him a guy chasing down rebounds... Maybe we just have different standards 

 

 

When making this comparison, do not forget that Bell is 2 years older than Davis. Age matters; it matters even more with big men who usually take a little more time to develop.

14 hours ago, Ndq0327 said:

We can revisit this convo after training camp and see what improvements have been made

Best approach for everyone to take

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chipc3    0
3 hours ago, chipc3 said:

We'll know more about Rade, Books, Davis, Baldwin and the rest later. Summer league didn't show anyone anything other than what people wanted to see. People looking for Davis to be a certain type of player saw that (at least for one game). People wanted to see Selden play a certain way saw that. Even people wanting to see Baldwin play a certain way saw glimpses at least of that. 

However, summer league success or failure doesn't translate into NBA success of failure very directly. 

 

2 hours ago, Herodotus said:

Come on, Chip. Summer League doesn't show, "anything?" You're not usually so loose with your words. Absolute statements are typically what get people into trouble. Summer League shows SOMETHING. If it didn't show, "anything," there wouldn't be a Summer League at all, because it would be completely useless, not just to fans, but to GMs, coaches, players, and the league office. Again, a debate about the relative value of Summer League really isn't all that interesting nor necessary. What we saw on the court with the young Grizzlies prospects was fun and interesting to discuss, at the very least. And there is something there to discuss, after all.

For example, Geoff Calkins to this day will tell you that Jordan Adams, "was never an NBA player." He got this, he says, from Dave Joerger, who hated Adams from the beginning, and as such, never played him any meaningful minutes in an NBA game and never worked to develop him. Jordan Adams' career was derailed by an injury, of course - much of his tenure with the Grizzlies was marred by lingering knee injuries and he never really recovered from that, but not before he showed out at summer league the summer he was drafted and over-performed people's expectations. If I remember correctly, he shared an MVP trophy with one Kentavius Caldwell-Pope. And in a head-to-head with KCP that summer - again, if memory serves - Adams was his peer. From there, Adams went on to receive almost no burn from Joerger, got injured soon thereafter, and basically never resurfaced. And the takeaway narrative from that whole experience was, for whatever reason, "Well, Adams was never really an NBA player to begin with." Geoff Calkins sincerely believes this, because Joerger believed it. And we would have no choice but to just take their word for it, except that in one of Adams' only real opportunities to show whether he was an NBA-caliber player/prospect, as one of the youngest players on the SL court, he put in an MVP performance. My point is, the Summer League clearly and actually matters - which is a proposition I can't believe actually has to be defended, but what the heck, this is the Grizzlies Message Boards - and especially for the players. In some cases, players clearly disprove what has been believed and said about them up to that moment and in some cases they get a very unique opportunity to be scrutinized on their merits against equal competition. My point with the Jordan Adams story is NOT that he absolutely would have developed into a rotation player with a long(er) NBA career, but that his SUMMER LEAGUE experience was very relevant and important, because it was one of the only times we ever got to see him, and in my opinion, it absolutely flies in the face of what the public organizational narrative about him became and continues to be. So, when we look back on what happened to Jordan Adams, and Calkins and everyone for some reason wants the fan base to believe, "Well, he was never really an NBA-caliber player to begin with, he had no hope of being in the NBA" as if it were an open and shut case, that SL performance is still there, recorded, and is relevant to any discussion about what happened to Adams' career as well as what was going on inside the Grizzlies front office at that time (he also has 11 D-League performances on record). 

(For the record, my belief is that Adams was a bordeline prospect - like almost all of our late-first round and second round prospects over the past several years -  who really needed developing to see what we had, but didn't fit Joerger's vision, and Joerger, in one of his many clashes with the Grizzlies front office, basically killed any chance Adams had of a career. The injury was his ultimate demise, of course, but Joerger's fingerprints on the lack of priority given to Adams' development are conspicuous.)

I was referring to the fans not the NBA execs when I said summer league only shows what people want to see. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. 

However, to assume summer league means anything more to execs than a way to "discover" players who slipped in the draft is silly. I've never heard of anyone saying they gave up on their draft pick because of the way he played in summer league. Nor have I heard of anyone expressing surprise about a player they drafted after watching the summer league. To assume summer league means anything beyond a stepping stone from college and Europe to the NBA game is reading too much into it. That's why teams barely practice for a week, aren't coached by head coaches (most often) and sometimes not even assistant coaches. Glynn Cyprien is the Memphis Hustle's head coach. I believe that should say a lot about how the Grizzlies Front Office views summer league. 

I don't remember Jordan Adams ever being an MVP of the Summer League either. He averaged 16 PPG in 2015 when the Grizzlies won the title but Aaron Gordan was MVP of the Orlando Summer League that summer. Elfrid Payton won the MVP in 2014 when Orlando defeated Memphis in the finals. I don't know when you remembered KCP and JA holding a trophy together. 

I was against drafting Jordan Adams as I felt Rodney Hood addressed team needs better but was willing to give him a chance. It didn't pan out due to injuries, playing time or simply that he wasn't that good. Everyone has opinions on why Adams failed in Memphis. That doesn't mean any of them are correct. 

More importantly, you also haven't shown how summer league matters.

You mention Jordan Adams but clearly summer league didn't help him get playing time in the NBA. Does it mean something to undrafted players or players trying to get a 2nd chance? Yes. You may be able catch someone's attention and get a camp invite. It's possible at training camp you can earn a roster spot. I'll even say it is conceivable someone could become a starter, all-star or Hall of Fame player if you'd like.

Can you give me an example of this happening however? 

When referring to drafted players, summer league won't matter in regards to getting a contract or making a team. For undrafted players summer league at best can get you a training camp invite. When evaluating a drafted players performance it means very little. I may have misspoke by saying it means nothing but again I was referring to evaluation of a drafted players performance and not unsigned and undrafted players getting invited to training camps. 

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Davis C-: He is supposed to gobble boards and rim protect. He didn't do so well with that. He seems slow to recognize whats coming at him, and I think his footspeed isn't all the great either. He isn't getting into position to make the plays we need. He had some good jump shooting games, but didn't show any offensive progression other than that. He didn't show that he could be counted on for rotation mpgs.

Zagorac C: I hoped Rade would show he was ready to put his advanced skillset into the rotation year one. Sadly, he showed that coming over from Europe is harder than people give it credit for. He had trouble adjusting to the speed on the floor, and looked pensive. The pensiveness is understandable, but i'm worried about how relatively slow he looked. He was able to make some really nice passes when he got a chance to work w/ the ball, and he seemed to just know how to work the game. I just think he's a year a way from contributing.

Simmons B: Looks like he has some tools. I think he showed he's worth a 2way.

Baldwin D: He didn't look like a PG very often, and wasn't an effective scorer either. What is Baldwin good at? I've never known, and I'm still not sure. He did seem improved from last SL and the playoffs, but I don't see him beating out Harrison for mpgs and that isn't saying a lot. I did notice that he was a consistent contributor on the boards so that's something positive.

Martin D-: 3rd year player still seems lost. He had some good games shooting and I think he plays hard, but I just can't see him stepping into J. Green's role with a BBIQ soo low. No progession, didn't show he can be counted on.

Brooks B+: I'm not really a fan of Brooks', but he did as well or better than could be expected. There is a jump in competition b/t NCAA and SL, and Brooks made it. I still think he will falter jumping to the league. He makes smart instinctive plays for lose balls and at both ends and he can shoot. We shall see...

Raab C-: DNP. I wanna see muh rookie. I feel cheated! I doubt i'll get to see him all season.

Seldon A+: Wayne Seldon will be our starting SG next season. We already had seen him guard and play team D and finish at the rim in the playoffs and stretch run. What we hadn't seen was him knocking in 3s and breaking people down off the dribble. Well, he knocked in 3s and broke people down off the dribble in SL. He also made a lot of clever passes of the dribble which a lot of guys can't do. The shooting i'm sure will translate. I'm skeptical about him working off the dribble b/c he really is not quick. I think he mostly uses his strength and length to get shots up. Basically what we've got is a very good and proven defender who has now shown he can make 3s and maybe do more... That alone is better than McLemore, Evans, and Daniels. Of course that's not really saying a lot, but he was definitely done much more than expected in this SL.

Overall B: I'm disappointed in Baldwin and Davis, and very disappointed in Martin. Rade got his feet wet and probably learned a lot, but Raab didn't get that chance so kind of a wash there. Brooks did well, but it is really just Seldon who gives the team a high grade. You could really see the improvement and you can tell he'll be a major player for us starting this year.

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Allen    0

I dont think Selden should get an A+ after the last game. I would give him an A.

But Chip what is the difference between summer league and the Gleague?

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